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Brexit negotiations

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391 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Dec 08 2017, 15:27

Norpig

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
But at least we get our sovereignty and whats left of the business infrastructure back eh  Rolling Eyes

The fools i am always reading on FB claim we shouldn't pay a penny to leave, i do wonder where they left their brains sometimes and i am amazed i used to associate with many of them.

392 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Dec 08 2017, 15:49

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Norpig wrote:My facebook page has erupted with fury due to, as my right wing facebook friends put it, a capitulation and they want May's head on a pole  Laughing

Laughing

393 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Dec 08 2017, 16:00

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Norpig wrote:But at least we get our sovereignty and whats left of the business infrastructure back eh  Rolling Eyes

The fools i am always reading on FB claim we shouldn't pay a penny to leave, i do wonder where they left their brains sometimes and i am amazed i used to associate with many of them.
I'm curious. What justification do they give for not paying our bill?
We ordered the stuff, so surely we have to pay for it?

394 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Dec 08 2017, 16:06

Norpig

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Various reasons Lusty but the main one seems to be that we bailed out the rest of Europe in WW2 and then let Germany off billions of pounds of debts while we still had to pay off billions we borrowed over 60 years to America and Canada.  Rolling Eyes

395 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Dec 08 2017, 16:27

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Norpig wrote:Various reasons Lusty but the main one seems to be that we bailed out the rest of Europe in WW2 and then let Germany off billions of pounds of debts while we still had to pay off billions we borrowed over 60 years to America and Canada.  Rolling Eyes
Ah. The Bill Cash/Daily Express reference to the 1953 agreement.
They are aware that it took Britain 61 years to pay off the £21 billion we borrowed from the USA and that we currently have a national debt of £1700 billion that will never be paid off aren't they?

396 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Dec 08 2017, 19:32

T.R.O.Y


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
Must admit I haven't read the agreement as of yet, but it seems from the summaries that we've accepted a dose of realism in regards to how much influence we have over the rest of the EU. Just got to suck up the fact we are the junior partner in this relationship and we had to bow to their demands.

397 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Dec 08 2017, 20:46

T.R.O.Y


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
A hypothetical question for Brexiteers:

Now it's becoming more obvious that Brexit under the terms it was sold is unlikely to be delivered, would you still want to go ahead? Or return to the previous situation.

398 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Dec 08 2017, 21:21

Bollotom2014

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Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Carry on and see where it leads. I doubt anyone would be so narrow of thought that there wouldn't be variances and hurdles as time progressed. Happy to see the NI border situation resolved as I didn't even consider that when voting. Also there had to be some financial forfeiture due to commitments. I think Barnier is continually ratcheting up things. Surprised Frau Mekel is so quiet but then she has her own problems. Overall I am satisfied with progress and happy with things right now.

399 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Dec 08 2017, 21:35

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
I agree. Its amazing the number of issues that could, and have, changed, gone wrong, or whatever, but I'm content with where we are at this time.

400 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Dec 08 2017, 21:37

T.R.O.Y


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
Didn’t know you voted out Bollotom, fair response for sure I’m glad a ‘softer’ Brexit is being pursued given the governments rhetoric earlier in the year.

401 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Dec 12 2017, 09:51

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Just in case anyone is fooled by the Tory spin on the negotiations:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42315280

and inflation is up again:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42320052

402 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Dec 12 2017, 10:28

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
Its amazing, in this continuing time of turmoil, that so many seem to think that we could, and should, be able to carry on as though nothing has changed. its not only changed, but its doing so at an accelerated rate, being driven by many different factors, a lot of them unpredictable.
One very big factor is that that we have virtually no influence, at this time, on what the EU demands of us. However, we do know the EU like to revel in their superiority, but I think will have to reconsider when, today, the PM said that without a deal, the £40bn will be taken of the table. It must be quite a shock to realise that they will have to ask some of their own members to actually pay something into the kitty.

403 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Dec 12 2017, 17:31

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
gloswhite wrote:Its amazing, in this continuing time of turmoil, that so many seem to think that we could, and should, be able to carry on as though nothing has changed. its not only changed, but its doing so at an accelerated rate, being driven by many different factors, a lot of them unpredictable.
One very big factor is that that we have virtually no influence, at this time, on what the EU demands of us. However, we do know the EU like to revel in their superiority, but I think will have to reconsider when, today, the PM said that without a deal, the £40bn will be taken of the table. It must be quite a shock to realise that they will have to ask some of their own members to actually pay something into the kitty.
I'm not convinced about this "everyone hates us" and "the EU is trying to put one over on us" narrative being touted by the same newspapers and media outlets that promoted Brexit in the first place. 
They just can't to seem to face up to the fact that we never had a strong bargaining position in the first place and they lied to the British public about it in order to sell papers.
Or more likely are trying to shovel the blame for the Brexit fiasco on to the EU rather than accept responsibility for the mess they were largely responsible for getting us into.

404 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Dec 13 2017, 10:33

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
wanderlust wrote:
gloswhite wrote:Its amazing, in this continuing time of turmoil, that so many seem to think that we could, and should, be able to carry on as though nothing has changed. its not only changed, but its doing so at an accelerated rate, being driven by many different factors, a lot of them unpredictable.
One very big factor is that that we have virtually no influence, at this time, on what the EU demands of us. However, we do know the EU like to revel in their superiority, but I think will have to reconsider when, today, the PM said that without a deal, the £40bn will be taken of the table. It must be quite a shock to realise that they will have to ask some of their own members to actually pay something into the kitty.
I'm not convinced about this "everyone hates us" and "the EU is trying to put one over on us" narrative being touted by the same newspapers and media outlets that promoted Brexit in the first place. 
They just can't to seem to face up to the fact that we never had a strong bargaining position in the first place and they lied to the British public about it in order to sell papers.
Or more likely are trying to shovel the blame for the Brexit fiasco on to the EU rather than accept responsibility for the mess they were largely responsible for getting us into.
I think the media have often gone down rabbit holes, just to antagonise the public, and with everyone joining in, it can be quite chaotic.  In all honesty, I don't believe anyone, the media, UK parties, or the EU, have come through the fiasco that is the Brexit negotiations, with any real credit.

405 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Dec 13 2017, 11:25

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
I am not sure what you expected to happen glos. The EU are negotiating from a position of strength and obviously don't want to make it easy for other countries to leave the EU. The media have covered the negotiations to the extent there have been negotiations. The Labour party under Corbyn has no clear policy on the EU. The government ... well OK that has gone even worse than expected. May's decision to do a massive u-turn and hold a snap election which destroyed the Tory majority certainly didn't help but the ineptitude of Davis, Boris and Fox is fairly breath taking.

406 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Dec 13 2017, 12:55

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
XM, unfortunately, I can't disagree with you. Being a pragmatist, I always knew that all sorts of things were going to hit the fan, but consoled myself that at least at the end of it all, we would be our own man, as it were. The forecasts of utopia and/or Armageddon haven't materialised for anyone, (yet).
As I've stated before, I knew the EU would try to make an example of us, which they have, but get the feeling that they've excelled even their own expectations, and as a result may have harmed both sides, going forward. Even if the rabbit was pulled from the hat, the negotiations, which still have a long way to go, has left a bad taste for many people, and possibly done lasting harm.
As for Davis, Boris, and Fox, I would add Gove, and agree that they haven't shown a great deal to get excited about just yet, but I'm ever hopeful. Labour are just sitting on the fence, with no apparent policy evident. (all the easier to attack the government if/should/when it all goes wrong).
Tonight's vote on the Withdrawal bill could well throw another giant spanner in the works, but it seems the norm now, three steps forward, and two backwards. I really don't know why we do this, and give the EU even more opportunity to put pressure on us.

407 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Dec 13 2017, 16:54

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
gloswhite wrote:XM, unfortunately, I can't disagree with you. Being a pragmatist, I always knew that all sorts of things were going to hit the fan, but consoled myself that at least at the end of it all, we would be our own man, as it were. 

I still don't get the advantage of "being your own man,as it were" in a global economy where much if not most of the investment in the UK is currently foreign, where our energy and much of our raw material suppliers are foreign as is much of our labour force and that we are dependent on foreign trade for pretty much everything including the food we eat.

Why the hell would we want to be Billy no mates? We're all immigrants anyway.

408 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Dec 13 2017, 17:49

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
wanderlust wrote:
gloswhite wrote:XM, unfortunately, I can't disagree with you. Being a pragmatist, I always knew that all sorts of things were going to hit the fan, but consoled myself that at least at the end of it all, we would be our own man, as it were. 

I still don't get the advantage of "being your own man,as it were" in a global economy where much if not most of the investment in the UK is currently foreign, where our energy and much of our raw material suppliers are foreign as is much of our labour force and that we are dependent on foreign trade for pretty much everything including the food we eat.

Why the hell would we want to be Billy no mates? We're all immigrants anyway.

Sounds like you have been watching Invasion! with Sam Willis.

409 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Dec 13 2017, 19:34

boltonbonce

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
May loses key Brexit vote.

410 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Dec 13 2017, 20:02

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
boltonbonce wrote:May loses key Brexit vote.

Laughing Laughing Laughing

411 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Dec 13 2017, 21:40

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
wanderlust wrote:
gloswhite wrote:XM, unfortunately, I can't disagree with you. Being a pragmatist, I always knew that all sorts of things were going to hit the fan, but consoled myself that at least at the end of it all, we would be our own man, as it were. 

I still don't get the advantage of "being your own man,as it were" in a global economy where much if not most of the investment in the UK is currently foreign, where our energy and much of our raw material suppliers are foreign as is much of our labour force and that we are dependent on foreign trade for pretty much everything including the food we eat.

Why the hell would we want to be Billy no mates? We're all immigrants anyway.
Wander, its not all about the money !!!
Being able to decide your own destiny is somewhat better than having your strings pulled by an unelected body.

412 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Dec 13 2017, 21:40

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
xmiles wrote:
boltonbonce wrote:May loses key Brexit vote.

Laughing Laughing Laughing
Very mature.

413 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Dec 13 2017, 21:48

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
gloswhite wrote:
xmiles wrote:
boltonbonce wrote:May loses key Brexit vote.

Laughing Laughing Laughing
Very mature.

Well I think it's funny when May isn't trusted to tell the truth by members of her own party.

414 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Dec 14 2017, 14:47

wanderlust

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
xmiles wrote:
wanderlust wrote:
gloswhite wrote:XM, unfortunately, I can't disagree with you. Being a pragmatist, I always knew that all sorts of things were going to hit the fan, but consoled myself that at least at the end of it all, we would be our own man, as it were. 

I still don't get the advantage of "being your own man,as it were" in a global economy where much if not most of the investment in the UK is currently foreign, where our energy and much of our raw material suppliers are foreign as is much of our labour force and that we are dependent on foreign trade for pretty much everything including the food we eat.

Why the hell would we want to be Billy no mates? We're all immigrants anyway.

Sounds like you have been watching Invasion! with Sam Willis.
I am undoubtedly a beaker person.

415 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Dec 14 2017, 15:10

wanderlust

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
gloswhite wrote:
wanderlust wrote:
gloswhite wrote:XM, unfortunately, I can't disagree with you. Being a pragmatist, I always knew that all sorts of things were going to hit the fan, but consoled myself that at least at the end of it all, we would be our own man, as it were. 

I still don't get the advantage of "being your own man,as it were" in a global economy where much if not most of the investment in the UK is currently foreign, where our energy and much of our raw material suppliers are foreign as is much of our labour force and that we are dependent on foreign trade for pretty much everything including the food we eat.

Why the hell would we want to be Billy no mates? We're all immigrants anyway.
Wander, its not all about the money !!!
Being able to decide your own destiny is somewhat better than having your strings pulled by an unelected body.
And in that spirit, our elected body has decided to take back control from May who was/is attempting to railroad through legislation which circumvents our democratic process - and not just Brexit legislation.

However, I would argue that as one quarter of the largest UK businesses are foreign owned the "taking back control" argument is utter nonsense. And ironically the UK Withdrawal Bill is simply writing EU legislation into British Law so what changes?

416 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Dec 14 2017, 19:37

gloswhite

avatar
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
wanderlust wrote:
gloswhite wrote:
wanderlust wrote:
gloswhite wrote:XM, unfortunately, I can't disagree with you. Being a pragmatist, I always knew that all sorts of things were going to hit the fan, but consoled myself that at least at the end of it all, we would be our own man, as it were. 

I still don't get the advantage of "being your own man,as it were" in a global economy where much if not most of the investment in the UK is currently foreign, where our energy and much of our raw material suppliers are foreign as is much of our labour force and that we are dependent on foreign trade for pretty much everything including the food we eat.

Why the hell would we want to be Billy no mates? We're all immigrants anyway.
Wander, its not all about the money !!!
Being able to decide your own destiny is somewhat better than having your strings pulled by an unelected body.
And in that spirit, our elected body has decided to take back control from May who was/is attempting to railroad through legislation which circumvents our democratic process - and not just Brexit legislation.

However, I would argue that as one quarter of the largest UK businesses are foreign owned the "taking back control" argument is utter nonsense. And ironically the UK Withdrawal Bill is simply writing EU legislation into British Law so what changes?
No disrespect, but this is bollocks, and yet again, based on finance and not all the major concerns.

I think you sum up well your bias against Brexit, when you use a minority statistic, as the main influence of your argument.  Lets put it another way, 75% of business is owned by British companies. I personally would like it to be much more, but surely, in this modern world, such diversity is good? Who knows, maybe the reason for the 25% is due to the influence of people forever looking only at the financial side, and pushing for profits, regardless of the costs or source of the funds. Then there are those who want to retain the status quo, (usually for their own ends), afraid of any attempts to rectify any situation.

417 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Dec 14 2017, 22:38

xmiles

avatar
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Glos you state that "Being able to decide your own destiny is somewhat better than having your strings pulled by an unelected body" but can you give any examples of what you think this will mean in practice?

Personally I believe that we have had some very beneficial legislation from the EU and some very bad laws from the our own government. The taking back control line sold by the brexit campaign is pretty meaningless as individuals like us have virtually zero control. The people and organisations with real control will still be the very rich and powerful just the same. The only real difference is that the EU actually stood up to the multinationals and tax avoiders more effectively than our own government - at least in part because unlike the Tories they are not directly funded by these people.

418 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Dec 14 2017, 23:10

T.R.O.Y


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
Xmiles is right to query Glos’s accusation, if you can’t clarify this position please stop claiming it. It’s not true and it’s  not helpful.

419 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Dec 15 2017, 14:39

wanderlust

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
gloswhite wrote:
wanderlust wrote:
gloswhite wrote:
wanderlust wrote:
gloswhite wrote:XM, unfortunately, I can't disagree with you. Being a pragmatist, I always knew that all sorts of things were going to hit the fan, but consoled myself that at least at the end of it all, we would be our own man, as it were. 

I still don't get the advantage of "being your own man,as it were" in a global economy where much if not most of the investment in the UK is currently foreign, where our energy and much of our raw material suppliers are foreign as is much of our labour force and that we are dependent on foreign trade for pretty much everything including the food we eat.

Why the hell would we want to be Billy no mates? We're all immigrants anyway.
Wander, its not all about the money !!!
Being able to decide your own destiny is somewhat better than having your strings pulled by an unelected body.
And in that spirit, our elected body has decided to take back control from May who was/is attempting to railroad through legislation which circumvents our democratic process - and not just Brexit legislation.

However, I would argue that as one quarter of the largest UK businesses are foreign owned the "taking back control" argument is utter nonsense. And ironically the UK Withdrawal Bill is simply writing EU legislation into British Law so what changes?
No disrespect, but this is bollocks, and yet again, based on finance and not all the major concerns.

I think you sum up well your bias against Brexit, when you use a minority statistic, as the main influence of your argument.  Lets put it another way, 75% of business is owned by British companies. I personally would like it to be much more, but surely, in this modern world, such diversity is good? Who knows, maybe the reason for the 25% is due to the influence of people forever looking only at the financial side, and pushing for profits, regardless of the costs or source of the funds. Then there are those who want to retain the status quo, (usually for their own ends), afraid of any attempts to rectify any situation.
Sorry Glos but it's just my opinion at the end of the day. I really think the whole fiasco is a disaster and I refer to the negative financial impact it will and already is starting to have purely because that is the biggest issue for our country. It will affect everything.

420 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Dec 17 2017, 16:27

T.R.O.Y


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka

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