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When should you not say what you think?

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1 When should you not say what you think? on Tue Nov 29 2016, 11:59

Sluffy

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Admin
As I get older not only do I bite my tongue and not say things that perhaps I would have twenty or thirty years ago but also I see those that do say stuff considered not to be currently PC hounded and ostracised from society.

The stuff I'm talking about myself is giving an honest answer.

I would never dream now of saying to any woman that their bum does in fact look big - even though they must know themselves it does.

I would never express my views of race or religion to anyone in public, although I simply think that everyone should be treated equally and fairly and not jump to the front of the queue of those that have. Not to take financial advantage of those in a country that have contributed financially to a society that has given them food and shelter and religious freedom.

Although I don't approve of physical violence I can understand what Eric Bristow tweeted about the football sex abuse - namely when the abused kids grew into big burly blokes, why didn't they then pay their abuser a visit!

Seems it has cost Bristow his job on Sky TV.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/darts/38141331

These days he was wrong to say it publically but how many of us probably think it privately anyway?

I'm not saying the old days had it right - far from it - but to me it seems that have gone to far in the opposite direction these days

It is becoming a sort of brain control somehow.

For example if you have a religion, that forces religion on to you from birth, regulates your whole life including how you are treated according to gender via society, politics and the law.  Punishes by death if you renounce or denounce it - and the only way you flourish under it is by 'keeping the faith' then is it any wonder a whole chunk of the worlds population is slowly splitting themselves away from the rest of us - but does anyone, government, people or society make a stand and say let the people be free to choose in a God, or not!

I've long since learned to shut up about such things and let things take their course but I can't help thinking that this is the thin edge of the wedge and already people are beginning to kick back against such things as evidenced by the unexpected 'public' victory's for Brexit and Trump.

What do you think - that is if you feel brave enough to talk about it!

Reebok Trotter

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Bristow does make a fair point and I'm sure many men feel exactly the same.

boltonbonce

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
What Bristow said was disgusting. I suppose depressed people should just 'pull themselves together'.

He's living in the dark ages,as are many others,if such comments are acceptable.

Norpig

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Jussi Jääskeläinen
Jussi Jääskeläinen
Can't agree with what Bristow said, these men will have buried this away and would have not wanted to even think about what happened to them nevermind confront their abuser.

The mental scars from this will be something they have to live with all their lives and they should be commended for having the courage to speak out now not made to feel inadequate by morons like Bristow.

It's alright having all that bravado about giving your abuser a kicking but that's all it is - bravado

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Sluffy wrote:I can understand what Eric Bristow tweeted about the football sex abuse - namely when the abused kids grew into big burly blokes, why didn't they then pay their abuser a visit!


Absolutely awful comment, shame on you. I hope to God it was posted purely to provoke reaction.

You need to apologise.

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Reebok Trotter wrote:Bristow does make a fair point and I'm sure many men feel exactly the same.

Yes, many men in your "crowd" I'm sure.

Fuckwit.

Sluffy

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Admin
Natasha Whittam wrote:
Sluffy wrote:I can understand what Eric Bristow tweeted about the football sex abuse - namely when the abused kids grew into big burly blokes, why didn't they then pay their abuser a visit!


Absolutely awful comment, shame on you. I hope to God it was posted purely to provoke reaction.

You need to apologise.

As if either of our comments were!

Very Happy

I did I say I could understand it - not that I agreed with it.

Maybe I should stir the pot a little more though.

What if those abused said something at the time - maybe others wouldn't have been abused immediately after them.

Yes I know the weak and vulnerable are the ones usually picked on and back in the day they probably would not be listened to - but I know for a fact a few did.

Even with Saville there were always 'rumours' surrounding him - how did they come about if people had said nothing?

I've never been in that sort of a position but I've spoken out about things that haven't done my career any favours and would do again if ever the need arose.

It's ok to say how strong they are now speaking about it 30 years later - but how many have suffered in those years?

The FA is now saying it is one of their biggest crises - how come if this was just one bad apple - are they saying this is widespread across football and if so how long and how many poor kids have suffered.

If so, many, many people have known about this and kept quiet about it.

Perhaps Bristow's rough justice wouldn't have solved anything but at least the molester wouldn't have been tampering with any kids whilst he was recovering in hospital.

Perhaps I'm not PC but speaking out after 30 years isn't much of a help at all to all those who have been abused in all that time until now.

Is it?

Norpig

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Jussi Jääskeläinen
Jussi Jääskeläinen
Sluffy words fail me, they were boys when this happened and had been abused by a grown man, can you even begin to imagine the shame and fear these boys felt at the time and even now?

I suggest you keep your backwards thoughts to yourself

Sluffy

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Admin
Norpig wrote:Sluffy words fail me, they were boys when this happened and had been abused by a grown man, can you even begin to imagine the shame and fear these boys felt at the time and even now?

I suggest you keep your backwards thoughts to yourself

Backwards thoughts or not, a few kids have spoken out abuse at the time it happened.

Bennell was given a four years sentence for child rape in 1994 and a further nine years in 1998.

Why was Woodward and the others not speaking out then - they were grown men by now?

They also knew that they weren't the only ones that had been abused.

I'm not saying it would have been easy for them but better they had 20 years ago than now surely?

10 Re: When should you not say what you think? on Tue Nov 29 2016, 13:48

Reebok Trotter

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Natasha Whittam wrote:
Reebok Trotter wrote:Bristow does make a fair point and I'm sure many men feel exactly the same.

Yes, many men in your "crowd" I'm sure.

Fuckwit.

I am absolutely certain that there are many men out there who were abused as children and went on to give their abuser a good hiding when they grew up. I was never abused as a child but if I had been then I'm 100% certain I would have exacted my revenge at a later date. It's how I roll. If that makes me a fuckwit then so be it.

11 Re: When should you not say what you think? on Tue Nov 29 2016, 14:02

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Reebok Trotter wrote:
I am absolutely certain that there are many men out there who were abused as children and went on to give their abuser a good hiding when they grew up. I was never abused as a child but if I had been then I'm 100% certain I would have exacted my revenge at a later date. It's how I roll. If that makes me a fuckwit then so be it.

A truly embarrassing post.

12 Re: When should you not say what you think? on Tue Nov 29 2016, 14:15

Norpig

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Jussi Jääskeläinen
Jussi Jääskeläinen
Sluffy wrote:
Norpig wrote:Sluffy words fail me, they were boys when this happened and had been abused by a grown man, can you even begin to imagine the shame and fear these boys felt at the time and even now?

I suggest you keep your backwards thoughts to yourself

Backwards thoughts or not, a few kids have spoken out abuse at the time it happened.

Bennell was given a four years sentence for child rape in 1994 and a further nine years in 1998.

Why was Woodward and the others not speaking out then - they were grown men by now?

They also knew that they weren't the only ones that had been abused.

I'm not saying it would have been easy for them but better they had 20 years ago than now surely?

Unless you have been abused yourself (i haven't for the record) then how can you possibly know what state of mind that person would be in at the time or how it would continue to affect you mentally in the following years?

The shame and stigma of being a victim of this kind of abuse is something that would be virtually impossible to get over no matter how old you are or how long ago it happened, especially when you get idiots with the Bristow mentality claiming they aren't real men

13 Re: When should you not say what you think? on Tue Nov 29 2016, 14:37

okocha

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Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Wow! Sluffy and RT.......you've really plummeted in my estimation. Your point of view is just shameful.

I agree totally with Bonce, Norpig and Natasha. Well said, you three. Most of the victims were too young to even appreciate that what was happening to them was wrong.

Bristow is an utter moron and has deserved to lose his Sky role. I hope his CBE is also taken away. His views are neanderthal and, to make matters worse, he seems to be advocating violence as a response. 

Speaking out now, between the tears and nightmares that still haunt them, is the only thing they can do. The perpetrators must be brought to justice.

14 Re: When should you not say what you think? on Tue Nov 29 2016, 14:42

xmiles

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Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
This might have been an interesting thread sluffy but unfortunately your remarks about Bristow have derailed it completely. Bristow's comments are indefensible. He is virtually blaming the victims because they didn't assault their abuser when they grew up.

When the dust has cleared please re-post a similar thread as I think there is a debate to be had about what is acceptable. Free speech is constantly under attack from people who seem to make a career out of being offended - often on behalf of others, like the idiots who insist on renaming Christmas. I have never heard of any Muslim being offended by this word, only bleeding heart liberals and stupid do-gooders.

15 Re: When should you not say what you think? on Tue Nov 29 2016, 14:44

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I guess nobody knows how being abused would affect the development of those boys but we can get some idea about the longevity of the impact from guys like Gary Speed who was widely loved, had a loving family and an incredibly successful career yet chose to end it all. 
It may be that Speedo's death as not directly related to abuse as a kid, but it's not the place of Eric Bristow or anyone else to comment on what the abused should do when like the rest of us he has little or no understanding of what the victims are feeling or indeed are capable of.

16 Re: When should you not say what you think? on Tue Nov 29 2016, 14:57

Reebok Trotter

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
okocha wrote:Wow! Sluffy and RT.......you've really plummeted in my estimation. Your point of view is just shameful.


As far as I can see, nobody is condoning what happened. I may not agree with others point of view but I have always been an advocate of the eye for an eye policy. Revenge is a dish best served cold.

17 Re: When should you not say what you think? on Tue Nov 29 2016, 15:50

whatsgoingon

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Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
Reebok Trotter wrote:I am absolutely certain that there are many men out there who were abused as children and went on to give their abuser a good hiding when they grew up. I was never abused as a child but if I had been then I'm 100% certain I would have exacted my revenge at a later date. It's how I roll. If that makes me a fuckwit then so be it.
That's easy to say from the position of never having been abused, woulda, coulda, shoulda but you will never know the mental anguish and scars that are left by this type of abuse,

Very few children that are abused grow up to be in a position to exact revenge, they generally become very withdrawn and suffer from low self esteem so Bristows comments are ill informed, ignorant and full of machismo crap and it is right he was removed from his position IMO.
Different people will have different opinions but the vast majority are based on conjecture, the only opinions that have any validity are people who have lived through it.

I have briefly in the past worked with people with mental illness caused by abuse and it is terrible to see the scars left by it, the perpetrators should have what they've done tattoo'd to their heads and thrown into general population in prison to see if they like the other end of abuse.

18 Re: When should you not say what you think? on Tue Nov 29 2016, 18:02

Copper Dragon

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
What I don't understand is that this noncey shitbag in his thirties was having a relationship with Woodward's 16 year old sister (which her father and mother knew about) at the time he was abusing Woodward. Woodward talks about how his father and mother had the noncey shitbag around for sunday dinner when he was having a relationship with Woodward's 16 (sixteen) year old sister.

Ding-a-ling-a-ling...... that's the sound of alarm bells.

So this noncey shitbag is coaching young boys, has them staying over at his house (for better preparation and recovery) and he's having a relationship with a 16 year old girl.

Why didn't Woodward's father chin the noncey shitbag and send him on his way for having a relationship with his 16 (sixteen) year old daughter?

Would you let a man in his thirties have a relationship with your 16 (sixteen) year old daughter?

19 Re: When should you not say what you think? on Tue Nov 29 2016, 19:15

Reebok Trotter

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Copper Dragon wrote:What I don't understand is that this noncey shitbag in his thirties was having a relationship with Woodward's 16 year old sister (which her father and mother knew about) at the time he was abusing Woodward. Woodward talks about how his father and mother had the noncey shitbag around for sunday dinner when he was having a relationship with Woodward's 16 (sixteen) year old sister.

Ding-a-ling-a-ling...... that's the sound of alarm bells.

So this noncey shitbag is coaching young boys, has them staying over at his house (for better preparation and recovery) and he's having a relationship with a 16 year old girl.

Why didn't Woodward's father chin the noncey shitbag and send him on his way for having a relationship with his 16 (sixteen) year old daughter?

Would you let a man in his thirties have a relationship with your 16 (sixteen) year old daughter?

Bennell was a very smooth operator who had the gift of the gab and could charm the birds out of the trees. He hailed from my neck of the woods and a lady I worked with had two sons who went to school with him. He was a regular visitor to her home and she never once suspected he was anything other than a ladies man. When he was arrested in America for abusing two boys from his Junior football team which were taking part in a tournament over there, the Yanks imprisoned him and notified the British authorities. Sadly, for whatever reason the authorities never took matters further. Bearing in mind that Bennell had been abusing boys since the early eighties it beggars belief that it has taken this long for victims to come forward. Had somebody come forward sooner then he would have been drummed out of football years ago and who knows how many innocent lives would have been spared from his evil deeds?

20 Re: When should you not say what you think? on Tue Nov 29 2016, 21:05

Sluffy

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Reebok Trotter wrote:
Copper Dragon wrote:What I don't understand is that this noncey shitbag in his thirties was having a relationship with Woodward's 16 year old sister (which her father and mother knew about) at the time he was abusing Woodward. Woodward talks about how his father and mother had the noncey shitbag around for sunday dinner when he was having a relationship with Woodward's 16 (sixteen) year old sister.

Ding-a-ling-a-ling...... that's the sound of alarm bells.

So this noncey shitbag is coaching young boys, has them staying over at his house (for better preparation and recovery) and he's having a relationship with a 16 year old girl.

Why didn't Woodward's father chin the noncey shitbag and send him on his way for having a relationship with his 16 (sixteen) year old daughter?

Would you let a man in his thirties have a relationship with your 16 (sixteen) year old daughter?

Bennell was a very smooth operator who had the gift of the gab and could charm the birds out of the trees. He hailed from my neck of the woods and a lady I worked with had two sons who went to school with him. He was a regular visitor to her home and she never once suspected he was anything other than a ladies man. When he was arrested in America for abusing two boys from his Junior football team which were taking part in a tournament over there, the Yanks imprisoned him and notified the British authorities. Sadly, for whatever reason the authorities never took matters further. Bearing in mind that Bennell had been abusing boys since the early eighties it beggars belief that it has taken this long for victims to come forward. Had somebody come forward sooner then he would have been drummed out of football years ago and who knows how many innocent lives would have been spared from his evil deeds?

Whoh, steady on RT, I've been told I had backwards thoughts for suggesting similar to this.

It does take courage to stand up and be counted - knowing that in all probability your voice won't be heard either - but if you don't do it, then who will - and how many other victims will there be until that happens.

I knowingly took a hit on my career because I stood up and told the truth - nothing on this sort of personal scale these children had suffered - but enough to know that what I was doing would impact financially on my family because I would not bury my head in the sand like many others had.

I'm the sort of bloke though that wouldn't sleep well if I hadn't had done it - just the way I am.

Ultimately it meant nothing, it wasn't the sort of thing you would go to jail over, or would have cost lives or anything - but it had to be done if you believed in working honestly and for the benefit of the public.

Maybe if just one person had spoken out years ago about the abuse, then maybe, just maybe, they would have been heard and numerous other kids would not have had to suffer.

Maybe this is actually the guilt that some of them carry around with them and not the guilt of being abused.

Just a thought.



21 Re: When should you not say what you think? on Tue Nov 29 2016, 22:10

Reebok Trotter

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I have it on good authority that the Chief Constable of Greater Manchester has been summoned to No 10 today to meet with the Prime Minister. Make of it what you will but the authorities knew all about Bennell a long time ago and questions will need to be answered.

22 Re: When should you not say what you think? on Tue Nov 29 2016, 23:05

Lard Lad

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Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
I got molested by a perv in a cinema in Salford when i was 14, he grabbed my crotch and squeezed my dick and held it tight, it was a shock but it has not affected me one little bit because i put a bic biro right through his cheek and guessing by the noise the fucker made it went through his tongue as well then i ran like shit and to this day if i am reminded of it i laugh and feel really good about it.

23 Re: When should you not say what you think? on Tue Nov 29 2016, 23:21

Soul Kitchen

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Ffs people have grown up in different generations and have different mindsets to those 20 years younger! 
I happened to question at work why they didn't sing up much earlier, given this sort of stuff was going on in the 70's, little did I realise that my comments, if I'd brought them up on here, would have been described as shameful and disgusting? Well I suppose I would have to pay the price for being born when men were men and sheep were nervous! Smile

24 Re: When should you not say what you think? on Tue Nov 29 2016, 23:22

Reebok Trotter

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I have never met Angry Dad but he has never struck me as one of lifes victims. In fact, he is the sort of character who epitomises the type of person who would exact revenge on any perpetrator who tried any sort of ' funny business' on his personage.. 

Eric Bristow is due to appear on ITV This Morning,  tomorrow to explain his comments to Piers Morgan. Worth viewing to hear what he has to say rather than taking his Twitter feed as the finished article.

25 Re: When should you not say what you think? on Tue Nov 29 2016, 23:26

Reebok Trotter

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Soul Kitchen wrote:Ffs people have grown up in different generations and have different mindsets to those 20 years younger! 
I happened to question at work why they didn't sing up much earlier, given this sort of stuff was going on in the 70's, little did I realise that my comments, if I'd brought them up on here, would have been described as shameful and disgusting? Well I suppose I would have to pay the price for being born when men were men and sheep were nervous! Smile

SK I agree with your last post apart from the last sentence. Bringing sheep into it could get you in hot water with the RSPCA. Mind how you go.

26 Re: When should you not say what you think? on Wed Nov 30 2016, 08:46

Norpig

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Jussi Jääskeläinen
Jussi Jääskeläinen
i have to say i am still shocked and disappointed with some of the comments on here. I'm guessing SK, Sluffy and RT are of a different generation to me but that doesn't excuse your belittling of these men and questioning their manliness.

Life isn't like a John Wayne film i'm afraid, where you can go and extract your revenge on your abuser. These men will have felt nothing but shame, fear and embarrassment about what happened to them and probably have questioned themselves over the years why they didn't speak up at the time, that's why they didn't speak up earlier and probably because of the fear of not being believed either
Comments like Bristows and posters on here would hardly encourage others to come forward would they?

27 Re: When should you not say what you think? on Wed Nov 30 2016, 09:21

Reebok Trotter

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Norpig wrote:i have to say i am still shocked and disappointed with some of the comments on here. I'm guessing SK, Sluffy and RT are of a different generation to me but that doesn't excuse your belittling of these men and questioning their manliness.


Norpig, I think we may have got crossed wires at some point during this debate. At no point have I belittled any of the victims or questioned their manliness. As I see it, each and every one of those who were abused were victims of a manipulative sexual deviant and in no way can they be held culpable for anything that happened to them. At the time they were children and should have been treated as such.

Yes, Bristow's remarks came across as  flippant, crass and insensitive but the point he made about some victims exacting revenge in later life was what I was referring to. No two people are alike therefore it stands to reason that victims of abuse will react in different ways. Some will come to terms with what happened and will go on to lead perfectly normal lives. Others will become abusers themselves.  Some victims will even learn to  forgive their abuser whereas others will never forgive and will always harbour resentment and seek revenge in later life. 

If my own viewpoint on this delicate subject may have caused offence then I can only apologise but in no way was I blaming the victims or belittling them for what took place.

28 Re: When should you not say what you think? on Wed Nov 30 2016, 09:34

Bwfc1958

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Tinned Toms - You know it makes sense!
What these guys went through as kids doesn't bear thinking about. I think it's wrong to lay the blame at their door for the abuse of other children further down the line. As has already been said, unless you've been in that position, it's difficult to judge how you would cope with that experience. If you are a child and you've got someone threatening to kill your family if you tell anyone then you can imagine it must be a real tug of war with your conscience. What if they were to follow through on their threat would probably be playing on your mind I would guess. 

I can see RT's point of view regarding retribution though. If, as adults, the victims saw fit to exact their revenge, I don't think anyone could blame them for that. As much as some people think it's wrong, I too am a firm believer in the eye for an eye policy. If you see fit to ruin people's lives in horrific ways then you can have no complaints when it comes back around. I wouldn't blame anyone for not being able to go down that road as such disgusting acts can affect people in different ways but equally, I would not begrudge anyone the opportunity to exact revenge on someone who has ruined their life and mental well-being, in some cases, forever.

29 Re: When should you not say what you think? on Wed Nov 30 2016, 09:59

Soul Kitchen

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Norpig wrote:i have to say i am still shocked and disappointed with some of the comments on here. I'm guessing SK, Sluffy and RT are of a different generation to me but that doesn't excuse your belittling of these men and questioning their manliness.

I've said it in my response. Things I saw in life when I was a lad only came into full meaning when I was a fews years older. I'm not a PC man at all because that action stops me seeing and saying as I see. I'm a racist bigot on here apparently, yet I didn't vote Brexit, and put the future of 800,000 Poles in Britain, am I allowed to say Pole, in doubt. Although I'm not very keen on the spade man, oh dear there I go again, who was on the news having a bit of a moment. He might be a Brit though? As an adage if I'd done that the Police would have been at my home before me!!

30 Re: When should you not say what you think? on Wed Nov 30 2016, 10:00

Soul Kitchen

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
I do agree with  Bristow about Rugby players though!!

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