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Economy watch

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Copper Dragon
Bwfc1958
Bread2.0
bwfc71
karlypants
Norpig
Reebok Trotter
Chairmanda
xmiles
Sluffy
Bollotom2014
boltonbonce
whatsgoingon
Natasha Whittam
okocha
scottjames30
NickFazer
gloswhite
wanderlust
23 posters

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211Economy watch - Page 12 Empty Re: Economy watch Mon Aug 29 2016, 20:04

NickFazer

NickFazer
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf

Hard to disagree with any of that okocha.

212Economy watch - Page 12 Empty Re: Economy watch Mon Aug 29 2016, 20:06

bwfc71

bwfc71
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo

I agree with Bread

I have come across many voters who voted to leave but their reasons are just not rational and cannot happen.

They voted to leave to stop Muslims for entering our country and increasing the numbers for ISIS! (even though the majority would need visas to get here as they come from outside the EU and actually come from fellow Commonwealth countries!!!)

They voted to get rid of all other EU citizens who live, and work, here even straight after the result they were shocked that they were not being forced to leave straight away! (the typical xenophobe attitude to people who actually want to make a better life here and actually help to create jobs here and contribute to the economy)

They voted so their wives can have a high powered vacuum cleaner - yet forgetting that all electrical companies have to comply to the EU laws which means less power being used but getting all scientist to have the same performance as now - and Dyson does that very well - so in or out of the EU these companies will not make UK only products as it wouldn't be cost effective!

Very few people I have come across have had a rational reason for wanting to leave the EU!

The above reasoning are actually all true and that has come from many of the Leavers I have come across!!!!

213Economy watch - Page 12 Empty Re: Economy watch Mon Aug 29 2016, 20:24

Guest


Guest

Okocha, the author of that article needs to specify how exactly the shutting of businesses and factories in poorer areas is the fault of the EU.

That's the integral difference for me, most on here agree with the issues this country faces but there's a divide over what's caused them. For me successive governments since Thatcher have chosen to dismantle manufacturing in this country in favour of financial services, I'm yet to be told how the Eu are responsible for that.

Could you post the original link in fact please Okocha?

214Economy watch - Page 12 Empty Re: Economy watch Mon Aug 29 2016, 21:03

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Excellent piece by Gary Younge,from June 30th is worthy of another read.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/30/brexit-disaster-decades-in-the-making

215Economy watch - Page 12 Empty Re: Economy watch Mon Aug 29 2016, 21:32

okocha

okocha
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf

BWFC 1874: Bonce has provided the link above. Brilliant, long article.....balanced and realistic, with a terrific, knowledgeable grasp of many relevant issues. Enjoy!

216Economy watch - Page 12 Empty Re: Economy watch Mon Aug 29 2016, 22:51

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha

"The choice before us now is whether we are finally ready to confront the issues that we have blissfully denied and engage with the communities we have carelessly ignored."

Unfortunately with a Tory government and the prospect of no effective opposition thanks to Corbyn what are the chances of that happening? Once the EU subsidies to the regions cease it will only get worse.

217Economy watch - Page 12 Empty Re: Economy watch Mon Aug 29 2016, 22:55

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha

Here's how the EU deal with multi-national corporations. Contrast that with the sweetheart deals they get in this country.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37216176

218Economy watch - Page 12 Empty Re: Economy watch Tue Aug 30 2016, 10:29

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

okocha wrote:Wow! Please could you clarify one or two of your assertions, Wander?

Would a re-run produce a different outcome?
Sure. Here is the Financial Times post Brexit data demographic analysis which I've selected for it's lack of bias and which clearly shows that Leave voters...

  • were on average less educated than Remain voters
  • were less likely to hold a passport or have travelled abroad
  • were less likely to be young
  • were more likely to come from low income areas

Ironically, the Leave vote was strongest in the areas most economically dependent on the EU.
The total population is 65 million of which 11 million are children under 14. Around 2 million are 14 to 16 and the rest are old enough to work and die in a war for us.
However, unlike the Scottish referendum they were not allowed to vote. Of those more than 75% would have voted Remain and that would have swung the vote.

Even if we accept the unexplained exclusion of the 16 to 18 year olds that leaves approximately 52 million British adults of whom 17.2 million voted to Leave - just a third of adults but nearer a quarter of the total population - hardly overwhelming.

I understand nobody likes to be duped and lied to. It's natural for people who have been conned to play down the impact or even deny it so I totally understand why Leave voters are defensive and want to gloss over what happened.

Unfortunately it has happened and it seems that the British people are happy to live with a decision taken on the basis of false information - unusual because there would be an  outcry in any other area of political life - so we have to get on with it and accept what comes - which so far is pretty disastrous and there's a helluva long way to go yet.

219Economy watch - Page 12 Empty Re: Economy watch Tue Aug 30 2016, 11:05

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha

Excellent post WL!

220Economy watch - Page 12 Empty Re: Economy watch Tue Aug 30 2016, 12:10

okocha

okocha
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf

You've answered one or two, but not all, of my questions, Wander- for example, how was the referendum "rigged"?

If I was play devil's advocate in response to the FT, I'd say "less likely" is speculative and no more conclusive than the opinion polls beforehand which were proved wildly wrong. HYS on BBC was far more accurate about the outcome.

You don't deal with the lies and scare-mongering of Remain's educated establishment figures.

The Spectator, on the other hand, does:

"It has been more than a month since the UK voted to leave the European Union — but something is missing. Where is the economic collapse? What of EUpocalypse Now? Where is the Brexageddon that we were promised? 


To the shock of many — not least business titans who bankrolled the Remain campaign — the instant collapse doesn’t seem to be happening. The UK economy is, for now at least, taking Brexit in its stride.


The oft-predicted job losses? During the three weeks from 23 June, job listings were up 150,000 compared to the same period last year according to Reed Group, a recruitment consultant. ‘That’s an 8 per cent rise,’ says James Reed, its chairman. ‘The vote hasn’t affected things — people are still hiring.’


How about all those international banks quitting the City of London? Last week the US banking thoroughbred Wells Fargo forked out £300 million for a new European headquarters — in London. Since Brexit, the likes of Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan have hailed the City as ‘one of the most attractive places in the world to do business’, citing its ‘stable legal system’ and ‘deep liquid capital markets unmatched anywhere in Europe’.


But surely leaving the EU is so rash it’ll spark financial collapse? While UK stocks took a hit straight after the referendum, the FTSE 100 share index is now 6 per cent higher than before we voted. Even the FTSE 250, comprised of smaller, more UK-centric firms, has almost completed its recovery."




Obviously, some time has elapsed since the Spectator article but the main thrust of the writer's contention remains true; the economic meltdown predicted by Osborne and the like has not materialised. Even "experts" find it hard to predict what will happen from here.


One of the many reasons for the majority to vote Leave has been underlined today with the illegal interference of the EU into Irish economic affairs, infuriating the Irish Finance Minister. Losing control of the ability to determine our own affairs and laws was a contributing factor in the decision to leave. 

221Economy watch - Page 12 Empty Re: Economy watch Tue Aug 30 2016, 12:17

okocha

okocha
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf

Incidentally, following the EU's investigation of Apple and Ireland's Tax services - I am looking forward to the EU finally releasing its financial statements for the past 15 years...

222Economy watch - Page 12 Empty Re: Economy watch Tue Aug 30 2016, 12:22

Bread2.0

Bread2.0
Andy Walker
Andy Walker

Hang on then.....just so we're clear:

The EU holding big businesses such as Apple accountable for settling their tax liabilities in full and not exploiting loopholes in the system which allow them to avoid paying what they really owe is somehow a "bad thing" now, is it?

Righto.....!

223Economy watch - Page 12 Empty Re: Economy watch Tue Aug 30 2016, 12:40

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha

In the interest of fairness okocha it would be good to see Brexit fans give a straightforward answer to some of the questions they have been repeatedly asked but never answered on this forum. To take just three:

1. how is voting the way the owners of the Times, Sun, Daily Mail, Telegraph, Boris and Farage want voting against the establishment?

2. how likely is it that voting the way they want you to is going to be good for most people in this country?

3. do you honestly believe that a UK outside the EU is going to be more likely to stand up to big business, protect workers' rights and look after the environment?

I await replies with interest but I am not holding my breath as most Brexit fans seem to want to avoid these issues whilst studiously avoiding remembering all the big lies in the Brexit campaign (£350m a week for the NHS, Turkey about to join the EU, leaving the EU means we can stop all immigration, etc).

224Economy watch - Page 12 Empty Re: Economy watch Tue Aug 30 2016, 12:41

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

okocha wrote:You've answered one or two, but not all, of my questions, Wander- for example, how was the referendum "rigged"?

If I was play devil's advocate in response to the FT, I'd say "less likely" is speculative and no more conclusive than the opinion polls beforehand which were proved wildly wrong. HYS on BBC was far more accurate about the outcome.

You don't deal with the lies and scare-mongering of Remain's educated establishment figures.

The Spectator, on the other hand, does:

The UK economy is, for now at least, taking Brexit in its stride.

I'm afraid that big letters doesn't make this any less a load of tosh.
We are still in the EU if you hadn't noticed!

225Economy watch - Page 12 Empty Re: Economy watch Tue Aug 30 2016, 15:19

okocha

okocha
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf

Bread2.0 wrote:Hang on then.....just so we're clear:

The EU holding big businesses such as Apple accountable for settling their tax liabilities in full and not exploiting loopholes in the system which allow them to avoid paying what they really owe is somehow a "bad thing" now, is it?

Righto.....!
Well, the Irish Finance Minister clearly thinks so, Bread: ""I disagree profoundly with the Commission," said Ireland's finance minister, Michael Noonan, in a statement.
"The decision leaves me with no choice but to seek cabinet approval to appeal. This is necessary to defend the integrity of our tax system; to provide tax certainty to business; and to challenge the encroachment of EU state aid rules into the sovereign member state competence of taxation."

226Economy watch - Page 12 Empty Re: Economy watch Tue Aug 30 2016, 15:26

Guest


Guest

Of course the Irish finance minister agrees with it they gave Apple the deal in the first place so they could reap the benefits whilst the rest of the EU suffered as a result. 

All of the profits from Apple Stores all over Europe go directly to their head sales office in Dublin where they paid 50 Euros tax on every Million Euro profit, then those profits were sent back to the US for Apple's R&D development.

Apple have used the EU's tax rules to fiddle a situation where they cheat every member state out of the tax earned in their country to the one location they agree a sweetheart deal before sending the money back!

They've royally taken the piss and the Tory government should take notes from the EU on how to deal with tax avoidance.

227Economy watch - Page 12 Empty Re: Economy watch Tue Aug 30 2016, 15:37

okocha

okocha
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf

xmiles wrote:In the interest of fairness okocha it would be good to see Brexit fans give a straightforward answer to some of the questions they have been repeatedly asked but never answered on this forum. To take just three:

1. how is voting the way the owners of the Times, Sun, Daily Mail, Telegraph, Boris and Farage want voting against the establishment?

2. how likely is it that voting the way they want you to is going to be good for most people in this country?

3. do you honestly believe that a UK outside the EU is going to be more likely to stand up to big business, protect workers' rights and look after the environment?  

I await replies with interest but I am not holding my breath as most Brexit fans seem to want to avoid these issues whilst studiously avoiding remembering all the big lies in the Brexit campaign (£350m a week for the NHS, Turkey about to join the EU, leaving the EU means we can stop all immigration, etc).
I'm just playing Devil's advocate, xmiles. I didn't vote Brexit, remember! 

But you know that the establishment here means Cameron, Osborne and the rest of the Tories who backed the PM. There were dodgy characters on both sides, who lied, exaggerated, created spin etc.

As for points 2 and 3, it remains to be see how well the government manages the situation. 

This has always been my point: i.e. that it is impossible to foresee exactly how things will turn out because there too many imponderables. Neither wise men nor idiots, of whom there are many on both sides, can be sure they have voted the right way.

DC is to blame for the uncertainty, by holding a referendum simply to satisfy the grumbling back-benchers, and then running away once the vote did not go his way, having misjudged the electorate.

(Meanwhile, his cronyism continues unabated.)

I remember that you have said the exact same thing about Cameron's role in the whole affair, xmiles

228Economy watch - Page 12 Empty Re: Economy watch Tue Aug 30 2016, 15:41

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha

okocha wrote:
xmiles wrote:In the interest of fairness okocha it would be good to see Brexit fans give a straightforward answer to some of the questions they have been repeatedly asked but never answered on this forum. To take just three:

1. how is voting the way the owners of the Times, Sun, Daily Mail, Telegraph, Boris and Farage want voting against the establishment?

2. how likely is it that voting the way they want you to is going to be good for most people in this country?

3. do you honestly believe that a UK outside the EU is going to be more likely to stand up to big business, protect workers' rights and look after the environment?  

I await replies with interest but I am not holding my breath as most Brexit fans seem to want to avoid these issues whilst studiously avoiding remembering all the big lies in the Brexit campaign (£350m a week for the NHS, Turkey about to join the EU, leaving the EU means we can stop all immigration, etc).
I'm just playing Devil's advocate, xmiles. I didn't vote Brexit, remember! 

But you know that the establishment here means Cameron, Osborne and the rest of the Tories who backed the PM. There were dodgy characters on both sides, who lied, exaggerated, created spin etc.

As for points 2 and 3, it remains to be see how well the government manages the situation. 

This has always been my point: i.e. that it is impossible to foresee exactly how things will turn out because there too many imponderables. Neither wise men nor idiots, of whom there are many on both sides, can be sure they have voted the right way.

DC is to blame for the uncertainty, by holding a referendum simply to satisfy the grumbling back-benchers, and then running away once the vote did not go his way, having misjudged the electorate.

(Meanwhile, his cronyism continues unabated.)

I remember that you have said the exact same thing about Cameron's role in the whole affair, xmiles

I appreciate you playing Devil's advocate okocha because you can never get an answer out of those who did vote leave. Smile

229Economy watch - Page 12 Empty Re: Economy watch Tue Aug 30 2016, 15:48

okocha

okocha
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf

wanderlust wrote:
okocha wrote:You've answered one or two, but not all, of my questions, Wander- for example, how was the referendum "rigged"?

If I was play devil's advocate in response to the FT, I'd say "less likely" is speculative and no more conclusive than the opinion polls beforehand which were proved wildly wrong. HYS on BBC was far more accurate about the outcome.

You don't deal with the lies and scare-mongering of Remain's educated establishment figures.

The Spectator, on the other hand, does:

The UK economy is, for now at least, taking Brexit in its stride.

I'm afraid that big letters doesn't make this any less a load of tosh.
We are still in the EU if you hadn't noticed!
It's the Spectator, not me, that wrote these words....hardly a publication renowned for being "a load of tosh". I'm simply trying to balance the argument. I'm not a brexiter! 
You seem to be overlooking the rest of the article, especially the words "for now at least". They were in large bold print because that's the way they appeared after copying and pasting.
One or two of your earlier assertions remain unanswered.

230Economy watch - Page 12 Empty Re: Economy watch Tue Aug 30 2016, 16:32

Bollotom2014

Bollotom2014
Andy Walker
Andy Walker

Right. Let's go round one more time.  Laughing

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