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Bolton Nuts » BWFC » Wandering Minds » Brexit negotiations

Brexit negotiations

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601 Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Feb 26 2018, 20:23

Sluffy

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Admin
@T.R.O.Y wrote:Yes you’re so disinterested you brought it up and wrote 2,000 words on the topic. Just like you have no interest in politics, yet have an opinion on every political thread the site hosts.

Give it a rest Sluffy.

You do make me laugh at times!



602 Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Feb 26 2018, 23:11

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
One of the main problems with privatisation is the dishonesty involved. Privatised services are not automatically more efficient than their public sector equivalents if for no other reason than private companies are only motivated by profit and dividends. Look at the railways (higher fares, poorer performance, massive increase in subsidies and taxpayer bailouts when the companies choose) or water (zero competition, big profits, inadequate investment and excessive salaries for the bosses).

603 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Feb 27 2018, 01:31

Sluffy

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Admin
I'm not sure describing privatisation is dishonest is correct.  

Nationalised industries are monopolistic and whilst they need not necessarily motivated by profit or shareholder dividends, (the old British Industries still used to have to make a return set on money invested in them by the Government iirc) they are protected from competition and therefore have little incentive to become more efficient and effective, nor invest in research and development nor technological developments.

Competition is not necessarily a bad thing.

Certainly in terms of local government the compulsory requirement to put council blue collar work out to tender saved Town Halls across the country millions by cutting age old job protection practices and by using the massive economies of scale they had (the private companies tendering against the councils) in buying plant and machinery.

The result of this deregulation meant lower council taxes but a vast majority of the profits on running these contracts going abroad to particularly French companies (that some were saying were being 'illegally' financially supported by the French Government in order to compete in the first place!).

What mustn't be forgotten - and the point behind it all - was the political will at the time.

The Thatcher government had in mind to break the large Labour Council's that consistently defied them by deliberately overspending their government allocation to all the various councils - particularly Liverpool who at one time refused to set their Rates - which ultimately led to measures such as Rate Capping, Compulsory Competitive Tendering and ultimately the Poll Tax.

Privatisation is not all bad nor Nationalisation all good (or visa versa) - some services perhaps should be protected and not have to face competition, whilst others should - but who says which is which - the politicians of course - and depending who is trying to get power (Rule 1) and those attempting to keep power (Rule 2) - depends on what posture will be taken.

These postures may as mad as it may seem - not be in the best long terms interests of the country - and I guess the complete balls up we've got ourselves in over Brexit - from the completely unnecessary referendum by Cameron to shut up anti-EU wing of his party, to the lack of will from Corbyn to fight to prevent it - is all about short term political gains / limiting losses.

It's all a game really - Machiavellian - which he wrote about in his book The Prince five hundred years ago!

People shouldn't take politics seriously - most politicians certainly don't - you only have to look at all of those involved in the MP's expenses scandal to judge what their integratory is to their beliefs!

604 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Feb 27 2018, 08:38

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
I agree with a lot of the points you make sluffy but what I was trying to get across is that most if not all the more recent privatisations (from water onwards) have been driven by political dogma and sold dishonestly to voters as being about efficiency not greed. That is the big lie.

Where we have to have a monopoly, for purely practical reasons like water, it makes no sense to privatise. Monopolies are inherently inefficient but private monopolies are far worse because they will actively screw their customers to maximise their profits and dividends - which is exactly what we have seen with the water and railway companies.

It is just the same with the various PFI deals (thanks Gordon!) where the private companies take the profits and the taxpayer keeps all the risks. Look at two very recent examples: the collapse of Carillion and the East Coast rail bailout which will cost taxpayers hundreds of millions of pounds.

605 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Feb 27 2018, 12:05

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
More absolute drivel from Boris:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43210156

606 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Feb 27 2018, 14:47

okocha

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Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
@xmiles wrote:More absolute drivel from Boris:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43210156
Oh, Boris......seek help quickly!

607 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Feb 27 2018, 14:48

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Show some respect, that's our future PM.

608 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Feb 27 2018, 14:55

Norpig

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Natasha Whittam wrote:Show some respect, that's our future PM.
pale

609 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Feb 27 2018, 15:01

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
@Natasha Whittam wrote:Show some respect, that's our future PM.

Well he thinks he is anyway.

610 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Feb 27 2018, 15:02

Norpig

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I wouldn't trust BoJo to run a bath nevermind a country.

611 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Feb 27 2018, 16:17

okocha

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Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
All anyone has to do to get to know the real Boris is to watch this car-crash interview with Eddie Mair. 
He is such a nasty lying piece of work.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2013/mar/24/boris-johnson-accused-nasty-video

612 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Feb 27 2018, 16:21

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Even by the low standards of politicians Boris has to be one of the biggest liars in Parliament. Like Trump he is the kind of person who seems to find it easier to lie than tell the truth.

613 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Feb 27 2018, 16:31

okocha

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Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
So....when it came to Boris' pre-referendum claims, was it any surprise that he just made things up? 
His "partnership" with the equally odious Gove was truly grotesque. 

What does it say about May and her judgement that she sees fit to assign him to a major post in the cabinet?

No wonder the EU don't trust us.

614 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Feb 27 2018, 17:07

Cajunboy

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Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@okocha wrote:So....when it came to Boris' pre-referendum claims, was it any surprise that he just made things up? 
His "partnership" with the equally odious Gove was truly grotesque. 

What does it say about May and her judgement that she sees fit to assign him to a major post in the cabinet?

No wonder the EU don't trust us.
I guess it's a case of keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

615 Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Mar 12 2018, 19:15

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo

616 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Mar 14 2018, 18:48

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
The diplomatic tensions with Russia we’re seeing unfold right now is a perfect example of what many of us warned prior to Brexit. Stronger as part of the EU on defence and diplomacy than we are today, cut off and powerless.

617 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Mar 14 2018, 19:01

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
We expel 23 diplomats and the Russians expel 23 of our diplomats and we are no further forward.

618 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Mar 14 2018, 20:28

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@T.R.O.Y wrote:The diplomatic tensions with Russia we’re seeing unfold right now is a perfect example of what many of us warned prior to Brexit.

Link me to where you wrote this.

619 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Mar 14 2018, 21:15

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
I said it, don’t worry about where.

620 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Mar 14 2018, 21:46

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@T.R.O.Y wrote: Stronger as part of the EU on defence and diplomacy than we are today, cut off and powerless.
What ???  Absolute rubbish !!! Part of the EU ? In case you hadn't noticed, were in NATO, and, many of our allies that you claim have abandoned us, have, in fact, come out in support.

621 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Mar 14 2018, 21:48

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
Incidentally, I believe we have a bigger economy than Russia, and it is from this direction that we are likely to derive longer term benefits.

622 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Mar 14 2018, 21:52

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
@gloswhite wrote:
@T.R.O.Y wrote: Stronger as part of the EU on defence and diplomacy than we are today, cut off and powerless.
What ???  Absolute rubbish !!! Part of the EU ? In case you hadn't noticed, were in NATO, and, many of our allies that you claim have abandoned us, have, in fact, come out in support.

Yes Trump is really going that extra mile for us isn't he.

623 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Mar 14 2018, 21:57

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
What, like the EU, you mean ?

624 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Mar 14 2018, 22:08

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@gloswhite wrote:
@T.R.O.Y wrote: Stronger as part of the EU on defence and diplomacy than we are today, cut off and powerless.
What ???  Absolute rubbish !!! Part of the EU ? In case you hadn't noticed, were in NATO, and, many of our allies that you claim have abandoned us, have, in fact, come out in support.

Not fair to dismiss other views as rubbish. 

Do you think us expelling diplomats will have any affect? Do you think Russia would feel it more if our allies took similar steps? Are those steps more likely to be taken in a united EU?

625 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Mar 14 2018, 22:55

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
@gloswhite wrote:What, like the EU, you mean ?

So who are these allies that have "come out in support"?

626 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Mar 15 2018, 17:30

bwfc71

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Sadly as announced today Unilever, which was created by the Leverhulme Family of Bolton , have decided to close their London HQ and just keep their Rotterdam HQ, due to Brexit.   Jobs will be lost in London.

This is not the first, as two EU quango's have already decided to move from UK to The Netherlands and Germany, thus losing 1000 jobs, between them, in UK.

Also known are that the motoring manufacturing companies are also considering moving from the UK to the EU if UK does not keep the common market and the freedom of movement - and as those 2 are 2 of the 4 key principles of the EU, then the motoring industry will looks as though will be moving thus losing UK jobs.

Who will be next.

All this was predicted before the referendum, by the experts, but many decided the experts were not to be believed, how wrong those people were!

627 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Mar 15 2018, 22:07

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@xmiles wrote:
@gloswhite wrote:What, like the EU, you mean ?

So who are these allies that have "come out in support"?
No answer necessary for this one is there ? Just look at the news on the TV

628 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Mar 15 2018, 22:11

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
Sadly as announced today Unilever, which was created by the Leverhulme Family of Bolton , have decided to close their London HQ and just keep their Rotterdam HQ, due to Brexit.   


Wrong !


Unilever has the vast majority of its management and finances based in the Netherlands, and have stated quite categorically that the move is not down to Brexit, but was instigated by market forces, including finances, along with its own problems, all of which started last year.

629 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Mar 15 2018, 22:25

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@T.R.O.Y wrote:
@gloswhite wrote:
@T.R.O.Y wrote: Stronger as part of the EU on defence and diplomacy than we are today, cut off and powerless.
What ???  Absolute rubbish !!! Part of the EU ? In case you hadn't noticed, were in NATO, and, many of our allies that you claim have abandoned us, have, in fact, come out in support.

Not fair to dismiss other views as rubbish. 

Do you think us expelling diplomats will have any affect? Do you think Russia would feel it more if our allies took similar steps? Are those steps more likely to be taken in a united EU?
TROY, apologies if my response was a bit overwhelming, it wasn't intentional. However, if we don't expel unregistered intelligence officers, and build on this by gaining legitimate support from our allies, what can we do, just accept it ? I don't think so.

630 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Mar 15 2018, 22:39

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
@gloswhite wrote:
@xmiles wrote:
@gloswhite wrote:What, like the EU, you mean ?

So who are these allies that have "come out in support"?
No answer necessary for this one is there ? Just look at the news on the TV

I think you will find that France and Germany are in the EU.

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