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Brexit negotiations

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211Brexit negotiations - Page 8 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Nov 23 2018, 17:17

Cajunboy

Cajunboy
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@Natasha Whittam wrote:It will get through Parliament because most of the British public, whether they wanted to leave or not, just want the whole thing sorted so we can move on.

I've started building that stature of our great leader, I'm hoping to get permission to display it on top of Whittam Towers.
The British public voted to leave.

They aren't voting again.

This comes down to the parliamentary arithmetic now.

If she fails at the first attempt, then the EU might toss her a few more crumbs for another vote.

212Brexit negotiations - Page 8 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Nov 23 2018, 23:12

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
Even May knows we would be better off remaining in the EU than accepting this deal. She just can't admit it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46312909

213Brexit negotiations - Page 8 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Nov 24 2018, 00:54

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@xmiles wrote:Even May knows we would be better off remaining in the EU than accepting this deal. She just can't admit it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46312909

I actual listened to her answer at the time and thought how poorly she answered it.

I would have thought that would have been an obvious question to have been prepared from if she was throwing herself to the public - and in all honesty an easy one to answer.

If it had been me faced with that question I would have said something like -

Well of course I'm on record of voting Remain, so I obviously thought at the time staying in the EU was the right thing to do but at the end of the day the country voted for Brexit and it is my duty to carry out those wishes to the very best of my ability and achieve the best deal for the country that I possibly can - and which I truly believe I have.

Clearly the future of the country outside the EU will be different from that if we had stayed but which of the two would be the best you ask?

Well the honest answer is that non of us know - I guess it is a bit like the film Sliding Doors - there are two different endings but we can only go down one path - and we have chosen ours.  We will learn in time what happens to us as we travel along the Brexit route - but we will never know the outcome if we had stayed in the EU because of course we haven't.

At least now we will have control over our boarders and our laws will once again become sovereign and no longer answerable to Brussels - and that is what the people voted for.

So yes if that is important to the majority of people then clearly Brexit will be better for us and isn't that a wonderful start as a basis to build a better Great Britton for us all, which is something we could never have been able to do if we had have stayed in the EU?

Or something like that!

214Brexit negotiations - Page 8 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Nov 24 2018, 10:07

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
Nice try sluffy but you go completely off the rails in your penultimate paragraph.

Just over a third of the electorate voted for brexit, hardly "the majority of people". And it is ridiculous to say that brexit is "a basis to build a better Great Britton for us all, which is something we could never have been able to do if we had have stayed in the EU". You contradict this yourself a couple of paragraphs earlier when you say "We will learn in time what happens to us as we travel along the Brexit route - but we will never know the outcome if we had stayed in the EU because of course we haven't".

May could not say we will be better off with this deal because she knows that it is inferior to what we had as a member of the EU. It is what the vast majority of experts have always said. The contrary view is held by serial liars like Boris and Trump and people like Farage, Rees-Mogg, Putin and a few greedy right wing billionaires.

215Brexit negotiations - Page 8 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Nov 24 2018, 11:44

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
To be honest mate I'm not at all bothered, that was just my sort of top of the head reply at 1 o'clock this morning after returning from a night out!

I'm sure a reply could have been constructed a thousand times better than my attempted by her professional (and no doubt highly paid) advisors.

At the end of the day we are where we are.

People can cry as much as they want as to whether the referendum was fair or whether it was a true representation of the people or whatever else they think about because that boat as sailed and there's clearly no going back on it.

If people want to halt Brexit they have to do something that is a 'live' issue - get their MP's to vote against the Government proposals and perhaps seek a new referendum or general election or something like that.

To be honest though most people I know are simply sick to death hearing about 'Brexit' all the time now and would rather it is just done and put to bed now as it is clear to them that nobody as the balls to stand up and wants to stop it. The Conservatives Brexiteers Mogg, Davies, Johnson, Gove, Leadsom, etc, etc can't even get above 5% of the Conservative MP's to put in a letter of No Confidence in who they probably believe is the worst PM we've ever had.  Labour Party under the nutjobs of the left fronted by Corbyn are more bothered about winning an election AFTER Brexit, rather than trying to prevent it and DUP, Scottish Conservative group, Lib Dem's and other minor groupings are just a joke quite frankly.

Until the public show there is no will for this to happen with mass marches on the street throughout the country - maybe even rioting such as there was against the proposed Poll Tax at the time  - then the politicians won't change their stance on things - but there is certainly not that amount of anger/passion about the issue from the vast majority of the people on the street for that to happen.

I'm sure that there are still many twist and turns to be played out before we are scheduled to leave the EU and maybe there is some way to make a better deal or even not leave at all - but looking back to what did or did not happen fairly at the Referendum has long since passed and won't have any bearing on what is to happen in the future.



Last edited by Sluffy on Sat Nov 24 2018, 11:48; edited 1 time in total

216Brexit negotiations - Page 8 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Nov 24 2018, 11:47

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Sluffy wrote:To be honest mate I'm not at all bothered, that was just my sort of top of the head reply at 1 o'clock this morning after returning from a night out!


Did you pull?

217Brexit negotiations - Page 8 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Nov 24 2018, 11:50

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@Natasha Whittam wrote:
@Sluffy wrote:To be honest mate I'm not at all bothered, that was just my sort of top of the head reply at 1 o'clock this morning after returning from a night out!


Did you pull?

At my age I'm lucky to pull a muscle let alone anything else.

218Brexit negotiations - Page 8 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Nov 24 2018, 12:07

okocha

okocha
Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
With apologies to Simon and Garfunkel: All lies and spin, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.

219Brexit negotiations - Page 8 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Nov 25 2018, 11:10

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
All done and dusted. What a woman. Despite opposition from some in her own party she has pushed it through and kept her job.

Inspirational.

220Brexit negotiations - Page 8 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Nov 25 2018, 11:16

karlypants

karlypants
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Natasha Whittam wrote:All done and dusted. What a woman. Despite opposition from some in her own party she has pushed it through and kept her job.

Inspirational.

:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

221Brexit negotiations - Page 8 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Nov 25 2018, 11:18

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
In all seriousness I've heard people praising her 'remarkable resilience' - essentially for not resigning despite getting battered for 2 years.

Embarrassingly low standards.

222Brexit negotiations - Page 8 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Nov 25 2018, 12:31

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
You might be right, but she's done what she set out to do despite many saying she wouldn't keep her job.

223Brexit negotiations - Page 8 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Nov 25 2018, 13:34

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
She set out to get us a good deal, she's ended up capitulating to the EU and giving in to near enough every one of their demands. 

I don't blame her for that, it was obvious we'd never get a good deal out of them to everyone except leavers - especially if we want to end freedom of movement.

But let's not pretend she's negotiated with any skill or expertise, or that she's led the country well. It's been a shambles for two years, and now she's got to get it through parliament.

224Brexit negotiations - Page 8 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Nov 25 2018, 13:43

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I agree it's a shambles, but she's done her best with little support.

225Brexit negotiations - Page 8 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Nov 25 2018, 13:47

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
She's responsible for the state of these negotiations over the last two years, she triggered Article 50 without laying any groundwork, she called a general election and she set her red lines - which pandered to the right of her party and made a rod for her own back in negotiations.

If this is 'her best' it's a long way short of the standards we need.

226Brexit negotiations - Page 8 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Nov 25 2018, 13:48

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@T.R.O.Y wrote:She's responsible for the state of these negotiations over the last two years, she triggered Article 50 without laying any groundwork, she called a general election and she set her red lines - which pandered to the right of her party and made a rod for her own back in negotiations.

If this is 'her best' it's a long way short of the standards we need.

When did any politician (in recent times) meet the required standard?

227Brexit negotiations - Page 8 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Nov 25 2018, 13:58

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
So your solution to that is to lower your standards and congratulate her for doing a great job at not resigning?

I'd prefer them to be held to account.

228Brexit negotiations - Page 8 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Nov 25 2018, 14:50

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@T.R.O.Y wrote:She's responsible for the state of these negotiations over the last two years, she triggered Article 50 without laying any groundwork, she called a general election and she set her red lines - which pandered to the right of her party and made a rod for her own back in negotiations.

If this is 'her best' it's a long way short of the standards we need.

Pandering to the right wing europhobes in the Tory party is her biggest mistake. There was no public demand or even interest in a referendum in the first place. We only had one because Cameron foolishly thought he would win it and that would shut up the right wing element. It wouldn't have worked even if he had won.

If May had not immediately committed herself to a hard brexit she would have had more room for manoeuvre. However for purely party political reasons and in a futile attempt to buy the support of the right wing loons in her party she set her red lines. This is neither good leadership nor the basis for effective negotiation.

229Brexit negotiations - Page 8 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Nov 25 2018, 15:13

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Bob on XM, she made a rod for her own back by going for popularity with her party over what was good for the country. Laughable that anyone can look at her performance and say anything positive.

230Brexit negotiations - Page 8 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Nov 25 2018, 15:18

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@T.R.O.Y wrote:So your solution to that is to lower your standards and congratulate her for doing a great job at not resigning?

I'd prefer them to be held to account.

It's easy to say you'd hold them to account when you sit in the Labour camp.

She's done a good job in difficult circumstances, that's all I'm saying.


231Brexit negotiations - Page 8 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Nov 25 2018, 15:19

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@T.R.O.Y wrote:Laughable that anyone can look at her performance and say anything positive.

You always let yourself down with the insults. I have a differing view, just accept it.

232Brexit negotiations - Page 8 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Nov 25 2018, 15:26

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@Natasha Whittam wrote:
@T.R.O.Y wrote:Laughable that anyone can look at her performance and say anything positive.

You always let yourself down with the insults. I have a differing view, just accept it.

Didn’t meant to insult, surprised maybe a better word for it.

233Brexit negotiations - Page 8 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Nov 25 2018, 15:35

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@Natasha Whittam wrote:
@T.R.O.Y wrote:So your solution to that is to lower your standards and congratulate her for doing a great job at not resigning?

I'd prefer them to be held to account.

It's easy to say you'd hold them to account when you sit in the Labour camp.

She's done a good job in difficult circumstances, that's all I'm saying.



Fair enough, I just don’t understand what measure could be used to say she’s done a good job.

234Brexit negotiations - Page 8 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Nov 25 2018, 15:49

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@T.R.O.Y wrote:Bob on XM, she made a rod for her own back by going for popularity with her party over what was good for the country. Laughable that anyone can look at her performance and say anything positive.

Putting Brexit to one side, politics is all about gaining power, and once gained retaining it.

May (or anyone else) in her position as leader of the party in government would seek to retain their leadership (particularly faced with having no overall majority in Parliament) by having to please as many MP's as she can irrespective of their diverging views on the key issue of the time (Brexit obviously) in order not to lose crucial votes and ultimately her position as Prime Minister.

Therefore judged as purely a 'politician' she's done fantastically well to still remain in charge - despite a deeply divisive policy she has formulated and guided through Parliament (and the EU don't forget) and still be in with a shout of winning the key Commons vote coming up, despite probably the vast majority of her party, the rest of Parliament and probably the country as a whole - being against it!

However that being said, I think it probably speaks volumes as to how poorly democracy sometimes works when self interest of individuals and party's takes precedence over what most probably want - particularly when the main government opposition party itself puts its own agenda (obtaining power in the next General Election on the back of an publicly viewed unpopular delivered Brexit by the Conservative Party) before what I suspect most of it's members (and the public in general) would want.

However we are where we are and I dare say there are plenty of twists and turns yet to come in regards to Brexit yet.

235Brexit negotiations - Page 8 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Nov 25 2018, 16:38

Cajunboy

Cajunboy
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@xmiles wrote:

Pandering to the right wing europhobes in the Tory party is her biggest mistake. There was no public demand or even interest in a referendum in the first place. We only had one because Cameron foolishly thought he would win it and that would shut up the right wing element. It wouldn't have worked even if he had won.

Following the election, the opposition Labour Party withdrew its opposition to holding an in-out EU referendum. On the bill's second reading, on 9 June 2015, MPs voted by 544 to 53 in favour of the principle of holding a referendum with only the Scottish National Party opposing the Bill.

236Brexit negotiations - Page 8 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Nov 25 2018, 17:10

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
What’s your point Cajun?

237Brexit negotiations - Page 8 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Nov 25 2018, 17:32

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@Cajunboy wrote:
@xmiles wrote:

Pandering to the right wing europhobes in the Tory party is her biggest mistake. There was no public demand or even interest in a referendum in the first place. We only had one because Cameron foolishly thought he would win it and that would shut up the right wing element. It wouldn't have worked even if he had won.

Following the election, the opposition Labour Party withdrew its opposition to holding an in-out EU referendum. On the bill's second reading, on 9 June 2015, MPs voted by 544 to 53 in favour of the principle of holding a referendum with only the Scottish National Party opposing the Bill.

The Labour party campaigned against a referendum during the 2015 general election, quite correctly pointing out that it would be destabilising. Just because they then failed to oppose Cameron's proposal in no way undermines the basic point: it was Cameron's stupid idea to hold a referendum and he only did it for selfish party political reasons.

238Brexit negotiations - Page 8 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Nov 25 2018, 18:08

Cajunboy

Cajunboy
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
So it was okay for The Labour party to  destabilise the country after the election?

I see, thanks.

239Brexit negotiations - Page 8 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Nov 25 2018, 18:35

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@Cajunboy wrote:So it was okay for The Labour party to  destabilise the country after the election?

I see, thanks.

What? That doesn’t make any sense. They campaigned against the referendum and then gave up on losing the election.

240Brexit negotiations - Page 8 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Nov 25 2018, 19:02

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@Cajunboy wrote:So it was okay for The Labour party to  destabilise the country after the election?

I see, thanks.

Are you serious?

Cameron had a majority and he was going to have the referendum whatever the Labour party did or did not do. It was Cameron who destabilised the country for purely selfish party political reasons.

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