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First it was "Post Truth" and now this......

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Bread2.0

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Andy Walker
Andy Walker
I am starting to despair a bit about things.

Not the football, that's going fine.

No, I mean other stuff.

This isn't another anti-Trump rant but he is involved in this.

I'm talking about the way that it now appears that concrete facts are no longer deemed immutable by large sections of our society.

Now, despite what many of you may well think, I'm not daft and I know that people have always told fibs if it suited their agenda.

They always have done and they always will do.

But that's always been ok because you could always blow their spurious arguments out of the water by citing facts to dispute what they were saying.

Now however, it seems that it is becoming increasingly acceptable to ignore facts and just argue until you're blue in the face that black is white.

Watch this:




That woman is basically saying that it's fine to just make stuff up and it's now a recognised political strategy for gaining popularity.

As I've just said, lying's one thing but the facts were always there to provide the truth.

I'm deeply concerned about this notion that you can just make stuff up and pass it off as fact and that's a legitimate way of getting what you want.

Traditionally, if a politician got caught out lying, they had to resign.

Nowadays, telling lies has become accepted as simply part of the process.

And that's dangerous.

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Says the man who claimed to have a huge knob then back-tracked a few hours later.

karlypants

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
She looks like she has a great pair of tits!

Bread2.0

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Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Natasha Whittam wrote:Says the man who claimed to have a huge knob then back-tracked a few hours later.

But that's (kind of) my point.

I said I had a massive willy but then thought: "Shit! If any of this lot ever meet Mrs B and ask her, I'll be exposed as a liar."

So I recanted my initial statement.

Because the fact is, it's quite small.

But we're moving into a world in which facts like that don't matter because all that counts is the initial impact of what I said about it being yuge.

That's how Trump operates and people appear to love it.

Bigly.

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
But the thing is, when you announced that you had a huge willy everyone stood up and took notice. We all took you seriously and realised you were a man not to be messed with.

You had our attention and we would have done anything you asked. And that's why politicians lie.

Soul Kitchen

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
karlypants wrote:She looks like she has a great pair of tits!
Wanker?

Soul Kitchen

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Bread2.0 wrote:
Natasha Whittam wrote:Says the man who claimed to have a huge knob then back-tracked 

Because the fact is, it's quite small.

If it's big enough to fill a pram that's all that matters! Smile
Ask Nat?!

Soul Kitchen

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
People will believe the moon is made of foreskin cheese if the right person tells them.

Bread2.0

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Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Natasha Whittam wrote:But the thing is, when you announced that you had a huge willy everyone stood up and took notice. We all took you seriously and realised you were a man not to be messed with.

You had our attention and we would have done anything you asked. And that's why politicians lie.

Yes, fine...I'm not disputing that.

My point is that traditionally, once the dust had settled and someone had said: "Er...hang on. That's not actually true...", they'd have to (at the very least) try and explain their reasoning for saying what they did.

Look at what Farage did with the £350m bus lie.

He was on breakfast telly a mere 8 hours after the result came in saying it was a load of made-up shite.

With a big grin on his face.

But have him and Boris been strung up for it?

Have they balls..... Farage is over in Washington demanding to be made Her Majesty's Ambassador to Murica and Boris is now in charge of setting foreign policy for the British government.

It's crazy.

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Famous people are immune to the rules the rest of us follow.

On a more serious note, can you tell me why Asda have stopped selling Warbies Super Toastie?

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Natasha Whittam wrote:Famous people are immune to the rules the rest of us follow.


True but more accurate to say powerful rather than famous people are immune.

I still find it disturbing that any responsible person can deny that there are such things as facts (like gravity for example). We have moved even beyond Gove's statement that we don't need experts.

Fabians Right Peg

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Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
xmiles wrote:

I still find it disturbing that any responsible person can deny that there are such things as facts (like gravity for example). We have moved even beyond Gove's statement that we don't need experts.

Time that we did away with brainless idiots that pretend to be both celebrities and politicians, the fact that the two can be considered in the same sentence shows how far our society has fallen.

Bread2.0

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Andy Walker
Andy Walker
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mike-pence-trump-voter-fraud_us_584441c4e4b09e21702f3df4

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Just like it was the Brexit camp's "opinion" that they would spend £350m a week on the NHS.

Post truth = bare faced lies = there are no facts = too many people are stupid

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
That's where the Remain campaign went wrong. 
If only they'd questioned why Leave voters were supporting a rapist paedophile in the full knowledge that if we leave Europe all domestic pets will be reclassified as food and white children will be sold to the highest foreign bidder to cut benefit payments and clean up our parks.

Missed a trick there.

Bread2.0

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Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Seriously though......how have we got to this?

This is like one of those American High School movies you used to get where they're voting for class president and the jock who promises to provide free ice-cream in the cafeteria and extend recess to four hours a day gets voted in over the nerdy kid who campaigns on a platform of securing more books for the library.

The point with those movies was, the kids fell for it because they were stupid and shallow (ie kids) and it never ended well.

But the same appears to be happening with grown-ups now. With increasingly alarming regularity.

Charlie Brooker tweeted that he thinks that some scientists in Switzerland turned on a massive "human stupidity accelerator" under a mountain in the Alps last January and I'm starting to think he may have a point.

If you stop and think for a sec, the notion of giving serious credence to the idea that "facts are no longer important" potentially marks a massive turning point in human evolution.

If it carries on like this, we'll all be living in caves and wearing wolf pelts for clothing in another 150 years.

How the fuck has this happened?

And don't give me all that bullshit about people "voting for change" because there's more to it than that.

We really must be dumbing down.

The writing's been on the wall for a while with the emergence of TV shows like TOWIE and all that bollocks because it appears that significant numbers of us are no longer interested in the pursuit of sophistication and knowledge, and we'd rather settle for "scripted reality" TV shows instead because they're easier on the brain.

Just think about that: Scripted fucking reality.....

I've got my own theory that when the TV companies decided to start churning out all this cheap as chips dogshit about ten years ago and people started lapping it up, that was the moment the canary in the human mine fell off its perch.

We should have seen it coming and done something.

But it's too late now.

Mark my words, "Ow My Balls!" will be on the Discovery Channel within the next 5 years.

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Politicians only use facts to scare voters. It's called Project Fear. FACT.

boltonbonce

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/dec/07/trump-adviser-son-michael-flynn-sacked-pizzagate-comet-ping-pong-restaurant

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
boltonbonce wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/dec/07/trump-adviser-son-michael-flynn-sacked-pizzagate-comet-ping-pong-restaurant

Both shocking and disgusting. To be still claiming that his lies are true until they are "proven to be false" is sickening. How exactly is anyone supposed to be able to prove that his lies are not true?

Obviously there is now nothing that the right wing loonies in America and here won't say if they think it gives them an advantage or might embarrass their opponents.

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
xmiles wrote:
boltonbonce wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/dec/07/trump-adviser-son-michael-flynn-sacked-pizzagate-comet-ping-pong-restaurant

Obviously there is now nothing that the right wing loonies in America and here won't say if they think it gives them an advantage or might embarrass their opponents.
But the Leave campaign demonstrated that it's now happening here too. 
In Britain, politicians caught lying used to resign before they were pushed.
Whereas lying racist Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson was made Foreign Secretary.

British values of decency and honesty have all but disappeared.

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
FFS ! Lies were told by both sides, and I genuinely believe that when they come from the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and backed by the President of the United States, then they carry more weight than Boris Johnson.
When are you three going to get over it, and actually start pulling for Britain, instead of constantly complaining ? Its done, gone, let it go.

okocha

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Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
The saddest thing for me are the divisions in society that have been caused, including death threats made against some of the main protagonists. Through his fateful decision to hold a referendum, DC has created a massive rift in society that will be very slow to settle, whatever way it goes now. People will be arguing endlessly about strategies for EU negotiations and outcomes.

 To make it worse, the handling of the key issues from the outset was shameful, so that no one could be certain of the likely consequences of their voting. No wonder people are disenchanted with politicians. Lies and exaggeration at every turn.

Nearly half the population will be unhappy now, as is also the case in America, but while DC is lying low and escaping most of the flak, Trump gets Time Magazine's Man of the Year award for being even more blatantly a dissembler, and continues to make errors of judgement that may eventually prove catastrophic.

Thank God BW are cheering us up for the moment!

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
gloswhite wrote:FFS ! Lies were told by both sides, and I genuinely believe that when they come from the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and backed by the President of the United States, then they carry more weight than Boris Johnson.
When are you three going to get over it, and actually start pulling for Britain, instead of constantly complaining ? Its done, gone, let it go.

There is a vast difference between a bare faced lie (£350m a week for the NHS) and exaggerated predictions (Project Fear). One side consistently lied and the other side made dubious predictions. There is a genuine moral difference, they are not equivalent.

Lard Lad

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Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
Who is that babe? She definately is not a wet Wednesday afternoon.

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
xmiles wrote:
gloswhite wrote:FFS ! Lies were told by both sides, and I genuinely believe that when they come from the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and backed by the President of the United States, then they carry more weight than Boris Johnson.
When are you three going to get over it, and actually start pulling for Britain, instead of constantly complaining ? Its done, gone, let it go.

There is a vast difference between a bare faced lie (£350m a week for the NHS) and exaggerated predictions (Project Fear). One side consistently lied and the other side made dubious predictions. There is a genuine moral difference, they are not equivalent.
Does not 'dubious predictions', especially from the people who really should know, not amount to lies? The principle is the same, telling lies to get what you want. There is so much at stake here, that it seems to be accepted by the people involved that the bigger the lie, the more we will believe it. Its not happening so much now, as I believe the politicians have finally woken up to the fact the country as a whole is far more politicized, and that we listen, and understand far more than they gave us credit for. Unfortunately, the country is suffering greatly for their stupidity and arrogance. 
Such is society nowadays, that because we all have access to IT, internet, etc, we all think we have a direct input into decision-making, (in some very limited way maybe we have), but, to me, too much intervention seems to muddy the water too much, and impedes progress. This applies to absolutely everything that needs a decision, whether its the government, local councils, and even the schools. What happened to just letting the appointed people get on with it?

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
okocha wrote:The saddest thing for me are the divisions in society that have been caused, including death threats made against some of the main protagonists. Through his fateful decision to hold a referendum, DC has created a massive rift in society that will be very slow to settle, whatever way it goes now. People will be arguing endlessly about strategies for EU negotiations and outcomes.

 To make it worse, the handling of the key issues from the outset was shameful, so that no one could be certain of the likely consequences of their voting. No wonder people are disenchanted with politicians. Lies and exaggeration at every turn.

Nearly half the population will be unhappy now, as is also the case in America, but while DC is lying low and escaping most of the flak, Trump gets Time Magazine's Man of the Year award for being even more blatantly a dissembler, and continues to make errors of judgement that may eventually prove catastrophic.

Thank God BW are cheering us up for the moment!
Agree with you Okocha, but there were already big divisions in the country, and thats, why the referendum went the way it did. I also believe it will take a long time for this situation to resolve, but whilst we argue among ourselves, the pain will be prolonged for all.
I honestly thought the Times awarding Trump the Man of the year award was a piss take, as the nominations were him, Farage, and Putin, but when I saw on the TV that they were taking it seriously, I couldn't help but wonder where society was going. Its as stupid as giving Obama the Nobel prize when he hadn't done anything.
As you say, at least we have the Super Whites to keep us going.  Very Happy

Bread2.0

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Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Regarding this convenient "voting for change" excuse that keeps getting bandied about, (not having a pop at you, Glos) why does said change appear to involve a massive shift to the right politically?

UKIP are based firmly on the extreme right of British politics and Trump got elected by shouting that Mexicans are all rapist, drug dealers and every Muslim on the planet wants to destroy America.

The far right parties in France, Italy and Austria all appear to be gaining ground rapidly, so presumably "stranger danger" is a key motivating factor in all this.

If this is about disenfranchised groups simply wanting to change a system which (they erroneously believe) puts them at a disadvantage, why are they all so excited at the prospect of electing another one of the One Percenters (ie more of what's got them in this mess) and why are they so enthusiastically lapping up his race hate nonsense?

Why haven't they all risen up and joined the centre left parties which are far better placed to bring about the type of change they (allegedly) desire?

Could it be that all that's just a bullshit excuse and deep down, poorly educated people are simply inherently racist and aren't bright enough to see or care about the big picture?

And this makes them ripe for exploitation by power hungry nutters like Trump and Farage who are only in this for what they can get out of it and fuck all else, with absolutely no regard for the consequences?

And that's why I'm not buying all this "vote for change" bollocks.

The Leave result and Trump's election to The White House are all about stupid racists being fed a pack of lies by opportunist wankers and fuck all else.

Every racist redneck in America now feels validated and empowered as a direct result of Trump's campaign strategy.

And to make matters even more interesting, it appears that you can now just stand on a soap box and make up outrageous lies without a single shred of evidence to back them up and that's fine.

Is that a society that we really want to live in?

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
gloswhite wrote:
xmiles wrote:
gloswhite wrote:FFS ! Lies were told by both sides, and I genuinely believe that when they come from the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and backed by the President of the United States, then they carry more weight than Boris Johnson.
When are you three going to get over it, and actually start pulling for Britain, instead of constantly complaining ? Its done, gone, let it go.

There is a vast difference between a bare faced lie (£350m a week for the NHS) and exaggerated predictions (Project Fear). One side consistently lied and the other side made dubious predictions. There is a genuine moral difference, they are not equivalent.
Does not 'dubious predictions', especially from the people who really should know, not amount to lies? The principle is the same, telling lies to get what you want. There is so much at stake here, that it seems to be accepted by the people involved that the bigger the lie, the more we will believe it. Its not happening so much now, as I believe the politicians have finally woken up to the fact the country as a whole is far more politicized, and that we listen, and understand far more than they gave us credit for. Unfortunately, the country is suffering greatly for their stupidity and arrogance. 
Such is society nowadays, that because we all have access to IT, internet, etc, we all think we have a direct input into decision-making, (in some very limited way maybe we have), but, to me, too much intervention seems to muddy the water too much, and impedes progress. This applies to absolutely everything that needs a decision, whether its the government, local councils, and even the schools. What happened to just letting the appointed people get on with it?

No, dubious predictions are not the same as direct lies. Making dubious predictions even in bad faith remain predictions. Nobody can tell whether or not they will come true. If they are made in bad faith that is dishonest and you can certainly argue that may have been the case with Project Fear although Cameron and co might have genuinely believed these predictions.

However going on record as stating that you will do something such as spending £350m a week on the NHS if we leave the EU is different. This is people like Farage and Boris deliberately lying and having no intention of honouring their pledge. They knew they were lying all along and that is what makes it morally different.

I am also mystified by your statement that "we listen, and understand far more than they gave us credit for" when large numbers of people have voted to make things worse for themselves as a protest against what they see as the establishment.

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
xmiles wrote:when large numbers of people have voted to make things worse for themselves.

It statements like this from the Remain camp that anger me.

Firstly xmiles, please tell me how voting to leave the EU has made things worse for me. I don't mean a general sweeping statement, I mean for me personally.

Secondly, leaving the EU is a long term strategy, I firmly believe that in 20 years time the UK will be far stronger because of it. Unless you have a time machine please tell me how you know I am wrong.

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
I was agreeing with you until I got to the 
Could it be that all that's just a bullshit excuse and deep down, poorly educated people are simply inherently racist and aren't bright enough to see or care about the big picture?
I genuinely think you aren't giving credit to an awful lot of people, who can see what is happening to their way of life, how it is being affected, and more importantly, how it will affect future generations. 
When there is a shift of millions from one area of the world to another, then the impact has to be addressed. The West were completely unprepared for it, and the politicians, as in Germany, were merely thinking of the financial benefits, (they were going to fall short of workers, apparently). Its taken the reaction of the public in all of these countries, not just the UK, to flag up their concerns about how things are going wrong. In this country, because of Blair and his government, (rise of the PC police, open door policy, and labeling all comments and questions racist), we were afraid to have a full and honest debate about the countries problems regarding immigration, and the voice of the people was muted, deliberately. This frustration is now being shown, by all classes of the public, and as you say, the reaction isn't always very nice. Although I voted out mainly for the sovereignty argument, I also believe that immigration should be talked about, and resolved as soon as possible. Although some of the language isn't good, the problem is far worse, especially when you consider that the Labour plan for integration for immigrant communities with the local communities was an absolute disaster, with many native born people seeing their own way of life being subsumed into something that didn't exist just a few years ago, and which is very different to what is considered the British way of life. Britain has always taken in refugees, immigrants, etc., but the current rate of flow is too much, and is affecting everyone, and distorting the country's infrastructure. Calling people racist just because they want some planning, and reassurance, isn't the right approach as far as I am concerned, and actually compounds the problem.

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