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Brexit negotiations

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511 Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Jan 29 2018, 17:24

Sluffy

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Admin
T.R.O.Y wrote:I made the same point three days ago, it’s perfectly valid.

You haven't been stewing over it for the last three days though.

(nor being deliberately selective in posting only negative news on Brexit).

That's a whole different thing.

For what it is worth I posted a link to the video below way back in July last year on this very thread (post No58) which basically comes to the same conclusion - that Brexit will happen but with a longer roll out to minimise the risk to the economy.

Seems to me the video reasoning is still sound and on track - despite the last six months of selective 'doom and gloom' Wanderlust world economy updates he's constantly been giving us - no matter how far from reality they are!

512 Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Jan 29 2018, 17:43

Cajunboy

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Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
But will it be BREXIT or BRINO?

513 Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Jan 29 2018, 18:28

Sluffy

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Admin
Cajunboy wrote:But will it be BREXIT or BRINO?

Brexit means Brexit - obviously!

So Brexit in name only will still = Brexit.

Very Happy



514 Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Jan 29 2018, 18:44

T.R.O.Y


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Sluffy - aside from the Bank of England’s forecast last week, it has been doom and gloom the last 12 months. Slump in the pound, high inflation, low productivity and low wages, obviously this isn’t caused by brexit in isolation - but it’s a factor.

And let’s face it, ending up with a BRINO situation could easily be termed a disaster for the monumental waste of time and money we’ll have gone through. It’s only viewed as something of a victory because the alternative May was pursuing appeared so much more damaging.

You’re crusade to disagree with everything Lust posts is blinding your judgement somewhat.

515 Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Jan 29 2018, 20:47

Sluffy

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Admin
T.R.O.Y wrote:Sluffy - aside from the Bank of England’s forecast last week, it has been doom and gloom the last 12 months. Slump in the pound, high inflation, low productivity and low wages, obviously this isn’t caused by brexit in isolation - but it’s a factor.

And let’s face it, ending up with a BRINO situation could easily be termed a disaster for the monumental waste of time and money we’ll have gone through. It’s only viewed as something of a victory because the alternative May was pursuing appeared so much more damaging.  

You’re crusade to disagree with everything Lust posts is blinding your judgement somewhat.

And you argue for the sake of it.

Are you honestly telling me that apart from one isolated Bank of England forecast that there as been absolutely NO good news economically in the last twelve months

Nothing at all, not even a hint of one?

We all know that is complete bollocks and we all know what you are up to yet again.

I really don't know which of the three of us - Wanderlust, you and I, is the most pathetic - one of us wastes his time on an internet footy forum being bitter and twisted over a democratic vote he doesn't like the outcome of, another of us wastes his time going to the bother of better informing him on some of his most outlandish claims, and the final one waits to pick online, unending arguments against people he's never met.

I guess I've got the best claim of being the saddest loser of us three because I am aware I'm being soft by actually trying to help and inform people (on the internet!) - you two however, one is simply bitter and the other thinks they are being clever and manipulative.  

I could get off my arse more and try to help people in the real world and not on the internet - whereas you two are both so far up your own arses that you probably are not aware you're wasting your life's away anyway by acting petulant and childish and probably only post on here because people swerve you in real life if you behave in the same way you do on here.  (And if you don't behave like that in the real world then why do it on here?).

So how about Wanderlust letting the Brexit vote go, you tolerating others opinions rather than continually arguing with people if they simply don't share your point of view, and I'll get out a bit more and become a bit less sadder than posting stuff like this on here like I just have?

Is it a deal?

(Or am I being to hopeful that people might be prepared to change for the good of it?)

516 Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Jan 29 2018, 21:55

finlaymcdanger

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El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf

517 Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Jan 29 2018, 22:23

Bollotom2014

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Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Round and round, the same old argument with a few of the most recent buzzwords added here and there. Far better to just start at post #1 and go to the end and repeat. Very little has changed and nor will it as long as some, of all persuasions, keep up the ad hominem tirade.

518 Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Jan 29 2018, 23:39

T.R.O.Y


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Sluffy I’m really not interested in your chase of Lust, more than happy to continue ignoring whatever it is, but I will of course keep posting my opinion on all topics I hold an interest in across the site - that much has never changed.

Bollotom, you’re quick to condemn others for voicing an opinion. But why not offer your own? The situation has changed markedly since Brexit I think we’re in a third stage - 1. May pursues hard Brexit 2. Loses majority, forced to give up 3. Under pressure again by hard Brexiteers to toughen stance - whether it will cause her downfall is now the question.

519 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Jan 30 2018, 08:21

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
And here is the analysis the government doesn't want you to see:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42867668

All bad news and the only thing the government can come up with is the excuse that its preferred fantasy have cake and eat it deal has not been included.

520 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Jan 30 2018, 10:30

Bollotom2014

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Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
T.R.O.Y wrote:Sluffy I’m really not interested in your chase of Lust, more than happy to continue ignoring whatever it is, but I will of course keep posting my opinion on all topics I hold an interest in across the site - that much has never changed.

Bollotom, you’re quick to condemn others for voicing an opinion. But why not offer your own? The situation has changed markedly since Brexit I think we’re in a third stage - 1. May pursues hard Brexit 2. Loses majority, forced to give up 3. Under pressure again by hard Brexiteers to toughen stance - whether it will cause her downfall is now the question.

I think you'll find I have condemned no-one. I simply made a point that all this thread has done is gone around in circles. Obviously you are a dyed in the wood Labour and I am dyed in the wool Tory. A bit like one of us supporting BWFC and someone else supporting ManUre. I do think we should just crack on.

521 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Jan 30 2018, 10:40

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Bollotom2014 wrote:
T.R.O.Y wrote:Sluffy I’m really not interested in your chase of Lust, more than happy to continue ignoring whatever it is, but I will of course keep posting my opinion on all topics I hold an interest in across the site - that much has never changed.

Bollotom, you’re quick to condemn others for voicing an opinion. But why not offer your own? The situation has changed markedly since Brexit I think we’re in a third stage - 1. May pursues hard Brexit 2. Loses majority, forced to give up 3. Under pressure again by hard Brexiteers to toughen stance - whether it will cause her downfall is now the question.

I think you'll find I have condemned no-one. I simply made a point that all this thread has done is gone around in circles. Obviously you are a dyed in the wood Labour and I am dyed in the wool Tory. A bit like one of us supporting BWFC and someone else supporting ManUre. I do think we should just crack on.

The reason some of us keep bringing up the problems with brexit is that "just cracking on" is, in our view, the equivalent of driving a car off the edge of a cliff. Perhaps sometimes it is a good idea to apply the brakes before going over the cliff.

522 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Jan 30 2018, 12:12

T.R.O.Y


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
If you find threads boring, don’t read them. I’ve never understood when people moan, don’t read it if you think it’s going round in circles. Those of us who have an opinion on it clearly disagree.

523 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Jan 30 2018, 12:40

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
T.R.O.Y wrote:If you find threads boring, don’t read them. I’ve never understood when people moan, don’t read it if you think it’s going round in circles. Those of us who have an opinion on it clearly disagree.
Exactly and it would be boring if we all saw things the same way. Plus the Brexit situation remains a hot topic that continues to develop daily so it's far more relevant than most other threads and is enhanced by Sluffy's self-righteous tantrums and transparent agenda. If folk aren't going to contribute or join in the fun then they should simply stay away.

524 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Jan 30 2018, 12:46

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
I'm with Bollotom. There's been nothing radically new on here, just very slight variations of single threads, of the main argument. Hardly something worth getting our knickers in a knot about. 
I'm just waiting to see how far down the river May sells us. I used to like her, but now see she is nothing more than a weak politician who is happy to give way, and even capitulate, on key Brexit issues. Its a very short sighted view, and one that will cause many more problems in the future, political as well as financial, if we do not have a clearly defined future role for the UK. All those who want to concede major points to the EU are doing nothing other than bending over, and inviting Europe to shaft us. How can we hold our heads up high if we keep giving in? We will hold no creedence whatsoever, if we go cap in hand to the EU.

525 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Jan 30 2018, 13:11

T.R.O.Y


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
I think the choice is now far more clear cut, May tried to act tough by triggering Article 50 very early and laying out her ‘red lines’. But the EU didn’t blink, and now she’s scrambling because behind closed doors it’s obvious she wants some form of deal. 

So the choice is accept a deal that essentially makes us BRINO, or walk away and risk economic disaster (according to experts at least).

526 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Jan 30 2018, 13:22

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
gloswhite wrote:I'm with Bollotom. There's been nothing radically new on here, just very slight variations of single threads, of the main argument. Hardly something worth getting our knickers in a knot about. 
I'm just waiting to see how far down the river May sells us. I used to like her, but now see she is nothing more than a weak politician who is happy to give way, and even capitulate, on key Brexit issues. Its a very short sighted view, and one that will cause many more problems in the future, political as well as financial, if we do not have a clearly defined future role for the UK. All those who want to concede major points to the EU are doing nothing other than bending over, and inviting Europe to shaft us. How can we hold our heads up high if we keep giving in? We will hold no creedence whatsoever, if we go cap in hand to the EU.

You have a surprisingly naive understanding of our negotiations work in the real world (and not in brexit fantasy land). To put it simply when two parties negotiate the stronger party has much more power over the negotiations, and who is stronger? Us or the other 27 countries in the EU?

527 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Jan 30 2018, 13:29

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
xmiles wrote:You have a surprisingly naive understanding of our negotiations work in the real world (and not in brexit fantasy land).

You really are becoming a total knob. I used to like and respect your posts, but this subject has turned you into a know-it-all gobshite who thinks his opinion is always right.

528 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Jan 30 2018, 13:34

Sluffy

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Admin
xmiles wrote:
gloswhite wrote:I'm with Bollotom. There's been nothing radically new on here, just very slight variations of single threads, of the main argument. Hardly something worth getting our knickers in a knot about. 
I'm just waiting to see how far down the river May sells us. I used to like her, but now see she is nothing more than a weak politician who is happy to give way, and even capitulate, on key Brexit issues. Its a very short sighted view, and one that will cause many more problems in the future, political as well as financial, if we do not have a clearly defined future role for the UK. All those who want to concede major points to the EU are doing nothing other than bending over, and inviting Europe to shaft us. How can we hold our heads up high if we keep giving in? We will hold no creedence whatsoever, if we go cap in hand to the EU.

You have a surprisingly naive understanding of our negotiations work in the real world (and not in brexit fantasy land). To put it simply when two parties negotiate the stronger party has much more power over the negotiations, and who is stronger? Us or the other 27 countries in the EU?

That's somewhat of a naive statement in itself actually.

Nobody really wins if one side has to resort to exerting power to get their way when negotiating anything.

Ideal negotiations are achieved when both sides walk away with a deal they are happy with and not feel forced into, irrespective of who is in the strongest position.



529 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Jan 30 2018, 13:45

T.R.O.Y


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
The side who exerts their power to get the best deal wins. 

The situation with everyone walking away happy is a compromise, with both sides accepting a diminished return.

530 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Jan 30 2018, 13:52

boltonbonce

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Natasha Whittam wrote:
xmiles wrote:You have a surprisingly naive understanding of our negotiations work in the real world (and not in brexit fantasy land).

You really are becoming a total knob. I used to like and respect your posts, but this subject has turned you into a know-it-all gobshite who thinks his opinion is always right.
Razz

531 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Jan 30 2018, 13:53

T.R.O.Y


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Laughing

532 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Jan 30 2018, 13:54

T.R.O.Y


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Only room for one know-it all gobshite on Nuts apparently, we have at least 6.

533 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Jan 30 2018, 13:57

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
But I know I'm right, it's you gobshites that are wrong.

534 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Jan 30 2018, 14:04

Sluffy

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Admin
T.R.O.Y wrote:The side who exerts their power to get the best deal wins. 

The situation with everyone walking away happy is a compromise, with both sides accepting a diminished return.

Better a compromise than a pissed off participant of the end deal as ultimately the 'forced' negotiated settlement will not last - and both sides ultimately lose.

I guess the classic example being the punishing Treaty of Versailles imposed by the French victors of WWI ultimately on Germany which directly led to the collapse of the German economy, the rise of fascism and the start of WWII just twenty years later.

At the end of WWII the victors took a completely different strategy by building Germany's economy up by means of the Marshall Plan and turned it into Europe's power house even at the expense of the victors such as France and ourselves.

Europe gained far more - and ultimately we are all wealthier by allowing a defeated (economic) rival's economy to rise from the ashes rather than punish them and face a probable war again in a relative short time.

Win/win is always better than win/lose, which more often than not over time will move to a lose/lose position anyway.

535 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Jan 30 2018, 14:24

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Sluffy wrote:
T.R.O.Y wrote:The side who exerts their power to get the best deal wins. 

The situation with everyone walking away happy is a compromise, with both sides accepting a diminished return.

Better a compromise than a pissed off participant of the end deal as ultimately the 'forced' negotiated settlement will not last - and both sides ultimately lose.

I guess the classic example being the punishing Treaty of Versailles imposed by the French victors of WWI ultimately on Germany which directly led to the collapse of the German economy, the rise of fascism and the start of WWII just twenty years later.

At the end of WWII the victors took a completely different strategy by building Germany's economy up by means of the Marshall Plan and turned it into Europe's power house even at the expense of the victors such as France and ourselves.

Europe gained far more - and ultimately we are all wealthier by allowing a defeated economic rival's economy to rise from the ashes rather than punish them and face a probable war again in a relative short time.

Win/win is always better than win/lose, which more often than not over time will move to a lose/lose position anyway.


You (and inevitably Nat) are completely missing the point I made. I said "the stronger party has much more power over the negotiations". I didn't say this was a good thing and of course it often leads to very unsatisfactory deals like the Treaty of Versailles. Normally a win/win is much better for all concerned. My point is that we are the weaker party in this negotiation and I have little confidence in the EU going for a win/win deal if for no other reason than to discourage other countries from leaving the EU.

536 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Jan 30 2018, 16:05

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I think that the problem is that if we end up with "Brexit in name only" we will have lost big time as our Government will have been tied up with a single issue for years - at the expense of other much needed legislation, we'll have spent a fortune in getting to the trade position we were in before if we're lucky, we'll have a devalued pound and neither Leave nor Remain voters will be happy about it.
Unfortunately I reckon Theresa May will sell it as a win for Britain. 
This is of course all conjecture currently - which IMO is perfectly acceptable on a chat room thread.
We are quite happy to speculate and pass opinions about football outcomes - we even have prediction competitions - so why would it not be acceptable to speculate about the outcomes of Brexit negotiations? After all the Government are currently giving their opinions on the latest leaked Whitehall briefing. So why shouldn't we?

537 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Jan 31 2018, 10:49

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
xmiles wrote:
gloswhite wrote:I'm with Bollotom. There's been nothing radically new on here, just very slight variations of single threads, of the main argument. Hardly something worth getting our knickers in a knot about. 
I'm just waiting to see how far down the river May sells us. I used to like her, but now see she is nothing more than a weak politician who is happy to give way, and even capitulate, on key Brexit issues. Its a very short sighted view, and one that will cause many more problems in the future, political as well as financial, if we do not have a clearly defined future role for the UK. All those who want to concede major points to the EU are doing nothing other than bending over, and inviting Europe to shaft us. How can we hold our heads up high if we keep giving in? We will hold no creedence whatsoever, if we go cap in hand to the EU.

You have a surprisingly naive understanding of our negotiations work in the real world (and not in brexit fantasy land). To put it simply when two parties negotiate the stronger party has much more power over the negotiations, and who is stronger? Us or the other 27 countries in the EU?
Don't be a dipshit XM. Of course I understand whats going on, even an eejit can see that 27 against 1 aren't good odds, however, if some of those 27 are prepared to give way on some things, then who knows what may happen. Might doesn't always win, and there always has to be room for maneuver and possible changes of view. Your view of negotiations seem to be looking only at the short term solution. 
I have to admit that never in my life have I been called naive before. A new accolade, by XM, thanks mucker, seems were getting on better than ever  Very Happy

538 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Jan 31 2018, 11:11

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
gloswhite wrote:
xmiles wrote:
gloswhite wrote:I'm with Bollotom. There's been nothing radically new on here, just very slight variations of single threads, of the main argument. Hardly something worth getting our knickers in a knot about. 
I'm just waiting to see how far down the river May sells us. I used to like her, but now see she is nothing more than a weak politician who is happy to give way, and even capitulate, on key Brexit issues. Its a very short sighted view, and one that will cause many more problems in the future, political as well as financial, if we do not have a clearly defined future role for the UK. All those who want to concede major points to the EU are doing nothing other than bending over, and inviting Europe to shaft us. How can we hold our heads up high if we keep giving in? We will hold no creedence whatsoever, if we go cap in hand to the EU.

You have a surprisingly naive understanding of our negotiations work in the real world (and not in brexit fantasy land). To put it simply when two parties negotiate the stronger party has much more power over the negotiations, and who is stronger? Us or the other 27 countries in the EU?
Don't be a dipshit XM. Of course I understand whats going on, even an eejit can see that 27 against 1 aren't good odds, however, if some of those 27 are prepared to give way on some things, then who knows what may happen. Might doesn't always win, and there always has to be room for maneuver and possible changes of view. Your view of negotiations seem to be looking only at the short term solution. 
I have to admit that never in my life have I been called naive before. A new accolade, by XM, thanks mucker, seems were getting on better than ever  Very Happy

As I have already said in reply to sluffy (and I think you accept) the stronger party has much more power over the negotiations. I didn't say this was a good thing and of course it often leads to very unsatisfactory deals like the Treaty of Versailles. My point is that we are the weaker party in this negotiation and I have little confidence in the EU going for a win/win deal if for no other reason than to discourage other countries from leaving the EU.

The whole brexit negotiating position seems to be based on two very optimistic fantasies:
1. the EU are going to give us a good deal despite them having a much stronger negotiating position and no incentive to do us any favours, and
2. we will get good trade deals with other countries sufficient to replace those we already have, for which there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever and in fact some evidence to the contrary e.g. Trump's one consistent policy is to "put America first".

539 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Jan 31 2018, 11:34

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
Agreed XM. Why people think the EU are nice people, and we would be safe within their confines is one thing, but lets be honest, we have seen nothing whatsoever from any of the EU negotiations to fill us with either optimism, or confidence. They have been intransigent, overly demanding, and people such as Guy Verhofstadt have personally insulted our Prime Minister, as well as members of her cabinet, along with the British public. Whatever our views, it is grossly disrespectful, and unacceptable, for a foreign diplomat to do this. So much for our European 'friends'. 
Whatever the outcome, we have seriously damaged our own reputation as a solid and forward looking country, managed by a (relatively), stable government.
We are one of the worlds largest economies, and we are being treated, publicly, in a disgraceful manner. Makes me, but obviously not a lot of the remainers, wonder how we will be treated if they get their wish for us to remain in the EU.

540 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Jan 31 2018, 12:07

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
gloswhite wrote:Agreed XM. Why people think the EU are nice people, and we would be safe within their confines is one thing, but lets be honest, we have seen nothing whatsoever from any of the EU negotiations to fill us with either optimism, or confidence. They have been intransigent, overly demanding, and people such as Guy Verhofstadt have personally insulted our Prime Minister, as well as members of her cabinet, along with the British public. Whatever our views, it is grossly disrespectful, and unacceptable, for a foreign diplomat to do this. So much for our European 'friends'. 
Whatever the outcome, we have seriously damaged our own reputation as a solid and forward looking country, managed by a (relatively), stable government.
We are one of the worlds largest economies, and we are being treated, publicly, in a disgraceful manner. Makes me, but obviously not a lot of the remainers, wonder how we will be treated if they get their wish for us to remain in the EU.

If we do stay in the EU I agree our status is definitely going to be damaged. At the least we will probably lose our existing opt outs. Given the result of the needless referendum I think we are basically screwed now.

I know it is rehashing old material but I could never understand how so many people really thought that anything supported by the Sun, Daily Mail, Farage, Boris, Rees-Mogg, Katie Hopkins, David Icke, Trump, Putin and a few assorted rich tax exiles could be good for most people in Britain.

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