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Jon Venables

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31 Re: Jon Venables on Tue Feb 13 2018, 12:52

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Norpig wrote:Jesus Lusty i thought i was a liberal but that takes the biscuit!
I don't think it's "liberal" to accept that nurture plays just as much a part in children's personal development as nature does.

32 Re: Jon Venables on Tue Feb 13 2018, 13:02

boltonbonce

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Rehabilitation can work. Look at Mary Bell. There was a case in Norway a few years ago where the two killers were only six. It makes interesting reading.

https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2010/mar/20/norway-town-forgave-child-killers

33 Re: Jon Venables on Tue Feb 13 2018, 13:30

Sluffy

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Admin
wanderlust wrote:
Norpig wrote:Jesus Lusty i thought i was a liberal but that takes the biscuit!
I don't think it's "liberal" to accept that nurture plays just as much a part in children's personal development as nature does.

Nature and nurture combines to makes the person.

Sadly numerous children are mistreated.

The thing though is that it is relatively rare for 'children' no matter how abused to kill.

Even when fully grown into adults it is still statistically rare for them to murder children.

Clearly Venables subsequent behaviour as been such as to show that the many years of attempting to rehabilitate him as failed.

There is clear evil inside him - ie he's not wired up right - nurture may have made it worse but it certainly didn't cause it - otherwise there would be numerous cases of child killing by other children if that was the case.

34 Re: Jon Venables on Tue Feb 13 2018, 14:11

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Sluffy wrote:
wanderlust wrote:
Norpig wrote:Jesus Lusty i thought i was a liberal but that takes the biscuit!
I don't think it's "liberal" to accept that nurture plays just as much a part in children's personal development as nature does.

Nature and nurture combines to makes the person.

Sadly numerous children are mistreated.

The thing though is that it is relatively rare for 'children' no matter how abused to kill.

Even when fully grown into adults it is still statistically rare for them to murder children.

Clearly Venables subsequent behaviour as been such as to show that the many years of attempting to rehabilitate him as failed.

There is clear evil inside him - ie he's not wired up right - nurture may have made it worse but it certainly didn't cause it - otherwise there would be numerous cases of child killing by other children if that was the case.
Nearly 400 children have been convicted of murder in the last two decades - but none as young as Venables and Thompson and most of the victims were adults, often their parents.
It has always happened and 99% of the time it is kids who have been badly abused/neglected who perpetrate the crimes. Anyone else remember Mary Bell from the 60's? A 10 year old who murdered 2 younger kids in separate incidents. Classic case which eventually led to her rehabilitation, marriage and raising a family but primarily because she was treated as a psychiatric case rather than criminal.

35 Re: Jon Venables on Tue Feb 13 2018, 14:22

karlypants

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Didn't they both originally blame it on watching a horror film on TV?

36 Re: Jon Venables on Tue Feb 13 2018, 14:24

BoltonTillIDie

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John McGinlay
John McGinlay
Childs play 3

37 Re: Jon Venables on Tue Feb 13 2018, 14:29

Sluffy

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Admin
wanderlust wrote:
Sluffy wrote:
wanderlust wrote:
Norpig wrote:Jesus Lusty i thought i was a liberal but that takes the biscuit!
I don't think it's "liberal" to accept that nurture plays just as much a part in children's personal development as nature does.

Nature and nurture combines to makes the person.

Sadly numerous children are mistreated.

The thing though is that it is relatively rare for 'children' no matter how abused to kill.

Even when fully grown into adults it is still statistically rare for them to murder children.

Clearly Venables subsequent behaviour as been such as to show that the many years of attempting to rehabilitate him as failed.

There is clear evil inside him - ie he's not wired up right - nurture may have made it worse but it certainly didn't cause it - otherwise there would be numerous cases of child killing by other children if that was the case.

Nearly 400 children have been convicted of murder in the last two decades - but none as young as Venables and Thompson and most of the victims were adults, often their parents.
It has always happened and 99% of the time it is kids who have been badly abused/neglected who perpetrate the crimes. Anyone else remember Mary Bell from the 60's? A 10 year old who murdered 2 younger kids in separate incidents. Classic case which eventually led to her rehabilitation, marriage and raising a family but primarily because she was treated as a psychiatric case rather than criminal.

That equates to an average of just 20 deaths per year compared to an ocean of child abuse that occurred during that time. Statistically it proves beyond doubt that it is extremely rare for a child to kill another child no matter how abused they themselves might have been.

I dare say even of the 400 convicted of murder most would be 15/16/17 years olds convicted of knife crimes and not premediated in the way that Venables and Bell's crimes were.

Rehabilitation can work as in the case of Bell and Thompson but has clearly not in Venables case.






38 Re: Jon Venables on Tue Feb 13 2018, 14:37

karlypants

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
BoltonTillIDie wrote:Childs play 3
That was it. Smile

39 Re: Jon Venables on Tue Feb 13 2018, 21:17

RustyNail


Nicky Hunt
Nicky Hunt
Regarding the nature/nurture debate I definitely think there is case for both.

I worked with a woman who had worked a good few years at Ashworth high security hospital where Brady was kept. I was interested to know her professional opinion and asked if she thought some people were born evil. She said without hesitation a most definite yes.

Didn't the other lad have a perfectly reasonable upbringing?

40 Re: Jon Venables on Tue Feb 13 2018, 21:25

BoltonTillIDie

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John McGinlay
John McGinlay

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