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"Coolest monkey in the jungle!"

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31 Re: "Coolest monkey in the jungle!" on Wed Jan 10 2018, 22:37

Reebok Trotter

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
T.R.O.Y wrote:
Reebok Trotter wrote:
T.R.O.Y wrote:
Leeds_Trotter wrote:Is the advert used in a derogatory way towards any race[size=30]? Does the advert incite hate towards any race? The answer to both those questions is no it doesn't. People should stop being snowflakes, no way does this advert discriminate against any race. It's all been blown out of proportion by the far left. Even I as a Labour voter think it's a complete joke to be offended by this. There was no malicious intent from the company. If it is racist like people claim, then why did the parents not say this before allowing the photo to be used? This country is begging to have too many soft arses who get upset over nothing. God help us if the country ever went to war and conscription was brought back. We'd be doomed with an army full of soft arses.[/size]

I think it was more likely sheer stupidity than racism from H&M, but guess what black people find the word monkey offensive and are sensitive to it's use - maybe something to do with centuries of persecution. So if that's a fucking surprise to you then please don't go anywhere near the army either, we don't need anymore idiots running around with guns.

So answer my question, what qualifies you to decide what black people find offensive?

How do you know this? Are you a spokesman for black people? It's alright shooting from the hip and claiming the moral high ground but what qualifies you to question the opinion of another poster just because he lives in Leeds? I'll pose the same question to you TROY. What qualifies YOU to decide what black people find offensive? The ball is in your court.

Thanks for putting the ball in my court. I know it’s caused offence because it’s in the press for that exact reason. 

I don’t find it offensive, but as far as I’m concerned it’s not up to white people to decide what black people find offensive.

I'll put it in simple terms! You CANNOT have a white spokesman in a black context. Where are all these black people complaining about the H & M advert? It's the likes of you who cause the problem harping back to the bad old days of slavery and taking up the mantle on their behalf. As if you lived through those turbulent times!
I don't know you but going off your posts you strike me as someone who is quick to have a go at LT as if you are somehow superior but I suspect if we were to scratch beneath the surface there would be bugger all evidence of your contributions to minority causes. All wind and piss with no substance. We have all heard ducks break wind underwater and you are no different.

32 Re: "Coolest monkey in the jungle!" on Wed Jan 10 2018, 22:44

T.R.O.Y


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Invent whatever nonsense you like about me, dream up a fantasy that makes you feel as if you are morally superior - I’m not interested in your right wing, Daily Mail fueled small minded shit. You clearly think there’s only one type of person that wouldn’t understand your viewpoint.

I am no spokesman, but can’t believe you need proof of why this is in the press. Google the Weeknd if you don’t believe black people are offended by this.

33 Re: "Coolest monkey in the jungle!" on Wed Jan 10 2018, 22:45

T.R.O.Y


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Leeds_Trotter wrote:
T.R.O.Y wrote:
Reebok Trotter wrote:
T.R.O.Y wrote:
Leeds_Trotter wrote:Is the advert used in a derogatory way towards any race[size=30]? Does the advert incite hate towards any race? The answer to both those questions is no it doesn't. People should stop being snowflakes, no way does this advert discriminate against any race. It's all been blown out of proportion by the far left. Even I as a Labour voter think it's a complete joke to be offended by this. There was no malicious intent from the company. If it is racist like people claim, then why did the parents not say this before allowing the photo to be used? This country is begging to have too many soft arses who get upset over nothing. God help us if the country ever went to war and conscription was brought back. We'd be doomed with an army full of soft arses.[/size]

I think it was more likely sheer stupidity than racism from H&M, but guess what black people find the word monkey offensive and are sensitive to it's use - maybe something to do with centuries of persecution. So if that's a fucking surprise to you then please don't go anywhere near the army either, we don't need anymore idiots running around with guns.

So answer my question, what qualifies you to decide what black people find offensive?

How do you know this? Are you a spokesman for black people? It's alright shooting from the hip and claiming the moral high ground but what qualifies you to question the opinion of another poster just because he lives in Leeds? I'll pose the same question to you TROY. What qualifies YOU to decide what black people find offensive? The ball is in your court.

Thanks for putting the ball in my court. I know it’s caused offence because it’s in the press for that exact reason. 

I don’t find it offensive, but as far as I’m concerned it’s not up to white people to decide what black people find offensive.
Can you imagine a world where we are all that pathetic? People should starting using their brain and work out when people are and are not being offensive.

Not everyone thinks like you, is offended by the same things and feels the same way. History and persecution have an affect it’s as simple as that.

34 Re: "Coolest monkey in the jungle!" on Wed Jan 10 2018, 22:55

Reebok Trotter

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
T.R.O.Y wrote:Invent whatever nonsense you like about me, dream up a fantasy that makes you feel as if you are morally superior - I’m not interested in your right wing, Daily Mail fueled small minded shit. You clearly think there’s only one type of person that wouldn’t understand your viewpoint.

I am no spokesman, but can’t believe you need proof of why this is in the press. Google the Weeknd if you don’t believe black people are offended by this.

I am not inventing anything. I am simply pointing out that you know fuck all about the grievances of black people and any perceived slight that you have taken up on their behalf is purely that. My viewpoint is my own. Leeds Trotter made a valid post and you chose to respond with your viewpoint and included me in your comment. Personally, I don't have a problem with your point of view. It's your opinion and you are entitled to it. As is Leeds Trotter. Nobodies viewpoint is superior.All opinions are of equal merit.

35 Re: "Coolest monkey in the jungle!" on Wed Jan 10 2018, 23:06

T.R.O.Y


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
You’ve decided that because you don’t find something offensive, nobody else has the right to. 

I know as much about the grievances of black people as you do, all I’m saying is they’re better placed to decide what is crossing a line than you are. You claim not to have an issue with that; yet have spent the entire thread trying to suggest I’m a black spokesman, when I’ve claimed nothing of the sort.

My point has been consistent throughout, you’re projecting a persona which you have come across in society onto me. I have not represented those views at any point on this thread.

36 Re: "Coolest monkey in the jungle!" on Wed Jan 10 2018, 23:12

Natasha Whittam

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
RT, you've made yourself look a right knob.



37 Re: "Coolest monkey in the jungle!" on Wed Jan 10 2018, 23:23

Reebok Trotter

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Natasha Whittam wrote:RT, you've made yourself look a right knob.




Oh Lord! Grant me the  mercy to forgive those that are so blind that they will not see. I'm quite happy to be a knob. I was born a knob so why should I be a saint? 

I'm happy to stand by my comments safe in the knowledge that I don't give a shit what other folk think. It's my opinion and nobody else's. 

If you agree with TROY then good for you. It's a free world. Thought is food for all mankind, for it has no owners.

38 Re: "Coolest monkey in the jungle!" on Wed Jan 10 2018, 23:27

Angry Dad

avatar
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Nothing wrong with it, it's a good ad but it was always going to wind up the the self appointed offence takers. Get a fucking life you wankers.

39 Re: "Coolest monkey in the jungle!" on Wed Jan 10 2018, 23:59

karlypants

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Angry Dad wrote:Nothing wrong with it, it's a good ad but it was always going to wind up the the self appointed offence takers. Get a fucking life you wankers.
:clap: Very Happy

40 Re: "Coolest monkey in the jungle!" on Thu Jan 11 2018, 07:35

T.R.O.Y


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Jesus, climb out Karly.

41 Re: "Coolest monkey in the jungle!" on Thu Jan 11 2018, 08:57

Keegan

avatar
Moderator
Moderator
Hi guys. As the "Token Black" allow me to give my point of view on this topic. The United States has enjoyed a position of prominence in the field of racism for many years. It was legal to hunt Negroes (not exactly what it said on the license) at one point,  and in some States negro babies were used as alligator bait. They were routinely referred to as monkeys and apes. In fact, that is how the Monkey Wrench got its name, being invented by a Negro. Years of progress led to racism being submerged significantly, but the current administration made it popular again, due in part to the current leader's Dad being involved in the most notorious racist organisation in the US. 

Look up David Duke and his tweets telling the President to remember who put him in office. It is common knowledge that in Spain, Italy and Russia in particular, black players are oftentimes called monkeys/apes and have bananas thrown at them - even by their own supporters. With this in mind, using a young black child to model a shirt that says the wearer is a monkey, is insensitive at the very least, and in poor taste. 

A Caucasian child wearing that shirt would have raised no eyebrows but with racial tensions as they are in the US, it must have been intentional, because big companies tend to have teams that look into potential PR issues.

Finally, the mother of the child in question has come out in support of the company, saying it was never their intention to be racist and that she had no issue with it. The child is hers and has the right to decide what modelling huh A he does, but she does not own the feelings of all black people. I believe the company (that is, whoever was responsible for approving the Ad campaign) is either racist or deliberately toyed with racism to cause controversy and raise their public awareness. Neither is acceptable in a racially charged climate such as this. I won't be discussing the use of the "N word" because it wasnt used in the campaign and I understand the challenges involved in explaining its use among black people.

http://forum.boltonnuts.co.uk

42 Re: "Coolest monkey in the jungle!" on Thu Jan 11 2018, 09:14

Norpig

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
For what it's worth i don't think H&M are racists but someone must have seen this prior to it going online and someone should have thought hang on this is going to cause an issue.

43 Re: "Coolest monkey in the jungle!" on Thu Jan 11 2018, 12:36

Reebok Trotter

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
This was featured on Sky News a couple of days ago. The odious Kay Burley was interviewing a black journalist about it, and he made the valid point that, whilst it might have been misguided, on the part of H & M, it wasn´t racist per se, in his opinion. He also pointed out that the parents of the child appear not to have had a problem with their son modelling it. Was this good enough for Ms Burley? No, she insisted that it was racist and then said that even H & M had admitted it was. THEY HADN´T, but they did admit they had "got it wrong" and the article was withdrawn from sale. Said black journalist pointed out that many people refer to their children as cheeky monkeys and he asked Burley why it was racist. All she could come up with was "Oh, come on, most people would think it was racist!". The mother has since said that people should get over it. She is apparently a Kenyan living in Sweden and of course H & M is a Swedish brand. I think the point is that only in the UK would there be a furore, as the PC brigade and thought police have a vested interest in seeing racism (or any other ism) at every turn. In Spain they celebrate the 6th January as the  Dia del Reyes , which to the Spanish is like our Christmas Day. They have a parade, featuring the Three Kings. Several white Spanish males are blacked up in full regal costumes, running through the crowd and handing out sweets to people. Because of all the diversity issues I am sure that this would be entirely verboten in the UK. Then I thought, is anyone here up in arms? Is anyone offended - never mind black people, but white people being offended on their behalf? Ms Burley would no doubt be angry with any black Spaniards who were not offended and did not see blacked up white people as racist (as she was with her guest), but I come back to the point that it is only in the UK where one encounters this phenomenon. Why? I have my own theory on this but I´ll keep my powder dry for now.

44 Re: "Coolest monkey in the jungle!" on Thu Jan 11 2018, 12:39

Reebok Trotter

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/get-over-it-says-mother-of-boy-in-row-over-racist-handm-hoodie/ar-BBIeXbY?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=mailsignout


This also shows that the black mother is not being allowed to not be offended. The PC fascists are all over her like a rash.

45 Re: "Coolest monkey in the jungle!" on Thu Jan 11 2018, 13:53

boltonbonce

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I don't find it offensive.
However I,unlike my black school mate,didnt grow up being constantly compared to a monkey,taunted with bananas,and asked,ad nauseam,if I was related to King Kong.

46 Re: "Coolest monkey in the jungle!" on Thu Jan 11 2018, 14:26

wanderlust

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Keegan wrote:Hi guys. As the "Token Black" allow me to give my point of view on this topic. The United States has enjoyed a position of prominence in the field of racism for many years. It was legal to hunt Negroes (not exactly what it said on the license) at one point,  and in some States negro babies were used as alligator bait. They were routinely referred to as monkeys and apes. In fact, that is how the Monkey Wrench got its name, being invented by a Negro. Years of progress led to racism being submerged significantly, but the current administration made it popular again, due in part to the current leader's Dad being involved in the most notorious racist organisation in the US. 

Look up David Duke and his tweets telling the President to remember who put him in office. It is common knowledge that in Spain, Italy and Russia in particular, black players are oftentimes called monkeys/apes and have bananas thrown at them - even by their own supporters. With this in mind, using a young black child to model a shirt that says the wearer is a monkey, is insensitive at the very least, and in poor taste. 

A Caucasian child wearing that shirt would have raised no eyebrows but with racial tensions as they are in the US, it must have been intentional, because big companies tend to have teams that look into potential PR issues.

Finally, the mother of the child in question has come out in support of the company, saying it was never their intention to be racist and that she had no issue with it. The child is hers and has the right to decide what modelling huh A he does, but she does not own the feelings of all black people. I believe the company (that is, whoever was responsible for approving the Ad campaign) is either racist or deliberately toyed with racism to cause controversy and raise their public awareness. Neither is acceptable in a racially charged climate such as this. I won't be discussing the use of the "N word" because it wasnt used in the campaign and I understand the challenges involved in explaining its use among black people.
Correct me if I'm wrong Keegs, but what is considered offensive varies from culture to culture, person to person, who is saying it and also varies over time doesn't it? 

Question I have for you is, are there things that your friends and relatives might call you that isn't offensive because it comes from them, but would be if it came from someone else? In Greece for example, "bastard" is a term of endearment, but only from the right people in the right circumstances, similar to the use of the N word in old school rap music.

To that end, is it not the case that the real definition of a racist comment should NOT be based on the actual comment/word itself but rather on the context and intention of the person saying it? 

I think that's why "politically correct linguistics" are such a minefield to get sorted because when we get down to analysing a person or newspapers "intentions" we almost always enter the very same world of stereotyping and assumption.

On that basis I don't think the problem will ever go away, but at least recognising that some things will offend some people some of the time in some circumstances might eventually ameliorate the issue of insensitive marketing.

47 Re: "Coolest monkey in the jungle!" on Thu Jan 11 2018, 14:42

gloswhite

avatar
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
boltonbonce wrote:I don't find it offensive.
However I,unlike my black school mate,didnt grow up being constantly compared to a monkey,taunted with bananas,and asked,ad nauseam,if I was related to King Kong.
For many years I've had people comment on my Welsh nationality, , sheep shaggers, the rhyme Taffy was a Welshman, Taffy was a thief', etc. add to that my lack of height, (5'4"), and its made me a target of abuse most of my life. Have I ever expected the likes of Kay Burley, and the do-gooders in the nation, to stand up for me? No, I haven't. Instead I've taken it in good humour, mostly, but is the abuse the same as that given to many black people. Not necessarily, even though there's been a history of it, but its almost on a par, depending on how sensitive I am. 

I think Wanders comment is spot on.

48 Re: "Coolest monkey in the jungle!" on Thu Jan 11 2018, 15:27

boltonbonce

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

49 Re: "Coolest monkey in the jungle!" on Thu Jan 11 2018, 15:48

T.R.O.Y


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
boltonbonce wrote:I don't find it offensive.
However I,unlike my black school mate,didnt grow up being constantly compared to a monkey,taunted with bananas,and asked,ad nauseam,if I was related to King Kong.

Agree with you Bonce, if you’ve suffered racial abuse you are more likely to be sensitive to events like this.

50 Re: "Coolest monkey in the jungle!" on Thu Jan 11 2018, 16:47

Reebok Trotter

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
wanderlust wrote:
Keegan wrote:Hi guys. As the "Token Black" allow me to give my point of view on this topic. The United States has enjoyed a position of prominence in the field of racism for many years. It was legal to hunt Negroes (not exactly what it said on the license) at one point,  and in some States negro babies were used as alligator bait. They were routinely referred to as monkeys and apes. In fact, that is how the Monkey Wrench got its name, being invented by a Negro. Years of progress led to racism being submerged significantly, but the current administration made it popular again, due in part to the current leader's Dad being involved in the most notorious racist organisation in the US. 

Look up David Duke and his tweets telling the President to remember who put him in office. It is common knowledge that in Spain, Italy and Russia in particular, black players are oftentimes called monkeys/apes and have bananas thrown at them - even by their own supporters. With this in mind, using a young black child to model a shirt that says the wearer is a monkey, is insensitive at the very least, and in poor taste. 

A Caucasian child wearing that shirt would have raised no eyebrows but with racial tensions as they are in the US, it must have been intentional, because big companies tend to have teams that look into potential PR issues.

Finally, the mother of the child in question has come out in support of the company, saying it was never their intention to be racist and that she had no issue with it. The child is hers and has the right to decide what modelling huh A he does, but she does not own the feelings of all black people. I believe the company (that is, whoever was responsible for approving the Ad campaign) is either racist or deliberately toyed with racism to cause controversy and raise their public awareness. Neither is acceptable in a racially charged climate such as this. I won't be discussing the use of the "N word" because it wasnt used in the campaign and I understand the challenges involved in explaining its use among black people.
Correct me if I'm wrong Keegs, but what is considered offensive varies from culture to culture, person to person, who is saying it and also varies over time doesn't it? 

Question I have for you is, are there things that your friends and relatives might call you that isn't offensive because it comes from them, but would be if it came from someone else? In Greece for example, "bastard" is a term of endearment, but only from the right people in the right circumstances, similar to the use of the N word in old school rap music.

To that end, is it not the case that the real definition of a racist comment should NOT be based on the actual comment/word itself but rather on the context and intention of the person saying it? 

I think that's why "politically correct linguistics" are such a minefield to get sorted because when we get down to analysing a person or newspapers "intentions" we almost always enter the very same world of stereotyping and assumption.

On that basis I don't think the problem will ever go away, but at least recognising that some things will offend some people some of the time in some circumstances might eventually ameliorate the issue of insensitive marketing.

:agree:

51 Re: "Coolest monkey in the jungle!" on Thu Jan 11 2018, 16:52

Reebok Trotter

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I'm pleased that Kev ( Keegan ) responded because he talks from experience. A few years ago we had a debate on here involving the N word and Kev explained his thought processes and viewpoint. What was amusing to me was that Kev had no problem with the term ' Jungle Bunny '. In fact, he said he actually quite liked the phrase. Now I wouldn't dream of calling anyone a jungle bunny but clearly different people from different backgrounds have different viewpoints and what someone finds offensive, others may not. This is a prime example. What I object to is those who take offence by proxy on behalf of someone else.

52 Re: "Coolest monkey in the jungle!" on Thu Jan 11 2018, 17:20

T.R.O.Y


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Agree with much of what you’ve written there RT.

53 Re: "Coolest monkey in the jungle!" on Thu Jan 11 2018, 17:34

Bwfc1958

avatar
Tinned Toms - You know it makes sense!
Regardless of whether it was intentionally racist or not, you have to question the wisdom of the marketing team on this one. It's blindingly obvious that some people would take offence to it, so just don't bother. Use a different advertisement and none of it ever happens, it's not rocket science.

Saying that though, what makes me think it could be intentional, is the fact that this is now a talking point everywhere. I would never have known about this ad had it not been for all the furore.

As they say, no publicity is bad publicity.

54 Re: "Coolest monkey in the jungle!" on Thu Jan 11 2018, 17:44

boltonbonce

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Many people find this sort of stuff offensive now. Times change.
I always found it funny.

55 Re: "Coolest monkey in the jungle!" on Thu Jan 11 2018, 18:37

Angry Dad

avatar
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Well maybe instead of deleting the ad they should have put a white kid on instead, I'd like to see what they made of that.

56 Re: "Coolest monkey in the jungle!" on Thu Jan 11 2018, 18:43

Angry Dad

avatar
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
boltonbonce wrote:Many people find this sort of stuff offensive now. Times change.
I always found it funny.
Loved this I wish it was shown on repeats probes my fav ever show

57 Re: "Coolest monkey in the jungle!" on Thu Jan 11 2018, 18:50

boltonbonce

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Angry Dad wrote:
boltonbonce wrote:Many people find this sort of stuff offensive now. Times change.
I always found it funny.
Loved this I wish it was shown on repeats probes my fav ever show
Great stuff.

58 Re: "Coolest monkey in the jungle!" on Thu Jan 11 2018, 19:35

Reebok Trotter

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
T.R.O.Y wrote:Agree with much of what you’ve written there RT.

I'm glad we can agree on something! Having revisited this post today I owe you an apology for some of my comments towards you last night. My anger on this subject should not have been directed towards you and having re-read your comments I feel I was a tad harsh. Happy to hold my hand up on this occasion.

59 Re: "Coolest monkey in the jungle!" on Fri Jan 12 2018, 03:27

DEANO82


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
If you find the hoodie racist (as a white person) doesn't that make you racist?

If you see the word monkey and then connect it to the colour of a persons skin, seems racist to me.

60 Re: "Coolest monkey in the jungle!" on Fri Jan 12 2018, 09:07

T.R.O.Y


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
I think the question is more, should people be offended by this than is the hoodie racist.

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