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Brexit - A new twist!

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31 Re: Brexit - A new twist! on Thu Nov 03 2016, 20:26

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
xmiles wrote:Just to clarify one point: when I referred to "crayon munching brexiteers" I did not mean to imply that all those who voted for Brexit were crayon munchers. Unfortunately this was an attempted humourous reference to Bread's previous use of the term. Nevertheless it has to be said that some people who voted for Brexit are certifiable morons.

Hope that clears up any confusion.

Too late, you've already aligned yourself with the tosspot twins. Enjoy.

32 Re: Brexit - A new twist! on Thu Nov 03 2016, 20:29

Bread2.0

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Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Is a tosspot twin worse than a bumchum?

Just so I know how offended to be.

Cheers in advance.

33 Re: Brexit - A new twist! on Thu Nov 03 2016, 20:33

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
What does it matter, you're in both groups.

34 Re: Brexit - A new twist! on Thu Nov 03 2016, 20:37

Soul Kitchen

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Tosspot? Ffs can you call me something I've not been labelled before?

35 Re: Brexit - A new twist! on Thu Nov 03 2016, 20:42

finlaymcdanger


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Natasha Whittam wrote:With almost any major decision in history comes heartache, the good times don't come easily. It might be a huge disaster, it might be the best thing we ever did....the truth is no one knows, especially the three wankers above.

Should events swing in your favour, what are you most looking forward to post Brexit?

36 Re: Brexit - A new twist! on Thu Nov 03 2016, 20:42

NickFazer

avatar
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
What this actually means is that democracy in this country is alive and kicking and is something we should all be proud of, which ever way you voted in the referendum. Brussels's should take note. I voted to Leave but was not happy for Article 50 to be triggered without Parliamentary scrutiny, it was an act of Parliament that took us in and so it is correct that one should take us out. 

Soul Kitchen asked what Besides wanted / expected, I have proclaimed my position on that previously in the Economy Watch Thread but in brief these are some of the reasons I voted Leave.

1 EU Ever closer Union Despite being favour or co-operating on matters of trade  / security / research etc I disagree with the creation of a supranational state, it is in my view unworkable especially when it's membership is of 28 nations with diverse cultures / economies and aspirations. You can have cooperation without all the beaurocracy and institutions of a nation state. It may be that even the commission would now accept that this aim of complete political and economic integration is now dead.

2 The Euro. Imposing a common currency across 19 diverse economies has not worked well. Time will tell but the currency union has been a drag on the economies of the EU and especially those in the Eurozone. Not having a flexible currency has been a drag on economic performance before 2008 and has greatly hindered Eurozone recovery especially since. Without greater integration in to one centralised state with tax raising and spending powers the Euro as a currency is flawed.

3 Schengen A nice idea in a safe peaceful world but not in this one.

4 Democracy. That word again, when power is concentrated with a small group that is unelected and largely unaccountable then it will be abused. The EU Commission is both of these and is where the real power is concentrated.

5 Prosperity of its Citizens. The EU has failed to increase prosperity among the general population of the EU, unless you are already wealthy that is. Standards of living have remained static at best and growth is strangled by an overbearing beaurocracy aided and abetted by a failing currency union. Years of little to no growth, high unemployment especially among the young and austerity measures imposed while the ECB throws billions at propping up the Euro.

In my view the EU is no longer fit for purpose and lost direction and purpose especially since it expanded its membership from a manageable 9 to 27, pissed off the Russians, condemned Greece to generations of austerity without any hope of recovery until the debts are written off and failed to come up with any measures to cope with a migrant invasion except opening the doors.

So, those are my views. I would be interested to hear how those in favour of remaining in see how the EU intends to resolve some of these issues.

But for now pass me another crayon

37 Re: Brexit - A new twist! on Thu Nov 03 2016, 20:51

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
finlaymcdanger wrote:Should events swing in your favour, what are you most looking forward to post Brexit?

Being able to say "I told you so".

38 Re: Brexit - A new twist! on Thu Nov 03 2016, 20:51

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
NickFazer wrote:But for now pass me another crayon

Made me chuckle that did.

39 Re: Brexit - A new twist! on Thu Nov 03 2016, 20:58

Bread2.0

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Andy Walker
Andy Walker
I'm not explaining the crayon thing again.

If you don't get it by now, you can all fuck off....

40 Re: Brexit - A new twist! on Thu Nov 03 2016, 21:18

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
I'm with Nick and Nat. I think, in all fairness, Nick's response is far more balanced than the childish digs from the the aptly named Remoaners.

41 Re: Brexit - A new twist! on Thu Nov 03 2016, 21:19

karlypants

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
gloswhite wrote:I'm with Nick and Nat. I think, in all fairness, Nick's response is far more balanced than the childish digs from the the aptly named Remoaners.
:clap:

42 Re: Brexit - A new twist! on Thu Nov 03 2016, 21:30

finlaymcdanger


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Natasha Whittam wrote:
finlaymcdanger wrote:Should events swing in your favour, what are you most looking forward to post Brexit?

Being able to say "I told you so".

Being serious for a moment though. What are you most excited about?

43 Re: Brexit - A new twist! on Thu Nov 03 2016, 21:47

NickFazer

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Andy Walker
Andy Walker
At the end of the day we live in a democracy or something approaching one at least, we should be having these debates, in the open, even if from the outside we sometimes look like we are completely clueless and making it up as we go along, its the sign of a healthy society. The point I am trying to make is that when all the emotion is taken out of it and the pros and cons are weighed a sensible conclusion will in all probability be reached. The UK has always had a different view the EU and it's aims and ideals because we are an island and we haven't been comfortable with the federalist and protectionist tendencies of the some of the continental countries either and they aren't comfortable with our free market ideals but we agree on more than we disagree and we still need to trade and cooperate together. CETA has set a precedent in some ways so a deal not involving free movement has been agreed with a nation outside of the EU so the government needs to set out a strategy and put it before Parliament in the proper way and then we can all get on with it.

44 Re: Brexit - A new twist! on Thu Nov 03 2016, 21:52

Bread2.0

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Andy Walker
Andy Walker
karlypants wrote:
gloswhite wrote:I'm with Nick and Nat. I think, in all fairness, Nick's response is far more balanced than the childish digs from the the aptly named Remoaners.
:clap:

I sometimes think you'd clap at anything.

If you saw a cat doing a massive poo and you found it impressive, would you give it a round of applause?

45 Re: Brexit - A new twist! on Thu Nov 03 2016, 21:57

karlypants

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Bread2.0 wrote:
karlypants wrote:
gloswhite wrote:I'm with Nick and Nat. I think, in all fairness, Nick's response is far more balanced than the childish digs from the the aptly named Remoaners.
:clap:

I sometimes think you'd clap at anything.

If you saw a cat doing a massive poo and you found it impressive, would you give it a round of applause?
Stop throwing your toys out of the pram mate as it doesn't suit you (especially at your age). Very Happy

46 Re: Brexit - A new twist! on Thu Nov 03 2016, 21:59

Soul Kitchen

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
We don't have schengen, we don't have Euros and the Greeks can't buy Porsche cars with olive oil, despite their efforts to do so.
So what's remaining?
We'll all become more prosperous outside the EU?  Straight bananas taste no different to bent ones, so all that remains is EU is not fit for purpose , which I agree on. 
Better to sit on the outside then and pay the price of not having a say?
I've changed my mind, you've convinced me, who needs petrol and foreign currency anyway?

47 Re: Brexit - A new twist! on Thu Nov 03 2016, 22:01

Soul Kitchen

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Engratiating is the new word for brown nosing apparently? Can't really say I'm fond of either.

48 Re: Brexit - A new twist! on Thu Nov 03 2016, 22:43

NickFazer

avatar
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Soul Kitchen wrote:We don't have schengen, we don't have Euros and the Greeks can't buy Porsche cars with olive oil, despite their efforts to do so.
So what's remaining?
We'll all become more prosperous outside the EU?  Straight bananas taste no different to bent ones, so all that remains is EU is not fit for purpose , which I agree on. 
Better to sit on the outside then and pay the price of not having a say?
I've changed my mind, you've convinced me, who needs petrol and foreign currency anyway?
I wouldn't expect to change anyone's mind, I was expressing a view. We are affected by the Euro and by Schengen indirectly even if we aren't signed up to them, the UK's economy would be better off with a healthier Eurozone economic performance and there would be less of an issue for security and intelligence services if there were was greater border control. OK the Greeks, we aren't party to the bailout programme but who are they trying to kid? Why throw good money after bad, the first loss is always the best one is what I have often seen working in industry, trying to muddle through or fudge an issue only makes it worse and more expensive. Does anybody on here think that the debt will not have to be written down or substantially cut eventually? The ECB or the Commission or the IMF or whoever should have managed Greece's exit from the Euro back in 2009 or 2010, instead they will probably be having another bailout in 2018, ridiculous. 

Yes we have a say, 1/28 th of one for the most part and will we all be more prosperous outside? I don't know and neither does anyone else but on balance I would rather have more control over policy and strategic decisions than we do currently.



Last edited by NickFazer on Thu Nov 03 2016, 22:45; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Predictive text bolloxs)

49 Re: Brexit - A new twist! on Fri Nov 04 2016, 08:40

xmiles

avatar
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
NickFazer wrote:What this actually means is that democracy in this country is alive and kicking and is something we should all be proud of, which ever way you voted in the referendum. Brussels's should take note. I voted to Leave but was not happy for Article 50 to be triggered without Parliamentary scrutiny, it was an act of Parliament that took us in and so it is correct that one should take us out. 

Soul Kitchen asked what Besides wanted / expected, I have proclaimed my position on that previously in the Economy Watch Thread but in brief these are some of the reasons I voted Leave.

1 EU Ever closer Union Despite being favour or co-operating on matters of trade  / security / research etc I disagree with the creation of a supranational state, it is in my view unworkable especially when it's membership is of 28 nations with diverse cultures / economies and aspirations. You can have cooperation without all the beaurocracy and institutions of a nation state. It may be that even the commission would now accept that this aim of complete political and economic integration is now dead.

2 The Euro. Imposing a common currency across 19 diverse economies has not worked well. Time will tell but the currency union has been a drag on the economies of the EU and especially those in the Eurozone. Not having a flexible currency has been a drag on economic performance before 2008 and has greatly hindered Eurozone recovery especially since. Without greater integration in to one centralised state with tax raising and spending powers the Euro as a currency is flawed.

3 Schengen A nice idea in a safe peaceful world but not in this one.

4 Democracy. That word again, when power is concentrated with a small group that is unelected and largely unaccountable then it will be abused. The EU Commission is both of these and is where the real power is concentrated.

5 Prosperity of its Citizens. The EU has failed to increase prosperity among the general population of the EU, unless you are already wealthy that is. Standards of living have remained static at best and growth is strangled by an overbearing beaurocracy aided and abetted by a failing currency union. Years of little to no growth, high unemployment especially among the young and austerity measures imposed while the ECB throws billions at propping up the Euro.

In my view the EU is no longer fit for purpose and lost direction and purpose especially since it expanded its membership from a manageable 9 to 27, pissed off the Russians, condemned Greece to generations of austerity without any hope of recovery until the debts are written off and failed to come up with any measures to cope with a migrant invasion except opening the doors.

So, those are my views. I would be interested to hear how those in favour of remaining in see how the EU intends to resolve some of these issues.

But for now pass me another crayon

Thanks for actually answering SK's question Nick. Personally I would like to see a second referendum after the terms have been negotiated with the EU. Then people can actually see what Brexit means.

Taking points 4 and 5 you make I don't see how leaving the EU is going to improve either. We live in a country where "power is concentrated with a small group that is [largely] unelected and largely unaccountable" and where only the rich have been getting richer. The Tories are the party that represent these interests and they won't be doing anything to improve the welfare of the majority of the population because they simply don't care.

Remember just because something is shit it does not mean the alternative is not even shitter.

50 Re: Brexit - A new twist! on Fri Nov 04 2016, 09:01

gloswhite

avatar
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
XM, in all honestly, and a genuine question, how would Labour manage the current situation, (if they had a united party) ?. As for looking after everyone, they are renowned for giving everything away, especially peoples money, in an attempt to make everyone 'vanilla'. We can't all be the same, and at least the Tory lot will be generating money, (although I do agree they need to be made to release more).

51 Re: Brexit - A new twist! on Fri Nov 04 2016, 09:01

Norpig

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John McGinlay
John McGinlay
So we spend months and months thrashing out deals with the EU and then come back and have another referendum? How does this help this country in the meantime? What do we do then, have a best of 5 or keep going till you get the result you want?

I voted remain but we lost and we have to get over it and get on with getting the best deals for us.

52 Re: Brexit - A new twist! on Fri Nov 04 2016, 09:03

gloswhite

avatar
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
And its this sort of positive outlook that will help us all to move forward, instead of bitter feuds every step of the way.

53 Re: Brexit - A new twist! on Fri Nov 04 2016, 10:04

whatsgoingon

avatar
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
finlaymcdanger wrote:
Natasha Whittam wrote:With almost any major decision in history comes heartache, the good times don't come easily. It might be a huge disaster, it might be the best thing we ever did....the truth is no one knows, especially the three wankers above.

Should events swing in your favour, what are you most looking forward to post Brexit?
Sexchanges on the NHS

54 Re: Brexit - A new twist! on Fri Nov 04 2016, 10:09

Natasha Whittam

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
whatsgoingon wrote:Sexchanges on the NHS

Are you going from man to woman or woman to man?

55 Re: Brexit - A new twist! on Fri Nov 04 2016, 10:15

whatsgoingon

avatar
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
Natasha Whittam wrote:
whatsgoingon wrote:Sexchanges on the NHS

Are you going from man to woman or woman to man?
I'm happy where I am but some people may be one thing in real life and another in their online life and may want to align the two.

56 Re: Brexit - A new twist! on Fri Nov 04 2016, 10:26

xmiles

avatar
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Norpig wrote:So we spend months and months thrashing out deals with the EU and then come back and have another referendum? How does this help this country in the meantime? What do we do then, have a best of 5 or keep going till you get the result you want?

I voted remain but we lost and we have to get over it and get on with getting the best deals for us.

I can't see the harm in having a referendum after the terms have been negotiated. It is very clear that nobody knows what the terms will be and they will make a massive difference to all our futures. It is only then that people can make a decision based on fact rather than wild claims.

57 Re: Brexit - A new twist! on Fri Nov 04 2016, 10:34

Reebok Trotter

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Norpig wrote:So we spend months and months thrashing out deals with the EU and then come back and have another referendum? How does this help this country in the meantime? What do we do then, have a best of 5 or keep going till you get the result you want?

I voted remain but we lost and we have to get over it and get on with getting the best deals for us.

Exactly. We can't keep having more elections until the Remoaners finally get their way. Let's not forget, over seventeen million people voted to leave the EU. It's the biggest mandate ever. And I don't buy into the theory that nearly a third of the population who voted leave are all xenophobic crayon munchers. It simply doesn't stack up. Putting aside the notion that the Brexiters were only interested in closing our borders and stopping immigration, many intelligent people were equally concerned about being controlled by a Federal Europe and the gradual reduction and erosion of our sovereignty.

58 Re: Brexit - A new twist! on Fri Nov 04 2016, 10:39

xmiles

avatar
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
gloswhite wrote:XM, in all honestly, and a genuine question, how would Labour manage the current situation, (if they had a united party) ?. As for looking after everyone, they are renowned for giving everything away, especially peoples money, in an attempt to make everyone 'vanilla'. We can't all be the same, and at least the Tory lot will be generating money, (although I do agree they need to be made to release more).

Honest answer: very badly. Corbyn is a disaster. He is not a leader and his mindset was fixed back in the 70s. Labour will never be united under him and are effectively unelectable now.

As for giving everything away that is exactly what the Tories do. Look at all the stuff they have privatised. Now it is outsoucing. This means they give one sided contracts to large multi-national companies to provide services at greater cost than the public sector. Just look at recent scandals involving G4S and Serco. The Tories only generate money for these companies and their wealthy cronies. Average incomes in this country have not kept pace with inflation whilst the rich have got massively wealthier. We are a very unequal society, far worse than most developed countries, and it is getting worse. Please read this for details:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi03-P1847QAhUkIcAKHXiKAXQQFgg5MAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.equalitytrust.org.uk%2Fscale-economic-inequality-uk&usg=AFQjCNEJR7uRsPJf_Ale2zU5-9CZYm8SfA&sig2=V-c2WJQirY4d-jEiYB2Zcw

59 Re: Brexit - A new twist! on Fri Nov 04 2016, 10:42

whatsgoingon

avatar
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
xmiles wrote:It is only then that people can make a decision based on fact rather than wild claims.
But can they? we aren't going to see all the official documentation and even if we did it would be very much open to individual interpretation.
the campaign at that point would be equally divisive and equally emotive and therefore equally subjective because every single point on it would be open to different viewpoints.
As well as that all the scaremongering remoaners who have been forecasting the end of the world as we know it will have scared some into changing allegiance based on nothing more than fear.
There aren't facts in this, only points of reference and different peoples interpretations of them.

60 Re: Brexit - A new twist! on Fri Nov 04 2016, 10:42

xmiles

avatar
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Reebok Trotter wrote:
Norpig wrote:So we spend months and months thrashing out deals with the EU and then come back and have another referendum? How does this help this country in the meantime? What do we do then, have a best of 5 or keep going till you get the result you want?

I voted remain but we lost and we have to get over it and get on with getting the best deals for us.

Exactly. We can't keep having more elections until the [other side] finally get their way.

And yet this was the policy of the brexiters. If they didn't win they said they would keep carrying on until they did.

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