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Brexit negotiations

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61 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jul 28 2017, 09:47

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
From my perspective, most of the moaning is coming from the Leave voters who already are having to accept that the reality is somewhat different from what they thought they individually voted for. Complaining about posting the news as the story unfolds is met with tired media mantras of "we've done it now so let's just get on with it" as if somehow the magic Brexit fairy is going to wave her magic wand and give Britain the deal that they imagined we would get.
But the Leavers' imaginary deal is a deal without any foundation in economic reality and contains no details. In fact the absence of detail of what Britain hopes to get/realistically can get underpins the idea that there never was a single vision of life outside the EU which is perhaps why Leave voters frequently express different ideas of what the deal will/should look like.
However these negotiations will affect the lives of our children for generations to come and therefore it's only right that the details are commented on as they start to emerge. 
It's not moaning.
It is filling in the gaps and providing an insight into our potential future outside the EU - because there are a lot of gaps given that they voted for this without really understanding what they have let themselves - and sadly the rest of us - in for.
And it's clear that a) the Government/negotiators are starting to realise the enormity of Brexit and b) the details are going to emerge over a very long time. Only today, Hammond has accepted that we won't be able to sign a deal with Europe until after 2022!
What did he think was going to happen?
That they'd roll over and agree to all our demands within months?
That follows on from their desperate bid to assuage the people by claiming yesterday that freedom of movement would end in 2019.
So in the same spirit of "why show your cards ahead of a negotiation" which has been trotted out regularly to justify the Government failing to provide a proper Brexit exit strategy, surely announcing that before negotiations are concluded is a bit of a faux pas even though it should prevent the natives from getting too restless too early. I guess they see it as a "quick win".
Nobody wants a good deal for Britain more than I do but I think it's important that the details are reported on and discussed as they emerge - regardless of how uncomfortable that may make some people feel, because this is our future as a nation at stake.

62 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jul 28 2017, 11:17

Reebok Trotter

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
For those interested, this is well worth watching!

https://t.co/gPvabntIDT



Last edited by Reebok Trotter on Fri Jul 28 2017, 11:36; edited 1 time in total

63 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jul 28 2017, 11:17

Reebok Trotter

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Cool

64 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jul 28 2017, 11:30

Sluffy

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Admin
wanderlust wrote:From my perspective, most of the moaning is coming from the Leave voters who already are having to accept that the reality is somewhat different from what they thought they individually voted for. Complaining about posting the news as the story unfolds is met with tired media mantras of "we've done it now so let's just get on with it" as if somehow the magic Brexit fairy is going to wave her magic wand and give Britain the deal that they imagined we would get.It's not moaning.

All the moaning on this forum is coming from you mate.

You can moan until the cows come home but it won't make a jot of difference.

Actions speak louder than words - so what are you doing to stop Brexit happening - nothing at all.

All the legal, political and social paths are leading to Brexit as that video above explains.

Until you can turn that around Brexit is happening even if it does turn out really shit for us all and for years to come.

So if you want to stop it, get out of your armchair and become some sort of catalyst to change things in the country rather than constantly telling us on Nuts that we are all doomed!

65 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jul 28 2017, 11:49

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
So you didn't read what wrote then? Not that it would stop you from having a moan anyway.

66 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jul 28 2017, 11:58

Sluffy

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Admin
Yes, I do you the curtesy of reading your posts.

You can fill in the gaps and give us your insights from now until the day you die but it won't change a single thing will it.

Actions speak louder than words, remember.

Go and DO something to stop Brexit if you think you can, otherwise accept the inevitable like the rest of us and get on with your life.


67 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jul 28 2017, 13:28

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
So because I am not doing anything about Brexit as far as you know, you feel anyone who isn't actively doing something about the things they are concerned about isn't entitled to an opinion?

OK then, I'll sort out Brexit when you have sorted out the dark web, prosthetic penis attackers, your relationship with Chris Manning, paedophilia, the Labour Party, the ST and all the other stuff you regularly whinge about. 

Let me know when you've sorted everything out and I'll get right on to the Brexit issue....


PS: If you don't mind getting drugs out of cycling and sport in general while you're at it you'll be doing us all a big favour.

68 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jul 28 2017, 13:49

Sluffy

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Admin
There's a difference between an opinion and constant, ceaseless, endless bitching and moaning over nothing you can do about - and are not doing anything about (otherwise you would be the first to tell us all what you have been doing).

Unsurprising to see you've turned this into something personal against me again (you called me a fascist last time of course) and a peculiarly odd and extremely bizarre list of subjects you seem to think I care about.

Have you been drinking?

69 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jul 28 2017, 14:47

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

70 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jul 28 2017, 20:57

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
Oh dear, and things were definitely looking up in the last 3 or 4 weeks. 1 step forward, and 2 back.

71 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Aug 02 2017, 20:58

bwfc71

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Sluffy wrote:
bwfc71 wrote:I'd rather not live on the laurels of "what will be, will be" as seen already the UK is floundering.  I do not want the country to end up worse than at present, but it definitely heading that way with the Brexit.  Does anyone really want to be worse off than what they are now?

Words are cheap Chris.

What exactly are you doing to stop Brexit?

Watch this short video (4 min 30 secs) from the BBC  entitled Reality Check - Is Brexit Inevitable in respect of the Law, Politics and Practicalities of this matter.

When you, Wanderlust or anybody else can actually say they've DONE SOMETHING to help stop Brexit then I'll listen and be happy that you have.  Until then you can REMOAN until your hearts content but it won't make a jot of difference.

Watch what IS going to happen unless you find a way of stopping it - which of course you won't if all you do is just keep on moaning about it on here.

PS - best of luck with your new career.

Video here -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-40676514/reality-check-is-brexit-inevitable

To be fair I am an active member of a 48% group that has many things in the pipeline, never mind the current case suggesting that Article 50 was not done properly and as such Article 50 has not be invoked.  I am also helping behind the scenes with LibDems, locally, about post-Brexit what it means for me, you and everyone.

Brexit is not inevitable as many things can happen between now and 2019 and things are in progress as we speak to either delay or completely stop it.  Even Labour are changing their minds with regards to a new referendum with regards to the deal that will be informally agreed - thanks to Vince Cable  - and the Referendum will be about accepting, more talks or stop the process.  The process can legally be stopped at any time, the person who devised Article 50 has already advised that stopping the process can happen, even the EU has suggested this, and this has been verified by many in the legal profession.

As it is, as you say, at moment we are heading for the exit door, but we do need to talk what is happening as having the blinkers on just means we are blind to the fact and could be very detrimental to the majority of people and also be bad for the country, then where will we be?

Not moaning, just constant discussion of what is happening - that is the realistic and healthy approach.

72 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Aug 02 2017, 23:14

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
And what standing would the country have in future discussions, when it manages to let a minority of the voters hijack democracy, and we stay in the EU? This result would have so many ramifications, that I feel would be an even worse settlement than anything available now. One thing I haven't heard from any side is that we want to be run by the EU. We can survive turbulence in financial terms, but we can't regain sovereignty once its been given away. I don't understand how people can throw their future away, just for the money they will have in their pockets.
Trying to cancel out the results of the referendum is not a healthy debate, its wheedling and whining, that will do nobody any good in the end.

73 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Aug 02 2017, 23:21

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
gloswhite wrote:And what standing would the country have in future discussions, when it manages to let a minority of the voters hijack democracy, and we stay in the EU? This result would have so many ramifications, that I feel would be an even worse settlement than anything available now. One thing I haven't heard from any side is that we want to be run by the EU. We can survive turbulence in financial terms, but we can't regain sovereignty once its been given away. I don't understand how people can throw their future away, just for the money they will have in their pockets.
Trying to cancel out the results of the referendum is not a healthy debate, its wheedling and whining, that will do nobody any good in the end.

The people throwing their future away are the people who voted for brexit.

74 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Aug 03 2017, 08:15

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
xmiles wrote:The people throwing their future away are the people who voted for brexit.

You really are an idiot.

The future isn't dependent on being in or out of the EU, the future is shaped by people striving to be the best in their chosen field. Just as it has for centuries.

You need to seek therapy, Brexit has taken over your life.

75 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Aug 03 2017, 08:23

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Natasha Whittam wrote:
xmiles wrote:The people throwing their future away are the people who voted for brexit.

You need to seek therapy.

Said the person pretending to be a woman obsessively making over 27,000 posts on a Bolton Wanderers forum. Laughing

76 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Aug 03 2017, 08:45

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
xmiles wrote:Said the person pretending to be a woman obsessively making over 27,000 posts on a Bolton Wanderers forum. Laughing  

That's a desperate post. Because I clearly hit a nerve.

77 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Aug 03 2017, 10:21

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
xmiles wrote:
gloswhite wrote:And what standing would the country have in future discussions, when it manages to let a minority of the voters hijack democracy, and we stay in the EU? This result would have so many ramifications, that I feel would be an even worse settlement than anything available now. One thing I haven't heard from any side is that we want to be run by the EU. We can survive turbulence in financial terms, but we can't regain sovereignty once its been given away. I don't understand how people can throw their future away, just for the money they will have in their pockets.
Trying to cancel out the results of the referendum is not a healthy debate, its wheedling and whining, that will do nobody any good in the end.

The people throwing their future away are the people who voted for brexit.
Possibly, but if so, I would say that we are possibly throwing away our immediate future, (although it isn't obvious by any means), in favour of our, and our kids, long-term futures.

78 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Aug 03 2017, 10:37

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
gloswhite wrote:
xmiles wrote:
gloswhite wrote:And what standing would the country have in future discussions, when it manages to let a minority of the voters hijack democracy, and we stay in the EU? This result would have so many ramifications, that I feel would be an even worse settlement than anything available now. One thing I haven't heard from any side is that we want to be run by the EU. We can survive turbulence in financial terms, but we can't regain sovereignty once its been given away. I don't understand how people can throw their future away, just for the money they will have in their pockets.
Trying to cancel out the results of the referendum is not a healthy debate, its wheedling and whining, that will do nobody any good in the end.

The people throwing their future away are the people who voted for brexit.
Possibly, but if so, I would say that we are possibly throwing away our immediate future, (although it isn't obvious by any means), in favour of our, and our kids, long-term futures.

The difference between us is that I see our prospects being much better within the EU (a view shared by most experts and most younger and better educated people) and you believe our prospects are better outside the EU. Unfortunately that is a view that is backed by the likes of Boris, Gove, Farage, the Sun and Daily Mail and racists generally. Quite how we are supposed to be better off out than in is never explained except in meaningless terms like "wanting our country back" or bare-faced lies like spending £350m a week on the NHS.

79 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Aug 03 2017, 10:39

okocha

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Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Let's face it.....nobody knows for certain. What I hate is that the nation is now divided and squabbling, whether they are the intelligentsia or the plebs.

 And while our chosen MPs argue, backbite and show their incompetence and lack of basic compassion, many of the country's citizens have entered a phase of increasingly vile behaviour with acid attacks, prison riots, violence etc. It seems to me that the mood of the country is now rebellious.... challenging authority and unwilling to tolerate inequality, incompetence or injustice.

 We have no civilised, dignified, ethical role models to follow here or in many countries of the world. Dangerous times!

80 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Aug 03 2017, 11:30

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
xmiles wrote:The difference between us is that I see our prospects being much better within the EU (a view shared by most experts and most younger and better educated people)

You really are a knob.

81 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Aug 03 2017, 11:45

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Natasha Whittam wrote:
xmiles wrote:The difference between us is that I see our prospects being much better within the EU (a view shared by most experts and most younger and better educated people)

You really are a knob.

Stating a simple fact offends you in some way so you resort to personal abuse? Very impressive.

82 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Aug 03 2017, 12:01

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
xmiles wrote:Stating a simple fact offends you in some way so you resort to personal abuse? Very impressive.

No, the fact you think everyone who voted for Brexit is thick, and those who didn't are better educated.

83 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Aug 03 2017, 13:52

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Natasha Whittam wrote:
xmiles wrote:Stating a simple fact offends you in some way so you resort to personal abuse? Very impressive.

No, the fact you think everyone who voted for Brexit is thick, and those who didn't are better educated.


You are obviously too stupid to understand the meaning of what I wrote. I said most younger and better educated people voted remain. I did not say all better educated people did nor did I say that everyone who voted for brexit is thick. To quote that right wing pro brexit source the Daily Telegraph "The higher the level of education, the higher the EU support" and here is the link: https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjUs7HvjLvVAhWJLVAKHaUmC0wQFghJMAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2F2016%2F06%2F24%2Feu-referendum-how-the-results-compare-to-the-uks-educated-old-an%2F&usg=AFQjCNGYcICsEMkbgj9DdybGeYdztV-PpQ

84 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Aug 03 2017, 14:08

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
XM, whereas I can see your desire to have us chained to a lumbering, unelected, and some say doomed, entity, have you not considered that they are not the be all and end all of world trade and politics? Just because we are neighbours, doesn't mean we have to follow slavishly, the same ideals and political views as the EU. its fairly well known, that we had very little voice in any major decisions for the past few years anyway. They have our money, and our commitments, but tend not to entertain our views or ideals. 
Tell me, in a couple of sentences, leaving out the supposed financial benefits/drawbacks, how it is better for us in the EU ?

85 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Aug 03 2017, 14:16

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
gloswhite wrote:XM, whereas I can see your desire to have us chained to a lumbering, unelected, and some say doomed, entity, have you not considered that they are not the be all and end all of world trade and politics? Just because we are neighbours, doesn't mean we have to follow slavishly, the same ideals and political views as the EU. its fairly well known, that we had very little voice in any major decisions for the past few years anyway. They have our money, and our commitments, but tend not to entertain our views or ideals. 
Tell me, in a couple of sentences, leaving out the supposed financial benefits/drawbacks, how it is better for us in the EU ?

Happy to oblige gloswhite after you have told me the benefits of leaving the EU.

However I don't understand why you want to exclude the potential financial consequences from this discussion since I think both sides would consider them significant.

86 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Aug 03 2017, 16:26

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
In or out is irrelevant now so there's no point in raking up the issues as they stood at the time of the referendum, however it will be interesting to see how the negotiations pan out and what the Tories will do if they can't secure a deal at least as good as the one we currently enjoy - which they won't. Explaining that to the country should be amusing.
Another aspect worth keeping an eye on is the growth of the EU economies, with EU GDP's currently growing twice as fast as the UK although that was expected despite the nationalist nonsense in the media. What happens if we slip even further behind? The longer it goes on the more that the EU superpowers will be able to bully the negotiators so there are interesting times ahead.

87 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Aug 03 2017, 16:40

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
xmiles wrote:
gloswhite wrote:XM, whereas I can see your desire to have us chained to a lumbering, unelected, and some say doomed, entity, have you not considered that they are not the be all and end all of world trade and politics? Just because we are neighbours, doesn't mean we have to follow slavishly, the same ideals and political views as the EU. its fairly well known, that we had very little voice in any major decisions for the past few years anyway. They have our money, and our commitments, but tend not to entertain our views or ideals. 
Tell me, in a couple of sentences, leaving out the supposed financial benefits/drawbacks, how it is better for us in the EU ?

Happy to oblige gloswhite after you have told me the benefits of leaving the EU.

However I don't understand why you want to exclude the potential financial consequences from this discussion since I think both sides would consider them significant.
Nice try XM Very Happy  You've highlighted my point that all your arguments are centered on money, and we both know that there is far more to it than that, at least some of us do.

88 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Aug 03 2017, 18:58

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
gloswhite wrote:
xmiles wrote:
gloswhite wrote:XM, whereas I can see your desire to have us chained to a lumbering, unelected, and some say doomed, entity, have you not considered that they are not the be all and end all of world trade and politics? Just because we are neighbours, doesn't mean we have to follow slavishly, the same ideals and political views as the EU. its fairly well known, that we had very little voice in any major decisions for the past few years anyway. They have our money, and our commitments, but tend not to entertain our views or ideals. 
Tell me, in a couple of sentences, leaving out the supposed financial benefits/drawbacks, how it is better for us in the EU ?

Happy to oblige gloswhite after you have told me the benefits of leaving the EU.

However I don't understand why you want to exclude the potential financial consequences from this discussion since I think both sides would consider them significant.
Nice try XM Very Happy  You've highlighted my point that all your arguments are centered on money, and we both know that there is far more to it than that, at least some of us do.

You seem to have conceded the point that we are going to be worse off economically and financially. So what exactly is it you think we are going to get by leaving the EU?

89 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Aug 03 2017, 22:21

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
I don't concede anything, but will acknowledge that we will go through a rough time financially, whether its in the short term or otherwise, only time will tell. 
We will take back management of our own judiciary, manage our own immigration policies, (no, I'm not a racist), make alliances with others over defence and intelligence, trade with whoever we want to, and more importantly, we won't need the permission  of 27 countries, (many of whom contribute absolutely nothing to the union), when making important decisions affecting the UK. 
You don't seem to understand that by going along with the EU, especially now, we will forever be the whippping boys of Europe, wanted for our money, and ignored for our political views and wants. It could well be viewed as us selling our sovereignty for a slightly more comfortable ride.

90 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Aug 03 2017, 23:03

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Here are 10 benefits of EU membership that we are now giving up:
freedom of UK citizens to live, work and retire anywhere in EU;
access to the Single Market with no tariff barriers or customs procedures;
the EU Working Time Directive which introduced paid holidays for 2 million British employees who did not receive any paid holiday at all and capped the working week at 48 hours;
unified approach to safety regulations regarding drugs, medicine and food labelling;
better rights for workers;
stronger challenge to tax avoiding multi-nationals;
massive subsidies to farming and various poorer regions;
the Good Friday agreement in Ireland;
lots of jobs as various firms migrate their offices/headquarters to the EU.

It is a xenophobic fantasy to describe us as the "whipping boys of Europe". Do you honestly believe that?

We can trade with whoever we want now but we will be in a weaker position to negotiate after we leave. Trump believes in putting America first and why would the EU give us better trading terms than we currently have?

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