How confident are you BWFC71 that we won't be affected by the FFP rules? Would you say, we really shouldn't be worrying?bwfc71 wrote:Culcheth_White wrote:So basically, our next set of accounts for 2013/14 have to show no more than a £8 million loss? Otherwise, we are going to be hit with the FFP rules, which could mean a transfer embargo and possible fines, depending on the size of the losses.
This would be quite a remarkable turnaround by the club, if we get anywhere near an £8 million loss, especially with the loss in revenue and we still have a higher annual wage bill than Swansea City who play in the Premiership.
Let's just hope Eddie & gartside know what they're doing!
The way I have read it is that the "club" (Bolton Wanderers Football & Athletic Company Limited - reg at coyshse:00043026)is a subsidiary of Burnden Leisure PLC(reg at coyshse:00335699) and as such also has its own set of accounts would be able to have a debt of up to £8million which would be very separate from any debt that the "Parent Company" (Burnden Leisure PLC) would have. But due to many agreements and facilities such as Cross Guarantees, Directors Guarantees etc etc etc any extra debt that the "club" would make above and beyond that £8million wwouldd be transferred to the debt on the "Parent Company".
Also, after viewing the Companies House, online, it has shown that Burnden Leisure has had 19 different lending facilities from various people and companies and that all but 3 have been satisfied - therefore (without being able to check due to Data Protection laws and taking a practical view) the current credit rating of the club and/or Parent Company is actually pretty high (i.e. good).
But as I say all the information, both yesterday lunchtime and this morning, that I have condensed into and made for better, and easier, reading that what it seems like are all in the accounts which can be read via PDF format from the club website!!!
Yes there are other variations to take into account but that would bore the readers who have no interest on how financial statements/accounts are created, but in general we are still in good shape and seem to be building a more solid base for the next set off accounts (end of year June 2014 - probably released next December).
Lets not forget that these set of results are up to the end of June 2013 9and not December as it was only publicly released in December) and as such the directors were aware of what the accounts were like over the summer and up to the closure of the summer transfer window, in September! Therefore it is business as usual!!!
Club debt rises to £163.8 million!!!
+23
wanderlust
xmiles
Banks of the Croal
scottjames30
rammywhite
observer
Soul Kitchen
Hipster_Nebula
terenceanne
NickFazer
karlypants
bwfc71
Natasha Whittam
BoltonTillIDie
aaron_bwfc
Copper Dragon
doffcocker
Jack Russell
Culcheth_White
Reebok Trotter
Norpig
Sluffy
Triumph
27 posters
91 Re: Club debt rises to £163.8 million!!! Wed Jan 01 2014, 10:55
Culcheth_White
Andy Walker
92 Re: Club debt rises to £163.8 million!!! Wed Jan 01 2014, 11:06
bwfc71
Ivan Campo
Culcheth_White wrote:How confident are you BWFC71 that we won't be affected by the FFP rules? Would you say, we really shouldn't be worrying?bwfc71 wrote:Culcheth_White wrote:So basically, our next set of accounts for 2013/14 have to show no more than a £8 million loss? Otherwise, we are going to be hit with the FFP rules, which could mean a transfer embargo and possible fines, depending on the size of the losses.
This would be quite a remarkable turnaround by the club, if we get anywhere near an £8 million loss, especially with the loss in revenue and we still have a higher annual wage bill than Swansea City who play in the Premiership.
Let's just hope Eddie & gartside know what they're doing!
The way I have read it is that the "club" (Bolton Wanderers Football & Athletic Company Limited - reg at coyshse:00043026)is a subsidiary of Burnden Leisure PLC(reg at coyshse:00335699) and as such also has its own set of accounts would be able to have a debt of up to £8million which would be very separate from any debt that the "Parent Company" (Burnden Leisure PLC) would have. But due to many agreements and facilities such as Cross Guarantees, Directors Guarantees etc etc etc any extra debt that the "club" would make above and beyond that £8million wwouldd be transferred to the debt on the "Parent Company".
Also, after viewing the Companies House, online, it has shown that Burnden Leisure has had 19 different lending facilities from various people and companies and that all but 3 have been satisfied - therefore (without being able to check due to Data Protection laws and taking a practical view) the current credit rating of the club and/or Parent Company is actually pretty high (i.e. good).
But as I say all the information, both yesterday lunchtime and this morning, that I have condensed into and made for better, and easier, reading that what it seems like are all in the accounts which can be read via PDF format from the club website!!!
Yes there are other variations to take into account but that would bore the readers who have no interest on how financial statements/accounts are created, but in general we are still in good shape and seem to be building a more solid base for the next set off accounts (end of year June 2014 - probably released next December).
Lets not forget that these set of results are up to the end of June 2013 9and not December as it was only publicly released in December) and as such the directors were aware of what the accounts were like over the summer and up to the closure of the summer transfer window, in September! Therefore it is business as usual!!!
To be fair I am slightly worried as FFP is primarily based upon "club" income and "club" outgoings which there is a difference of about £25-30 million in these accounts (up to end June 2013) and it is this bit that cannot be "manipulated" to become the debt of the "parent company" (but again there are many factors to take into account as its not as simple as income vs outgoing).
If anything information would be required from the quarterly and half-yearly accounts (which should be ready to read in the next 3 and 6 months) to see if we are going to be okay, or not, come the FFP rules.
93 Re: Club debt rises to £163.8 million!!! Wed Jan 01 2014, 11:07
Reebok Trotter
Nat Lofthouse
Who is Bolton's Director of Finance? Is it Magoo?
94 Re: Club debt rises to £163.8 million!!! Wed Jan 01 2014, 11:08
Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Reebok Trotter wrote:Who is Bolton's Director of Finance? Is it Magoo?
No, he's making the sandwiches.
95 Re: Club debt rises to £163.8 million!!! Wed Jan 01 2014, 11:15
doffcocker
Ivan Campo
I'm flattered by Banks' proposal.
Whittam, I'm the voice of many people on here. We often read words to the effect of spot on doffcocker, agree 100%, bravo doff. I can't remember the last time somebody gave that much credit to your work.
Whittam, I'm the voice of many people on here. We often read words to the effect of spot on doffcocker, agree 100%, bravo doff. I can't remember the last time somebody gave that much credit to your work.
96 Re: Club debt rises to £163.8 million!!! Wed Jan 01 2014, 11:18
Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
doffcocker wrote:I'm flattered by Banks' proposal.
You're flattered about being made my assistant? At least you know your place doffcocker.
Under me.
97 Re: Club debt rises to £163.8 million!!! Wed Jan 01 2014, 11:25
doffcocker
Ivan Campo
Natasha Whittam wrote:
At least you know your place doffcocker.
Under me.
I thought that was Nuggy's role.
98 Re: Club debt rises to £163.8 million!!! Wed Jan 01 2014, 11:37
Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
doffcocker wrote:
I thought that was Nuggy's role.
As you are an avid follower of my work you know full well we are no longer together. Having your fanny burnt off tends to cause friction in relationships.
99 Re: Club debt rises to £163.8 million!!! Wed Jan 01 2014, 12:16
rammywhite
Frank Worthington
This is going to be long and boring to some- but its about the clubs latest Accounts. I've been through them this morning with a fine tooth comb - and there are a lot of interesting things in there. Forgive me if this is a bit technical- but I'll make it as easy as I can.
I'll give you just a few:
1) It cost us £2.3 m to get rid of Coyle and his mates
2) It has cost us £2.7 m in wages to loan some of our players out
3 As regards whether we'll continue- the best evidence for me is that the auditor (Deloitte) makes no reference to any going concern issues at all in their auditors Report. They gave a clean report. Deloitte are no mugs (I worked for one of their competitors KPMG for years) - and they will have looked at this very carefully as its so easy to get sued if they get it wrong.
4) However the Directors go on at great length about the business as a 'going concern' in three places in the Accounts. They are clearly concerned and have drawn up serious looking contingency plans if we hit the cash flow skids
5)Gartside has seen his remuneration fall from over £800k to just over £400k. He's sharing our pain!!
6)There has to be a real issue about the FFP rules. A few years ago Portsmouth tried it on by separating loans between the football club and their holding company and the FA would have none of it. Look where they are now. Gartsides main tactic would be securitisation of season ticket sales- selling future receipts that we pay (probably for the next 5 years) to a finance company- and recognising much of the income now. Highly suspicious- Glasgow Rangers tried it- and look how much good it did them
7) Ownership of the club is really murky ( as BWFC71 correctly points out). Note 33 says its 95% owned by Fildraw- a Bermudan company. I've tried this morning to get data on them and failed- but I'll keep on trying.
However the loans are made by Moonshift which Eddy clearly owns ( with a beneficial interest- so there's something murky there). But Gartside says in the Directors Report that Eddy is the 'principal' shareholder in Burnden Leisure!!
I smell a rat here and I think we might still be in trouble. The accounts state that all plans are based on promotion in 13/14- so this season has already been written off by the Board.
I could go on with about 20 more significant points from the accounts but I suspect you're bored already.
But, talking professionally, there are a lot of things in the Accounts which are hair raising.
Unlike what happens on the pitch.
Lecture over- but I for one have concerns about the future
I'll give you just a few:
1) It cost us £2.3 m to get rid of Coyle and his mates
2) It has cost us £2.7 m in wages to loan some of our players out
3 As regards whether we'll continue- the best evidence for me is that the auditor (Deloitte) makes no reference to any going concern issues at all in their auditors Report. They gave a clean report. Deloitte are no mugs (I worked for one of their competitors KPMG for years) - and they will have looked at this very carefully as its so easy to get sued if they get it wrong.
4) However the Directors go on at great length about the business as a 'going concern' in three places in the Accounts. They are clearly concerned and have drawn up serious looking contingency plans if we hit the cash flow skids
5)Gartside has seen his remuneration fall from over £800k to just over £400k. He's sharing our pain!!
6)There has to be a real issue about the FFP rules. A few years ago Portsmouth tried it on by separating loans between the football club and their holding company and the FA would have none of it. Look where they are now. Gartsides main tactic would be securitisation of season ticket sales- selling future receipts that we pay (probably for the next 5 years) to a finance company- and recognising much of the income now. Highly suspicious- Glasgow Rangers tried it- and look how much good it did them
7) Ownership of the club is really murky ( as BWFC71 correctly points out). Note 33 says its 95% owned by Fildraw- a Bermudan company. I've tried this morning to get data on them and failed- but I'll keep on trying.
However the loans are made by Moonshift which Eddy clearly owns ( with a beneficial interest- so there's something murky there). But Gartside says in the Directors Report that Eddy is the 'principal' shareholder in Burnden Leisure!!
I smell a rat here and I think we might still be in trouble. The accounts state that all plans are based on promotion in 13/14- so this season has already been written off by the Board.
I could go on with about 20 more significant points from the accounts but I suspect you're bored already.
But, talking professionally, there are a lot of things in the Accounts which are hair raising.
Unlike what happens on the pitch.
Lecture over- but I for one have concerns about the future
100 Re: Club debt rises to £163.8 million!!! Wed Jan 01 2014, 12:33
xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Thanks Rammy for your analysis. Like you I am seriously worried about the possible impact of the FFP rules. To quote the BBC report:
"With Financial Fair Play if they continue to make the losses they have made this year they will fall foul of the new regulations. The regulations allow for about another £4-5m loss and this year they have made £50m."
And as for Owen, talk about a gift that keeps on giving. £2.3m just to get rid of the useless bastard! It couldn't have cost us more to get rid of him earlier, so why did Gartside not do it? Reluctance to admit he got it wrong is my guess.
"With Financial Fair Play if they continue to make the losses they have made this year they will fall foul of the new regulations. The regulations allow for about another £4-5m loss and this year they have made £50m."
And as for Owen, talk about a gift that keeps on giving. £2.3m just to get rid of the useless bastard! It couldn't have cost us more to get rid of him earlier, so why did Gartside not do it? Reluctance to admit he got it wrong is my guess.
101 Re: Club debt rises to £163.8 million!!! Wed Jan 01 2014, 12:46
Reebok Trotter
Nat Lofthouse
Interesting stuff Rammy. Thanks for the input. Not boring at all. If I were a betting man then my money would be on Uncle Eddie being the major shareholder in Fildraw.
102 Re: Club debt rises to £163.8 million!!! Wed Jan 01 2014, 12:54
rammywhite
Frank Worthington
Reebok Trotter wrote:Interesting stuff Rammy. Thanks for the input. Not boring at all. If I were a betting man then my money would be on Uncle Eddie being the major shareholder in Fildraw.
I'm 100% certain that he is- but it's Bermudan private company and getting stuff on it isn't easy
There's a Fildraw Road in the IoM and a company registered there called Fildraw Ltd- so its quite clearly an Eddy -owned corporation.
103 Re: Club debt rises to £163.8 million!!! Wed Jan 01 2014, 13:01
bwfc71
Ivan Campo
rammywhite wrote:Reebok Trotter wrote:Interesting stuff Rammy. Thanks for the input. Not boring at all. If I were a betting man then my money would be on Uncle Eddie being the major shareholder in Fildraw.
I'm 100% certain that he is- but it's Bermudan private company and getting stuff on it isn't easy
Tell me about it and everyone thought that Switzerland used to be bad for collating information!!!
104 Re: Club debt rises to £163.8 million!!! Wed Jan 01 2014, 13:29
Sluffy
Admin
Thank you Rammy - I'm sure most of us would love to read your other 20 more significant points though.
Also try googling Fildraw and the Virgin Islands.
Also try googling Fildraw and the Virgin Islands.
105 Re: Club debt rises to £163.8 million!!! Wed Jan 01 2014, 13:51
terenceanne
El Hadji Diouf
Banks of the Croal wrote:RIGHT, all this debt talk was really making me despair.
So this afternoon, while every fucker else was getting pissed.
I decided to prepare, a plan and a Cunning one at that.
All Nutters, those with the balls to execute this plan (Nat is also welcome) i really hope she will be involved, as she will have a major role to play, if all goes well.
I'm planning to storm The Reebok after the game against Blackpool, take it by surprise, not many people,fans, Police and hopefully Stewards about.
Then install a new Crack Management and Financial Team
Breadman... Chairman.
Natasha ... Manager.
Scott ... Assistant Manager.
Doffy ... Head Coach.
Angry Dad ... Fitness Coach and Head of Security.
Wander ... Public Liaison Manager.
RT... Deputy Public Liaison Manager
Karly ... Press Spokesman.
Magoo ... Catering Manager.
BWFC71 ... Transport Coordinator
Boltonbonce... New Announcer.
Culcheth White ... Head of Ticketing and Media.
Are you all behind me fellow nutters.
I want to be President .....so that I can fire all the above when it suits me.....thanks.
106 Re: Club debt rises to £163.8 million!!! Wed Jan 01 2014, 13:59
terenceanne
El Hadji Diouf
Hipster_Nebula wrote:The club can only be sold if someone wants to buy it (I'm sure i didn't need to say that)
And they will only do that if it's a viable business. And you can see from the "glory days" in the premier league and the UEFA where we lost millions that it's not. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
You can never put in place an American system into football, way too many teams, far too much variety (europe, asia, south america etc etc) no college/university system, no desire or need from above for a salary cap, will never ever ever happen. And losing is acceptable in the USA there are plenty of franchises that have been absolutely abysmal for many many many years.
Aye .... I said massive changes would not happen in my life time ...some of the reasons you list.
30 years from now though how could all the teams in division two and down possibly survive?
There are many franchises in the USA that have losing records on the field...but they don't lose money....the owners pocket that for the most part.
107 Re: Club debt rises to £163.8 million!!! Wed Jan 01 2014, 14:34
scottjames30
Nat Lofthouse
Banks of the Croal wrote:RIGHT, all this debt talk was really making me despair.
So this afternoon, while every fucker else was getting pissed.
I decided to prepare, a plan and a Cunning one at that.
All Nutters, those with the balls to execute this plan (Nat is also welcome) i really hope she will be involved, as she will have a major role to play, if all goes well.
I'm planning to storm The Reebok after the game against Blackpool, take it by surprise, not many people,fans, Police and hopefully Stewards about.
Then install a new Crack Management and Financial Team
Breadman... Chairman.
Natasha ... Manager.
Scott ... Assistant Manager.
Doffy ... Head Coach.
Angry Dad ... Fitness Coach and Head of Security.
Wander ... Public Liaison Manager.
RT... Deputy Public Liaison Manager
Karly ... Press Spokesman.
Magoo ... Catering Manager.
BWFC71 ... Transport Coordinator
Boltonbonce... New Announcer.
Culcheth White ... Head of Ticketing and Media.
Are you all behind me fellow nutters.
When Nat gets the sack in a couple of weeks, does this mean that I get to take over as Manager?
108 Re: Club debt rises to £163.8 million!!! Wed Jan 01 2014, 15:08
wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Well done Chris & Rammy et al for cutting through the smokescreen to get to the heart of the matter.
There are a few things that stand out as unusual, but overall it looks as though the club have intentionally laid out the accounts to maximise the paper loss.
Some serious investments there, the scale of which massively outweigh the impact of player cost and savings so a revised balance sheet would make interesting reading and perhaps put it into perspective.
Even so, Dougie still has plenty more work to do.
There are a few things that stand out as unusual, but overall it looks as though the club have intentionally laid out the accounts to maximise the paper loss.
Some serious investments there, the scale of which massively outweigh the impact of player cost and savings so a revised balance sheet would make interesting reading and perhaps put it into perspective.
Even so, Dougie still has plenty more work to do.
109 Re: Club debt rises to £163.8 million!!! Wed Jan 01 2014, 15:30
Soul Kitchen
Ivan Campo
WARRIOR = Wigan Athletic's Revenue Relies Immensely On RugbyBreadman wrote:That's it!
We need a rugby club to share the operating costs with us.
(And obviously Coyle's astute financial management of first team affairs would have helped them too....)
110 Re: Club debt rises to £163.8 million!!! Wed Jan 01 2014, 15:49
Guest
Guest
scottjames30 wrote:Banks of the Croal wrote:RIGHT, all this debt talk was really making me despair.
So this afternoon, while every fucker else was getting pissed.
I decided to prepare, a plan and a Cunning one at that.
All Nutters, those with the balls to execute this plan (Nat is also welcome) i really hope she will be involved, as she will have a major role to play, if all goes well.
I'm planning to storm The Reebok after the game against Blackpool, take it by surprise, not many people,fans, Police and hopefully Stewards about.
Then install a new Crack Management and Financial Team
Breadman... Chairman.
Natasha ... Manager.
Scott ... Assistant Manager.
Doffy ... Head Coach.
Angry Dad ... Fitness Coach and Head of Security.
Wander ... Public Liaison Manager.
RT... Deputy Public Liaison Manager
Karly ... Press Spokesman.
Magoo ... Catering Manager.
BWFC71 ... Transport Coordinator
Boltonbonce... New Announcer.
Culcheth White ... Head of Ticketing and Media.
Are you all behind me fellow nutters.
When Nat gets the sack in a couple of weeks, does this mean that I get to take over as Manager?
Yes.
If I'm being Chairman (cheers, Banksy), I'll give Whittam a month and about £500k to turn it round, then when she blows it all on Nugent and shoes, I'll sack her and you can take over.
You can even have a painted space with your name on in the car park for the caravan.
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