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Brexit negotiations

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961 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Sep 11 2018, 10:01

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
UK unemployment down 55,000.

Once again the Tory government proves it knows what it's doing.

962 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Sep 11 2018, 11:15

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Natasha Whittam wrote:UK unemployment down 55,000.

Once again the Tory government proves it knows what it's doing.
I don't think anybody is questioning whether they know what they are doing or not. It's what they are (knowingly) doing that is the problem. 
Quoting quarterlies doesn't really mean anything as unemployment had already risen in Q1 so this adjustment simply means we are now where we should have been 6 months ago and in conjunction with the wages falling behind inflation we are heading exactly where the economists said we would - a low wage economy with young people in particular being less and less able to afford homes and therefore living off their parents (if they're lucky) for longer. With all the other major economies continuing to surge ahead of the UK since the referendum, the UK is slipping.

963 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Sep 12 2018, 08:44

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
@Natasha Whittam wrote:
@okocha wrote:Under the Tories, austerity policies have wrecked the police, schools, prisons, social services, health and welfare etc. and the current chequers idea proposed for Brexit is certain to be disastrous for jobs and wealth.


They only had to do that because of the mess the previous government made.

This is the reality and it was caused by the banks not the Labour government:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45487695

964 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Sep 19 2018, 10:34

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Just announced that the cost of living i.e. UK inflation has "unexpectedly" risen to 2.7% - a figure that would have been even more if it wasn't for the sectors that got the extraordinary one-off boost from the hottest summer in years and the World Cup. What the hell was "unexpected" about that? We've been saying that the threat of leaving the EU will turn the UK into a high employment/low wage economy since the referendum on these very pages. 

Another point. Brexit will have a greater effect on most people's lives than anything since the Second World War and contentious as it is, this thread has generated more debate and discussion than all but one (the Joke thread FFS) of the sticky threads in Wandering Minds so how come it hasn't been made into a sticky? Is it because Operation Ostrich is manifesting itself everywhere and the pro-Brexit mods are just hoping it will just go away despite the news telling us about the fallout on a daily basis?

Just a thought. Rolling Eyes

965 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Sep 19 2018, 10:46

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
It hasn't been debate and discussion. It's been you and xmiles ranting about Armageddon.

No one else is that bothered. If Brexit is the worst thing in your life, you've got a great life.

966 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Sep 19 2018, 13:22

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Natasha Whittam wrote:It hasn't been debate and discussion. It's been you and xmiles ranting about Armageddon.

No one else is that bothered. If Brexit is the worst thing in your life, you've got a great life.
In an age where everyone who voted leave the EU is either changing their mind or trying to ignore or even suppress anything that casts doubt on the wisdom of that decision as the facts start to emerge - including former leaders of that bandwagon - it's important that we don't lose the opportunity to avoid completely effing up the country irreversibly. But to be fair to you, at least you've made some effort to make a token defence of the referendum, albeit being predominantly based on the price of Twirls.
Leave voters are divided because they realise that they aren't going to get what they wanted having assumed incorrectly that all the promises made were deliverable and realistic which is why they are now a minority.
As we march blindfold into a very uncertain future, I don't believe "not being that bothered" is an option, especially for the people like me who have children.
What we are all hoping to hear is some good news, but let's be honest - there hasn't been anything positive at all to come out of it and it is helluva cheeky to blame remainers for that, especially from someone who is now in a divided minority.

967 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Sep 19 2018, 14:15

Dunkels King

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Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
Oh how I laughed when I read this little gem today....

Migrants from the EU contribute £2,300 more to the exchequer each year in net terms than the average adult, the analysis for the government has found.





And, over their lifetimes, they pay in £78,000 more than they take out in public services and benefits - while the average UK citizen’s net lifetime contribution is zero.

Taken from:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-workers-uk-tax-treasury-brexit-migrants-british-citizens-a8542506.html

"Bloody Eastern Europeans taking our jobs and all our money" as a quoted by a load of xenophobic idiots all around the UK.

It's alright for childless people like Nat who is probably close to retirement anyway, but what about the next generation ? They are being royally stiffed. Not to mention the 1.3 Million British people (like myself) who are now treading water wondering what the hell will happen to us if we lose our jobs now whilst overseas as an example.

968 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Sep 19 2018, 14:37

okocha

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Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
What concerns me is that whenever there is the chance to "Have Your Say" on any Brexit article on the BBC website, the majority of Leave posters still doggedly stick to their guns, ignoring all common sense and warnings of the harm that is likely to materialise across a whole range of issues. Changing your mind in the face of evidence is not something to be ashamed of. The trouble is that we are not in a position to judge who is actually giving sound advice. There are so many issues to consider that one simple yes/no answer is impossible...which is why the original referendum created more questions than answers, and they have still not been resolved.

I've never understood why there has to be a party line on something that is so critical for the future of the country. Party politics and allegiance to Tory, Lab or Lib leaders shouldn't be an issue here.

If there were to be a final say on the terms of any "agreement". there should be a column for "How the hell am I supposed to know how things will turn out when our elected leaders are still understandably uncertain?" Honest answers would swamp such a column.

969 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Sep 19 2018, 15:24

Sluffy

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Admin
@wanderlust wrote:...and contentious as it is, this thread has generated more debate and discussion than all but one (the Joke thread FFS) of the sticky threads in Wandering Minds so how come it hasn't been made into a sticky? Is it because Operation Ostrich is manifesting itself everywhere and the pro-Brexit mods are just hoping it will just go away despite the news telling us about the fallout on a daily basis?

Just a thought. Rolling Eyes

Threads on here once they get to a certain amount of posts (something like 1090) are automatically split into a new thread by 'archiving' the first 990 posts and thus shortening the current active thread down to the last hundred posts or so.  I guess they do that for some technical reason or other to make the site run better.

So many threads - Bonces one for instance has received several thousand posts from it's start although if you looked on the current thread post count it will show considerably less than that.

Also the 'racing and football betting' thread currently has a total of 1064 posts in it - nearly a hundred more than this one and it isn't stickied either.

Ever get sick of being an obnoxiously self important, self opinionated 'know it all'?

Just a thought.

Rolling Eyes

970 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Sep 19 2018, 15:30

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Sluffy wrote:Ever get sick of being an obnoxiously self important, self opinionated 'know it all'?

Just a thought.

Rolling Eyes
:rofl:

971 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Sep 19 2018, 15:39

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@okocha wrote:
I've never understood why there has to be a party line on something that is so critical for the future of the country. Party politics and allegiance to Tory, Lab or Lib leaders shouldn't be an issue here.
Key point this. I suspect the answer is that the referendum showed poilticians of all parties how out of touch they re with sections of the communities they represent and that their number one priority is to try to gain/maintain control of power and are therefore prepared to jump on any bandwagon that is passing by to do it. Add to that the media's obsession that anyone who doesn't toe the party line on any single issue is labelled a "rebel" despite the fact that it is only logical that nobody is likely to agree with everything the party promotes. Use of the whip is becoming the norm rather than the exception.

972 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Sep 19 2018, 15:41

boltonbonce

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@wanderlust wrote:
@Sluffy wrote:Ever get sick of being an obnoxiously self important, self opinionated 'know it all'?

Just a thought.

Rolling Eyes
:rofl:
Razz

973 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Sep 19 2018, 17:30

Cajunboy

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Andy Walker
Andy Walker
:hijack:

974 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Sep 19 2018, 18:12

Sluffy

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Admin
@wanderlust wrote:
@okocha wrote:
I've never understood why there has to be a party line on something that is so critical for the future of the country. Party politics and allegiance to Tory, Lab or Lib leaders shouldn't be an issue here.
Key point this. I suspect the answer is that the referendum showed poilticians of all parties how out of touch they re with sections of the communities they represent and that their number one priority is to try to gain/maintain control of power and are therefore prepared to jump on any bandwagon that is passing by to do it. Add to that the media's obsession that anyone who doesn't toe the party line on any single issue is labelled a "rebel" despite the fact that it is only logical that nobody is likely to agree with everything the party promotes. Use of the whip is becoming the norm rather than the exception.

I thought the point was that the vast amount of Parliamentary constituencies throughout the country voted Leave and that is the mandate that the main political parties who govern our country are working to.

Obviously those not working to it can fairly be categorised as 'rebelling'.

Until the mandate changes then it is right and proper to seek Brexit.

The mandate is just over two years old, so is clearly in political terms considered current, for instance MP's and MEP's are elected for five year terms, before they are put to the next public vote.

Fwiw I believe there's been a significant change in the mood of the country regarding Brexit and I would support a second referendum on whether we agree to the final terms negotiated for Brexit or whether we would now rather remain but to suggest that the government and the main opposition party should 'rebel' against implementing Brexit based on the mandate issued to it from the country shows a total ignorance as to how this country is governed in terms of both law and custom.

975 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Sep 19 2018, 18:15

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@boltonbonce wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:
@Sluffy wrote:Ever get sick of being an obnoxiously self important, self opinionated 'know it all'?

Just a thought.

Rolling Eyes
:rofl:
Razz

Laughing

976 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Sep 20 2018, 08:55

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
@Sluffy wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:
@okocha wrote:
I've never understood why there has to be a party line on something that is so critical for the future of the country. Party politics and allegiance to Tory, Lab or Lib leaders shouldn't be an issue here.
Key point this. I suspect the answer is that the referendum showed poilticians of all parties how out of touch they re with sections of the communities they represent and that their number one priority is to try to gain/maintain control of power and are therefore prepared to jump on any bandwagon that is passing by to do it. Add to that the media's obsession that anyone who doesn't toe the party line on any single issue is labelled a "rebel" despite the fact that it is only logical that nobody is likely to agree with everything the party promotes. Use of the whip is becoming the norm rather than the exception.

I thought the point was that the vast amount of Parliamentary constituencies throughout the country voted Leave and that is the mandate that the main political parties who govern our country are working to.

Obviously those not working to it can fairly be categorised as 'rebelling'.

Until the mandate changes then it is right and proper to seek Brexit.

The mandate is just over two years old, so is clearly in political terms considered current, for instance MP's and MEP's are elected for five year terms, before they are put to the next public vote.

Fwiw I believe there's been a significant change in the mood of the country regarding Brexit and I would support a second referendum on whether we agree to the final terms negotiated for Brexit or whether we would now rather remain but to suggest that the government and the main opposition party should 'rebel' against implementing Brexit based on the mandate issued to it from the country shows a total ignorance as to how this country is governed in terms of both law and custom.

MPs are not bound by how their constituencies voted on brexit. It was a referendum which was meant to advise parliament but in no sense does it bind the MPs to vote the way their constituents voted.

MPs often ignore what their constituents want. The most obvious example would be the free votes held in the past on the death penalty.

For what it's worth I support a second referendum (no surprise) partly because I think too many people are under the mistaken belief that if brexit is as bad as I expect it to be that we can simply rejoin the EU. We could only rejoin on far worse terms (no rebate, adopt the Euro, etc) and people really need to know that this is not an easy option.

977 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Sep 20 2018, 09:01

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
I’d also support a referendum on the final deal, but mainly because of the lack of information provided as to what a leave deal would look like at the time of the vote. To the point where leaving the single market (which was never on the table) now looks a certainty.

The whole notion of ‘we voted leave, so leave’ is an over simplification, it’s far more complex than that and what one group would say is leaving another says is not.

Clarify what it means then let the people decide.

978 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Sep 20 2018, 10:51

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@T.R.O.Y wrote:I’d also support a referendum on the final deal, but mainly because of the lack of information provided as to what a leave deal would look like at the time of the vote. To the point where leaving the single market (which was never on the table) now looks a certainty.

The whole notion of ‘we voted leave, so leave’ is an over simplification, it’s far more complex than that and what one group would say is leaving another says is not.

Clarify what it means then let the people decide.
Perhaps they should have clarified what it means before the referendum and then we wouldn't have to worry about our kid's future?

979 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Sep 20 2018, 11:19

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@wanderlust wrote:Perhaps they should have clarified what it means before the referendum and then we wouldn't have to worry about our kid's future?

You really do lay it on thick. You do know there are countries out there not in the EU don't you?

I'm sure your kids will just get on with things as most people will, I guarantee you that it won't define their lives.

980 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Sep 20 2018, 13:34

Sluffy

avatar
Admin
@xmiles wrote:MPs are not bound by how their constituencies voted on brexit. It was a referendum which was meant to advise parliament but in no sense does it bind the MPs to vote the way their constituents voted.

MPs often ignore what their constituents want. The most obvious example would be the free votes held in the past on the death penalty.

You are correct in what you say but there clearly was an overwhelming Brexit vote in the Parliamentary constituencies of all political persuasions that it was clear what the country wanted, even though the actual overall total vote was quite close in itself.

Most MP's do wish to represent their constituents want even if it conflicts with there own personal views and I dare say if a referendum was taken on the death penalty and the country expressed its wishes accordingly, prior to the MP's free vote, then it wouldn't have been repealed at that time.

We are where we are for two simple reasons in my opinion, firstly because Cameron called an unnecessary referendum in the first place (he thought he would win it easily and shut up once and for all the Eurosceptics in his party) and secondly because Corbyn was so luke warm on rallying the Labour Party to fight for Remain which is basically an organisation that expounds and represents the ethos of socialism.

981 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Sep 20 2018, 14:18

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Natasha Whittam wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:Perhaps they should have clarified what it means before the referendum and then we wouldn't have to worry about our kid's future?

You really do lay it on thick. You do know there are countries out there not in the EU don't you?

I'm sure your kids will just get on with things as most people will, I guarantee you that it won't define their lives.
There sure are countries outside the EU but the economically successful ones i.e. Russia, USA, China and the Arab States etc all have massive natural resources to exploit that we don't and/or trading agreements with key partners like the one we're about to give up.

And your personal guarantee that it won't define my kids' lives means diddly squat.

982 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Sep 20 2018, 14:22

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@wanderlust wrote:And your personal guarantee that it won't define my kids' lives means diddly squat.

If your kids do let it define them, they'll have you to blame.

I still don't understand why you feel the need to keep banging the same tune on a football forum. If you really feel that strongly, go and do something positive to make change.

I'm guessing though, you're all bark and no bite, like most keyboard warriors.

983 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Sep 20 2018, 14:32

wanderlust

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Sluffy wrote:
@xmiles wrote:MPs are not bound by how their constituencies voted on brexit. It was a referendum which was meant to advise parliament but in no sense does it bind the MPs to vote the way their constituents voted.

MPs often ignore what their constituents want. The most obvious example would be the free votes held in the past on the death penalty.

You are correct in what you say but there clearly was an overwhelming Brexit vote in the Parliamentary constituencies of all political persuasions that it was clear what the country wanted, even though the actual overall total vote was quite close in itself.
30% of Tory constituencies, 40% of Labour constituencies and 100% of the minority party constituencies (apart from 2 LD) voted to Remain at the original referendum so it's clear that if these MPs wanted to represent their electorate they would and should decline the party Whip.
Moreover, Augusts independent poll showed that 113 constituencies that originally voted Leave have now switched to Remain so what's the story with those MPs? Shouldn't they also decline the party Whip?

Well yes they should because they are clearly putting party politics ahead of the wishes of the people that elected them.

984 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Sep 20 2018, 15:06

Sluffy

avatar
Admin
@wanderlust wrote:
@Sluffy wrote:
@xmiles wrote:MPs are not bound by how their constituencies voted on brexit. It was a referendum which was meant to advise parliament but in no sense does it bind the MPs to vote the way their constituents voted.

MPs often ignore what their constituents want. The most obvious example would be the free votes held in the past on the death penalty.

You are correct in what you say but there clearly was an overwhelming Brexit vote in the Parliamentary constituencies of all political persuasions that it was clear what the country wanted, even though the actual overall total vote was quite close in itself.
30% of Tory constituencies, 40% of Labour constituencies and 100% of the minority party constituencies (apart from 2 LD) voted to Remain at the original referendum so it's clear that if these MPs wanted to represent their electorate they would and should decline the party Whip.
Moreover, Augusts independent poll showed that 113 constituencies that originally voted Leave have now switched to Remain so what's the story with those MPs? Shouldn't they also decline the party Whip?

Well yes they should because they are clearly putting party politics ahead of the wishes of the people that elected them.

So taken your percentages as stated that leaves 70% of Conservative and 60% of Labour constituencies voted for Brexit.

In the 2015 General election Conservatives won 330 seats (or 231 for Brexit) and Labour (or 139 for Brexit)

As there are 650 seats in Parliament that totals (including the two Lib Dem seats you mention voted for Brexit) 372 seats for Brexit and only 278 for Remain or roughly 57% to 43% in favour for Brexit.

A clear and unequivocal mandate from the country.

As for poll predictions, they have been notoriously wrong in recent years - not least in predicting the outcome of the referendum!

The only known mandate MP's have is how their constituents actually voted when they did.

The only way to gauge the final right of leaving the EU is by putting the final result of the country's negotiation to leave again to the country to vote on.

That's what I'd try to make happen if I were an elected MP of any party and whether I supported Brexit or not.

985 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Sep 20 2018, 16:37

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@wanderlust wrote:
@T.R.O.Y wrote:I’d also support a referendum on the final deal, but mainly because of the lack of information provided as to what a leave deal would look like at the time of the vote. To the point where leaving the single market (which was never on the table) now looks a certainty.

The whole notion of ‘we voted leave, so leave’ is an over simplification, it’s far more complex than that and what one group would say is leaving another says is not.

Clarify what it means then let the people decide.
Perhaps they should have clarified what it means before the referendum and then we wouldn't have to worry about our kid's future?

Well yes they should have, but clearly they didn’t need to. Because by leaving it undefined Brexit could be absolutely anything to anybody.

Unfortunately the government aren’t able to define it without pissing off a significant number of people - it’s that weak leadership that will cost us.

986 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Sep 20 2018, 16:50

xmiles

avatar
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
@Sluffy wrote:
@xmiles wrote:MPs are not bound by how their constituencies voted on brexit. It was a referendum which was meant to advise parliament but in no sense does it bind the MPs to vote the way their constituents voted.

MPs often ignore what their constituents want. The most obvious example would be the free votes held in the past on the death penalty.

You are correct in what you say but there clearly was an overwhelming Brexit vote in the Parliamentary constituencies of all political persuasions that it was clear what the country wanted, even though the actual overall total vote was quite close in itself.

Most MP's do wish to represent their constituents want even if it conflicts with there own personal views and I dare say if a referendum was taken on the death penalty and the country expressed its wishes accordingly, prior to the MP's free vote, then it wouldn't have been repealed at that time.

We are where we are for two simple reasons in my opinion, firstly because Cameron called an unnecessary referendum in the first place (he thought he would win it easily and shut up once and for all the Eurosceptics in his party) and secondly because Corbyn was so luke warm on rallying the Labour Party to fight for Remain which is basically an organisation that expounds and represents the ethos of socialism.

I agree with you about Cameron and Corbyn but would add one other significant reason. The EU has always been presented in a negative light by the right wing press with its obsession with made up stories about banning bendy bananas. When Cameron ran his project fear campaign there was very little about the positives of EU membership and this allowed the brexit campaign to frame the debate in purely negative terms (they even lied about Turkey joining the EU and us having no veto).

The bottom line for me was that if Farage, Boris, UKIP, Trump and Putin thought it was a good thing then it definitely wasn't!

987 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Sep 20 2018, 17:32

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Remain represents the ethos of socialism?

988 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Sep 20 2018, 17:49

Cajunboy

avatar
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@T.R.O.Y wrote:Remain represents the ethos of socialism?


Corbyn wouldn't agree, going off his past voting record on the EU.

989 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Sep 20 2018, 17:54

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
I don’t think anybody who can define socialism would agree.

990 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Sep 21 2018, 09:27

wanderlust

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Sluffy wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:
@Sluffy wrote:
@xmiles wrote:MPs are not bound by how their constituencies voted on brexit. It was a referendum which was meant to advise parliament but in no sense does it bind the MPs to vote the way their constituents voted.

MPs often ignore what their constituents want. The most obvious example would be the free votes held in the past on the death penalty.

You are correct in what you say but there clearly was an overwhelming Brexit vote in the Parliamentary constituencies of all political persuasions that it was clear what the country wanted, even though the actual overall total vote was quite close in itself.
30% of Tory constituencies, 40% of Labour constituencies and 100% of the minority party constituencies (apart from 2 LD) voted to Remain at the original referendum so it's clear that if these MPs wanted to represent their electorate they would and should decline the party Whip.
Moreover, Augusts independent poll showed that 113 constituencies that originally voted Leave have now switched to Remain so what's the story with those MPs? Shouldn't they also decline the party Whip?

Well yes they should because they are clearly putting party politics ahead of the wishes of the people that elected them.

So taken your percentages as stated that leaves 70% of Conservative and 60% of Labour constituencies voted for Brexit.

In the 2015 General election Conservatives won 330 seats (or 231 for Brexit) and Labour (or 139 for Brexit)

As there are 650 seats in Parliament that totals (including the two Lib Dem seats you mention voted for Brexit) 372 seats for Brexit and only 278 for Remain or roughly 57% to 43% in favour for Brexit.

A clear and unequivocal mandate from the country.

As for poll predictions, they have been notoriously wrong in recent years - not least in predicting the outcome of the referendum!

The only known mandate MP's have is how their constituents actually voted when they did.

The only way to gauge the final right of leaving the EU is by putting the final result of the country's negotiation to leave again to the country to vote on.

That's what I'd try to make happen if I were an elected MP of any party and whether I supported Brexit or not.


Not sure about your logic here when the point was about whether or not MPs should represent the wishes of their constituents or be told by their party that they should go against what their constituents have asked them to do.
Even with your dodgy figures it means that 278 MPs defied the wishes of their constituents and if the polls are accurate, or even if they are 10% out - which is highly unusual as the average error margin is 2% - it means that currently the majority of MPs in this country are going along with Brexit against the wishes of their constituents.

Are you are arguing that opinion polls have been notoriously wrong in recent years and yet the EU membership opinion poll was unquestionably right?  

The passing of time is an interesting factor too. The parties are insisting on carrying through the views expressed in an opinion poll that took place two years ago but times have changed so why the fixation with pushing through a marginal historical opinion poll?

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