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Trump bombs Syria - has he started World War III?

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Sluffy

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Admin
Obama said using chemical warfare was a red line that would invoke American intervention a couple of years back but when the Syrian government did, he stepped back from the brink.

Since them Russia and Iran (via their Hezbollah proxies) have got involved in the fighting - and turned the tide in that country - and perhaps more importantly politically - the balance of power in the whole region.

Now that the Americans have this time acted on a chemical attack what will be the wider consequences and ramifications?

Also did he really need to get involved - is he really making some sort of statement to the world rather just a response to what happened?

What message will the likes of Russia and China (who are actively land grabbing in the Far East by building islands in the seas and claiming sovereignty over the minerals and fish that lie around them) take out of this action?

Or is America starting to police the world for good, again?

A good move or bad move by Trump do you think?

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Just typical Trump. He wants to seem like he cares and that he is a strong leader of a powerful state but it achieves precisely nothing apart from killing some more Syrians. In a way it is just another example of virtue signalling. Fortunately as Trump has already indicated it is a one-off the Russians will let it go.

Western policy over Syria has been chaotic for years. The futility of trying to arm alleged pro-western groups was exposed over a year ago when it was revealed that America had spent over $500m and had literally nothing to show for it because most of these rebels had promptly joined extreme Islamist groups and taken their new American weapons with them. Even if Assad were overthrown what then? Another Iraq?

Bread2.0

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Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Trump's approval rating is currently hovering around the 34% mark.

When compared to his predecessors at this stage of their tenure, it's the lowest of any US president since formal records began.

And as anyone who has ever looked at his Twitter feed can tell you, the guy is obsessed with ratings and is clearly desperate to be loved and will do just about anything to try and get his numbers up.

So what does he do?

He fires a few missiles in an attempt to look "bigly strong" in a desperate attempt to improve his own personal standing in the polls.

It really is as shallow and vacuous as that. 

And the vast swathes of illiterate morons who voted for him and who get their news from Fox, Breitbart and Infowars will all lap it up.

But it won't change anything.

Syria is a mess and, as Xmiles has already pointed out, it's not a simple matter of "Good Guys Vs Bad Guys" because pretty much everybody involved in the fighting can be classed as a "Bad Guy" from our perspective.

There is no simple solution and there's a very strong argument to be had for not getting involved at all.

That may sound harsh but we stuck our noses into Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan and look how that turned out...

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
The thing that interests me is that the narrative provided to justify this action is highly questionable as the ex British Consul to Syria pointed out on TV this morning. 
Basically there is no evidence to back up the notion that Assad ordered the chemical attack so is it possible that the Russian narrative (conventional bomb hit rebel chemical store) is true? 
After all, the Americans provided loads of "evidence" that Iraq had WMD - later shown to be nonsense.
Having watched Bitter Lake etc I am coming to the conclusion that American and British foreign policy as regards the Middle East is an ongoing cover up for the mistakes of the past which they are not ready to discuss especially as so many British soldiers have died trying to defend what is increasingly looking like a big lie to protect western oil interests and the special deal with Saudi Arabia. 

I know Adam Curtis tends to sensationalise but the footage is real and compelling.

Sluffy

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Admin
wanderlust wrote:Having watched Bitter Lake etc I am coming to the conclusion that American and British foreign policy as regards the Middle East is an ongoing cover up for the mistakes of the past which they are not ready to discuss especially as so many British soldiers have died trying to defend what is increasingly looking like a big lie to protect western oil interests and the special deal with Saudi Arabia. 

I know Adam Curtis tends to sensationalise but the footage is real and compelling.

Have you only just discovered Bitter Lake - you've mentioned it on three separate threads in the last few hours or so?

I recommended it and posted a link to it when it was first shown on the BBC about two years ago - and it has enlightened my thinking on many of the issues that flow out from this documentary made by Curtis.

Our former poster 1874 even thanked me for bringing it to his attention.

I recommend that anyone who has yet to see it should do - as it gives you a real understanding of what is going on in the middle east and Afghanistan without the politicised spin western governments (including our own) put on things.

The documentary itself may not be absolutely true - what is the truth anyway? - but it gives a narrative that that many had not heard before and seems to give reasons to some of the riddles as to why things have gone so badly wrong in these countries when the west have actively intervened (dating back to world war I and before really).

A must see film/documentary imo.

Norpig

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John McGinlay
John McGinlay
Sluffys Dad is also bigger than yours Lusty  Laughing

Bread2.0

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Andy Walker
Andy Walker
While we're on the whole "Corporate 'Murica has fucked us over" thing, can I take two seconds to recommend two very interesting books:

"Dude, Where's My Country?" by Michael Moore and "Lies and The Lying Liars Who Tell Them" by Al Franken.

I read them both years ago and they give you a real insight corporate America and how successive (mainly Republican) administrations have covered up all sorts of dodgy shit regarding "the fight against terror" and corporate Murica's involvement in it all.

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Bread2.0 wrote:"Dude, Where's My Country?" by Michael Moore .


Is it anything like the film "Dude, Where's My Car?". Always enjoyed the silliness of that one.

Bread2.0

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Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Yes.

It's exactly like that.

Dubbya gets stoned and forgets that he's invaded Iraq.

And much hilarity then ensues.

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Sluffy wrote:
wanderlust wrote:Having watched Bitter Lake etc I am coming to the conclusion that American and British foreign policy as regards the Middle East is an ongoing cover up for the mistakes of the past which they are not ready to discuss especially as so many British soldiers have died trying to defend what is increasingly looking like a big lie to protect western oil interests and the special deal with Saudi Arabia. 

I know Adam Curtis tends to sensationalise but the footage is real and compelling.

Have you only just discovered Bitter Lake - you've mentioned it on three separate threads in the last few hours or so?
No. I just think it's relevant to a lot of what's currently happening and that it may be useful for anyone who takes the narrative we are fed at face value. I have a particular interest as I was working in the Middle East in the 70s and recognise some of the references.

Hypernormalisation has a similar theme and is also a "must see" in this context. 

Both films make me feel sorry for all the people that have died or been injured as a result of our foreign policy actions and I am particularly saddened at the role we British played in facilitating the spread of radical Islam and the subsequent demonisation of an entire religion albeit as a junior partner to the Americans.

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Bread2.0

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Andy Walker
Andy Walker
You've just got to hope that whatever the FBI have got on him and his band of merry fucking idiots, they get a wriggle on and go public with their findings PDQ.

Because the joke's getting very old now and he needs to go.

The checks and balances which exist to stop a president acting like a dictator are all well and good when it comes to legislating policy but they don't stop him acting unilaterally on shit like this and that's where he's dangerous.

Bread2.0

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Andy Walker
Andy Walker

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

....or this.

A bit worrying as Russia is more likely to nuke us first.

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
The Yanks are getting serious about the investigation into whether or not the Russians hacked the US elections to get Trump elected. 

Russian arrested in Spain faces extradition to the States.

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Boris fails at the first hurdle.

And to think this guy is leading the charge to build new business relationships.

boltonbonce

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
How much more of this can we take. We're dealing with idiots.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39572902

okocha

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Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
I naively assumed that Trump's Republican entourage would be made up of wise choices who would rein him in and provide some counter-balance to his gross points of view.. I was wrong. 

What will it take for your average Trump supporter to wake up and see these boneheads for what they are?

Norpig

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John McGinlay
John McGinlay
boltonbonce wrote:How much more of this can we take. We're dealing with idiots.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39572902
 Spicer is turning into Mike from the programme Veep which is very funny, this is real though which is even more worrying

Bread2.0

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Andy Walker
Andy Walker
okocha wrote:I naively assumed that Trump's Republican entourage would be made up of wise choices who would rein him in and provide some counter-balance to his gross points of view.. I was wrong. 

Seriously....?

I'm honestly not being an arse now but what made you think he'd suddenly abandon the habits of a lifetime and start acting for the greater good?

The GOP's been a self-serving machine for corporate 'Murica for years, so why would any of them suddenly feel the need to start playing nice?

This was always going to be a disaster, right from the moment his victory in the election was announced and it honestly staggers me that rational, intelligent people were prepared to give him a chance.

He's a vile human being who has shafted pretty much everyone he's ever dealt with in business to protect himself, so where did this sense that he'd make moderate appointments to key positions come from?

He's surrounded himself with more of his ilk and, far from draining the swamp, he's actually thrown more alligators into the damned thing.

And it was obvious this is how it would play out.

Why is anyone surprised?

His retarded fans are too stupid to understand what's going on but it amazes me that "normal" people are in any way shocked by any of this.

As I said, I'm not trying to be an arse and I mean no offence but it staggers me that intelligent folk like you thought it might all work out ok.

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Norpig wrote:
boltonbonce wrote:How much more of this can we take. We're dealing with idiots.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39572902
 Spicer is turning into Mike from the programme Veep which is very funny, this is real though which is even more worrying

Laughing and pale

Series 6 of Veep is starting on Tuesday. Very Happy

Norpig

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John McGinlay
John McGinlay
Thanks xmiles i hadn't realised it was back, it is a very funny show  Very Happy

okocha

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Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
i didn't think Trump would rein himself in, but I thought the party might act to make themselves look more honourable and civilised to the world at large ....as I said...."naively". 

I suppose I believed that intelligence and decency would naturally prevail in the end. My faith in mankind's basic goodness (i,e. the difference between Steinbeck's views and Golding's) is being tested to breaking point. Don't push me further along the sceptical path, Bread!

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I think Trump has got new management syndrome - desperate to get a quick win to reassure his supporters that he is somehow different and is going to "get things done".
First he tried with the immigration control measures but got put back in his box by the judges.
Then he tried to get the wall going but was ridiculed by the construction industry.
Then he wanted to dismantle Obamacare and ran into trouble.
Then he went after the environmental agreements to appease the fossil fuel lobby that funded him - that's ongoing.
Having failed at every turn so far I guess the chemical attack in Syria and N Korea's weapons testing played into his hands so sabre-rattling is his obvious move- regardless of the consequences.

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
This is getting silly. In the last 24 hours the Trump administration has done a U turn on two more election promises.

First he patched up his differences with NATO and instead of leaving, reaffirmed his commitment and stated "NATO is not irrelevant". He did however, say that some nations were not contributing enough - which is pretty much what Cameron and other Brits have said for a long time.

Then he backtracked on what he'd said about China being a currency manipulator (intentionally devaluing the yuan so as to make China's exports more competitive.)

No wall, no reduction of the White House staff, no new immigration controls, no dismantling of Obamacare, no new jobs, no curtailing of foreign imports, no withdrawal from NATO........

Sounds a lot like no more control of our borders, no reduction in immigration or the UKs dependency on immigration, no new trade deals, no new £350 gazillion a minute for the NHS, no maintenance of the value of Her Majesty's pound sterling, no increase in British productivity, no control over inflation etc etc etc....

Bread2.0

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Andy Walker
Andy Walker
And yet.....

...if you look at the "pro-Trump" responses to his latest ridiculous tweets, they're all thanking him for being such a great president and "getting stuff done".

Honestly, I can't get my head round it.

"Jobs are returning, illegal immigration is plummeting, law, order and justice are being restored. We are truly making America great again!"


It's the worst kind of rabble-rousing, empty rhetoric there is and yet these idiots are lapping it up.


What is wrong with these people and why can't they see it?

I get that we're all a bit biased politically towards the people we want to see in power so we cut them some slack but this idiot has lied his way through the entire process, looks clueless with his constant vacillation on key topics ("Putin's a great guy and we can work together / Putin's a dick and relations with Russia are worse than they've ever been" and "NATO's finished / NATO's not finished", etc) and is failing bigly by any key metric.

The good stuff that's happening to the economy is obviously still lagging over from Obama's fiscal policy and yet Trump is  quick to claim credit for it.

Same as all these "new" jobs he keeps saying he's created.

A quick Google search shows you that the "new" jobs he keeps crowing about being created were all agreed under the previous administration but that doesn't appear to matter to his followers.

These people are properly stupid.

It really does make you wonder what sort of an information vacuum they must live in.

They're like willing participants in some dystopian world where they're happy to be lied to because what they're hearing chimes with what they want to happen so they're not curious to check if any of it's actually true or not.

It's fecking madness on a grand scale.

Cajunboy

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Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
It's like living inside a crazy Mel Brooks film.

 It's not funny though, just very scary.

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Surprisingly little fuss over the "Mother of all bombs" and the fact he dropped it on Afghanistan and not Syria.
Perhaps that's because it cost gazillions and did £10 worth of damage.

Cajunboy

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Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Is this all just muscle flexing to let certain people know that he won't take any nonsense?

Or is it all bluff?

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