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Brexit negotiations

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811Brexit negotiations - Page 28 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Feb 05 2019, 10:27

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
No I didn't. My opposition to brexit is not because I think the EU is perfect. It is far from perfect and has many problems but it still offers the UK many advantages. Currently we have a pretty good deal.

Leaving the EU will damage our economy. The only question is just how badly. Many of the people who will be affected (like the Nissan employees) voted brexit. I know posters on here will say they were not influenced by the lies of the brexit campaign but undoubtedly many did really believe that the NHS would get £350m and that Turkey was about to join the EU.

Given that the leave campaign was corrupt and never mentioned any details about what brexit actually meant I think it is now necessary to have another referendum to resolve matters.

812Brexit negotiations - Page 28 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Feb 05 2019, 11:40

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@gloswhite wrote:XM, did you see the program on the TV last night about 10 years of turmoil in Europe, trying to save the Euro, etc?  Fascinating , and quite an eye-opener. Merkel comes out of it as a single-minded bully, and really not a very nice person. It also shows how determined they are to get their way. Not easily manipulated by others (us), as some would like to think. It doesn't matter who takes us forward, its going to be an extremely difficult task.
I did and I thought Merkel came out of it very well despite the spin, given that the whole point of the EU is to create a strong and unified trading and power block that is able to compete with (or moreover not get crushed by) the economic and military superpowers in the increasingly globalised future that is inevitable. The Euro makes every sense in that scenario and it is by no means easy to get it up and running, especially when there were previously 27 countries that had an emotional attachment to their old currencies, but to be fair they all manned up and accepted the inevitability of change in the end - apart from the UK which seems to think having a picture of the queen on the money is more important than progress and staying competitive in the future.


I can understand that this would be scoffed at by small-minded NIMBYs who are change averse even though the advances in communications, technology and transport have already happened and a dependency on global trade already exists. That view would certainly be adopted by those who were taken in by the corrupt Leave campaign as documented in the excellent and balanced fact-based drama documentary Brexit-the Uncivil War which can be seen here until tomorrow.

813Brexit negotiations - Page 28 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Feb 05 2019, 16:57

gloswhite

gloswhite
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
Good grief ! I ask a straight-forward question, and get a lecture from both Europhiles. 
But to go to your points Wander, yes, she was good, in what she did, and how she did it, but she didn't give a shit on who she stamped on to get where only she sometimes wanted to go. Fortunately, many of the more level-headed politicians managed to reign her in a bit. 
The next episode, which I believe will show the details about uncontrolled immigration, and where the EU couldn't cope again, should be good. Looking forward to it.

814Brexit negotiations - Page 28 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Feb 05 2019, 17:37

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@gloswhite wrote: she was good, in what she did, and how she did it, but she didn't give a shit on who she stamped on to get where only she sometimes wanted to go. 

Brexit negotiations - Page 28 Thatcher_eating_someone

815Brexit negotiations - Page 28 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Feb 05 2019, 17:43

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@boltonbonce wrote:
@gloswhite wrote: she was good, in what she did, and how she did it, but she didn't give a shit on who she stamped on to get where only she sometimes wanted to go. 

Brexit negotiations - Page 28 Thatcher_eating_someone

Laughing

816Brexit negotiations - Page 28 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Feb 06 2019, 07:33

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@gloswhite wrote:
The next episode, which I believe will show the details about uncontrolled immigration, and where the EU couldn't cope again, should be good. Looking forward to it.
So it's not likely that there will be an episode on the EU winning the 2012 Nobel Peace prize for "the advancement of peace and reconciliation, democracy and human rights in Europe" then?

Or leading the world in the clean up of ecological cock ups and improvements of air and water quality (including creating turd free beaches Very Happy )? 

Or contributing over 50% of the world's foreign aid?

Or their achievements in tackling discrimination on the basis of gender, race, age and disability?

Or providing unprecedented investment in propping up and turning around failing UK industries to provide jobs for millions of Brits?

I think we know where this is going....

817Brexit negotiations - Page 28 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Feb 06 2019, 08:30

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@wanderlust wrote:
@gloswhite wrote:
The next episode, which I believe will show the details about uncontrolled immigration, and where the EU couldn't cope again, should be good. Looking forward to it.
So it's not likely that there will be an episode on the EU winning the 2012 Nobel Peace prize for "the advancement of peace and reconciliation, democracy and human rights in Europe" then?

Or leading the world in the clean up of ecological cock ups and improvements of air and water quality (including creating turd free beaches Very Happy )? 

Or contributing over 50% of the world's foreign aid?

Or their achievements in tackling discrimination on the basis of gender, race, age and disability?

Or providing unprecedented investment in propping up and turning around failing UK industries to provide jobs for millions of Brits?

I think we know where this is going....

Stop bothering glos with facts! He doesn't like being lectured.

818Brexit negotiations - Page 28 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Feb 06 2019, 09:26

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Mods, do your job, time for xmiles to be confined to posting in the Film & TV thread.

819Brexit negotiations - Page 28 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Feb 06 2019, 09:47

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@xmiles wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:
@gloswhite wrote:
The next episode, which I believe will show the details about uncontrolled immigration, and where the EU couldn't cope again, should be good. Looking forward to it.
So it's not likely that there will be an episode on the EU winning the 2012 Nobel Peace prize for "the advancement of peace and reconciliation, democracy and human rights in Europe" then?

Or leading the world in the clean up of ecological cock ups and improvements of air and water quality (including creating turd free beaches Very Happy )? 

Or contributing over 50% of the world's foreign aid?

Or their achievements in tackling discrimination on the basis of gender, race, age and disability?

Or providing unprecedented investment in propping up and turning around failing UK industries to provide jobs for millions of Brits?

I think we know where this is going....

Stop bothering glos with facts! He doesn't like being lectured.
That's not the point I was making X - nor am I trying to lecture Glos, whose opinion I respect even if we don't always agree. I was merely implying that the series does not necessarily present a balanced view of the EU - which pretty much reflects the British media over the last 30 years since they lost sight of the very reasons that swept us into Europe in the first place - and how bad Britain was beforehand. I just think that Britain has benefited hugely from EU membership and now that we have those benefits the media is taking them for granted and find it easier to pick faults in what is a work in progress than to remind the public of the benefits.

820Brexit negotiations - Page 28 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Feb 06 2019, 10:04

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Corbyns true colours revealed for everyone to see. 

And he makes some excellent points.



https://twitter.com/TheRedRoar/status/1092522416591519745?s=19

821Brexit negotiations - Page 28 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Feb 06 2019, 11:09

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:Corbyns true colours revealed for everyone to see. 

And he makes some excellent points.



https://twitter.com/TheRedRoar/status/1092522416591519745?s=19

Nothing new here.

Corbyn is a hypocrite and I have never believed that he voted remain. He certainly didn't actively assist the remain campaign in any way.

822Brexit negotiations - Page 28 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Feb 06 2019, 16:29

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
"A special place in hell....Smile"

Made me laugh this one.

823Brexit negotiations - Page 28 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Feb 07 2019, 01:47

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
So with the EU leaders reiterating that there will be no renegotiation, despite May going back with "a new mandate and renewed determination" it now looks nailed on that the only choice being given is May's deal or no deal as predicted.

This will be fun as the MPs that united to defeat May's deal will now form new lines so it will be interesting to see what Brexit means to them - other than "Brexit means Brexit" - whatever that's supposed to mean.

But for the ordinary people it's looking like "You brexit, you bought it"

And obviously the "people's vote" is off the table as it would leave May and her cronies with nothing.

At least we have a choice between eating a shit sandwich or kick in the balls.

824Brexit negotiations - Page 28 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Feb 07 2019, 08:25

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
This is what "taking back control" looks like. Rolling Eyes

825Brexit negotiations - Page 28 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Feb 07 2019, 10:54

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@wanderlust wrote:"A special place in hell....Smile"

Made me laugh this one.

And they keep sneering and looking down on us.

They just don't get it do they.

826Brexit negotiations - Page 28 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Feb 07 2019, 11:06

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:"A special place in hell....Smile"

Made me laugh this one.

And they keep sneering and looking down on us.

They just don't get it do they.
Why wouldn't they sneer? The government have made a complete balls of it, and thinks the EU should sort it out for them.
It's rather like a man who, having stood in a pile of dog shit, blames his shoes, and demands recompense from the manufacturer.

827Brexit negotiations - Page 28 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Feb 07 2019, 11:11

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Do you think they've ever asked themselves. Why did 17 million people wish to leave the EU? 

No I don't think so either. 

Putting a hard border up would be my response to this comment.

828Brexit negotiations - Page 28 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Feb 07 2019, 11:33

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:"A special place in hell....Smile"

Made me laugh this one.

And they keep sneering and looking down on us.

They just don't get it do they.

He is not "sneering and looking down on us". He is commenting on "those who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan of how to carry it out safely". Which is an entirely accurate statement. Which is then twisted in standard brexiteer fake news style as something completely different. Just like the £350m for the NHS, etc, etc.

829Brexit negotiations - Page 28 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Feb 07 2019, 11:52

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:Do you think they've ever asked themselves. Why did 17 million people wish to leave the EU? 

No I don't think so either. 

Putting a hard border up would be my response to this comment.
It would be a bit harsh on the 50 million people who didn't vote to leave but we should build a wall down the middle of the English Channel, North Sea and Irish Sea with a wee swerve across the Irish border to take in a bit of the Atlantic and join up somewhere north of the Orkneys.

That said, the Prison system is already underfunded so an undertaking of this scale could only be funded by 100% direct taxation on people who voted Leave and their descendants. Seems fair to me.

830Brexit negotiations - Page 28 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Feb 07 2019, 12:39

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
It could be funded by taxation or borrowing. That's the only source of government money.

831Brexit negotiations - Page 28 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Feb 07 2019, 12:41

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@xmiles wrote:
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:"A special place in hell....Smile"

Made me laugh this one.

And they keep sneering and looking down on us.

They just don't get it do they.

He is not "sneering and looking down on us". He is commenting on "those who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan of how to carry it out safely". Which is an entirely accurate statement. Which is then twisted in standard brexiteer fake news style as something completely different. Just like the £350m for the NHS, etc, etc.

They are sneering. Just go on twitter. Look at them yucking it up on the podiums yesterday.

Look at the comments from guy verhofstadt.

832Brexit negotiations - Page 28 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Feb 07 2019, 14:01

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:
@xmiles wrote:
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:"A special place in hell....Smile"

Made me laugh this one.

And they keep sneering and looking down on us.

They just don't get it do they.

He is not "sneering and looking down on us". He is commenting on "those who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan of how to carry it out safely". Which is an entirely accurate statement. Which is then twisted in standard brexiteer fake news style as something completely different. Just like the £350m for the NHS, etc, etc.

They are sneering. Just go on twitter. Look at them yucking it up on the podiums yesterday.

Look at the comments from guy verhofstadt.

At "those who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan of how to carry it out safely".

Which is perfectly justified.

833Brexit negotiations - Page 28 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Feb 07 2019, 14:36

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Given that the entire Leave campaign was underpinned by 30 years of the British gutter press sneering at our European partners, inciting nationalism and making derogatory remarks when it suited them, these comments are mild by comparison.

Who can forget Murdoch's classic headline "Up Yours Delors" when the EU introduced anti-monopoly laws, controls on satellite broadcasting and the plan to clean up tax havens throughout Europe?

834Brexit negotiations - Page 28 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Feb 07 2019, 15:14

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@xmiles wrote:
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:
@xmiles wrote:
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:"A special place in hell....Smile"

Made me laugh this one.

And they keep sneering and looking down on us.

They just don't get it do they.

He is not "sneering and looking down on us". He is commenting on "those who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan of how to carry it out safely". Which is an entirely accurate statement. Which is then twisted in standard brexiteer fake news style as something completely different. Just like the £350m for the NHS, etc, etc.

They are sneering. Just go on twitter. Look at them yucking it up on the podiums yesterday.

Look at the comments from guy verhofstadt.

At "those who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan of how to carry it out safely".

Which is perfectly justified.

It goes much deeper than that as you know.

835Brexit negotiations - Page 28 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Feb 07 2019, 15:35

gloswhite

gloswhite
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
@xmiles wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:
@gloswhite wrote:
The next episode, which I believe will show the details about uncontrolled immigration, and where the EU couldn't cope again, should be good. Looking forward to it.
So it's not likely that there will be an episode on the EU winning the 2012 Nobel Peace prize for "the advancement of peace and reconciliation, democracy and human rights in Europe" then?

Or leading the world in the clean up of ecological cock ups and improvements of air and water quality (including creating turd free beaches Very Happy )? 

Or contributing over 50% of the world's foreign aid?

Or their achievements in tackling discrimination on the basis of gender, race, age and disability?

Or providing unprecedented investment in propping up and turning around failing UK industries to provide jobs for millions of Brits?

I think we know where this is going....

Stop bothering glos with facts! He doesn't like being lectured.
Bit harsh XM  Very Happy
Just making my own points, and steering around and through the blizzard of comments that ignores anything other than bad news about Brexit, (mainly from yourself).
You're right though. I don't like being lectured, especially by people who are unable to see anything whatsoever in views that don't conform with their own. Even more so when the the needle is stuck and they go on and on about the same things.
Nothing personal. In fact I sincerely hope your recovery after this Brexit ordeal is swift and comprehensive, and you again become a functioning member of the general public.  Smile

836Brexit negotiations - Page 28 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Feb 07 2019, 15:57

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:
@xmiles wrote:
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:
@xmiles wrote:
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:"A special place in hell....Smile"

Made me laugh this one.

And they keep sneering and looking down on us.

They just don't get it do they.

He is not "sneering and looking down on us". He is commenting on "those who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan of how to carry it out safely". Which is an entirely accurate statement. Which is then twisted in standard brexiteer fake news style as something completely different. Just like the £350m for the NHS, etc, etc.

They are sneering. Just go on twitter. Look at them yucking it up on the podiums yesterday.

Look at the comments from guy verhofstadt.

At "those who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan of how to carry it out safely".

Which is perfectly justified.

It goes much deeper than that as you know.

Virtually all the abuse has come from anti EU sources (see WL's post immediately above for some examples) and yet when Tusk says something mildly controversial brexiteers make out that it is a big deal.

837Brexit negotiations - Page 28 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Feb 08 2019, 11:27

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Breaking news: Government considering a plan to slash business taxes to try to save the economy if there is a no deal Brexit. Presumably this would be try to deter foreign employers and manufacturers such as Nissan from leaving the UK and to partially offset the increased costs of parts and materials caused by the introduction of tariffs. Theoretically it would help minimise job losses but the Treasury would have to take the hit which in turn would lead to further reductions in public services, NHS funding and pensions.

838Brexit negotiations - Page 28 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Feb 08 2019, 11:37

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Meanwhile Tusk piles the misery on May by backing Corbyn's Brexit plan, as I said a few months ago May's red lines don't give her the necessary flexibility to get a deal.

https://news.sky.com/story/jeremy-corbyns-brexit-plan-promising-donald-tusk-tells-theresa-may-11630806

839Brexit negotiations - Page 28 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Feb 08 2019, 14:49

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@T.R.O.Y wrote:Meanwhile Tusk piles the misery on May by backing Corbyn's Brexit plan, as I said a few months ago May's red lines don't give her the necessary flexibility to get a deal.

https://news.sky.com/story/jeremy-corbyns-brexit-plan-promising-donald-tusk-tells-theresa-may-11630806
No wonder Tusk would like to discuss Corbyn's proposals as they are total sellout e.g. forfeiting the control we had over trade deals. Chuka Amunna rightly points out that Corbyn has betrayed the Labour party, the younger generation and working people:

As the Brexit negotiations stagger on, a large swathe of Labour voters will be bitterly disappointed this week by the party leadership. In particular, younger voters who flocked to the party in 2017 in the expectation that the party would fight this Tory disaster will feel they have been sold down the river. Worse still, many think Labour is complicit.
Today, Richard Brooks, one of the co-founders of anti-Brexit youth group For our Future’s Sake, spelt out how young Labour voters feel: “The Liberal Democrats went onto campuses and promised young people to not increase tuition fees. When they trebled them, only months later, young people and students mobilised – and in 2015 the Liberal Democrats were all but wiped out. The Labour Partynow has the same existential threat before it. Does it enable a Tory Brexit, which will disproportionately harm young and working-class people, or does Labour follow the wishes of hundreds of thousands of members like me, and support a people’s vote?” He is absolutely right.
In a letter to Theresa May last night, Jeremy Corbyn said he would help to facilitate Brexit and support her deal if May meets five key tests. One of Labour’s original tests, which demanded the exact same economic benefits outside the EU as we have within it, has been dropped. It was never realistic – at least he has realised this much. There was also the mantra that Labour would seek a “jobs first” Brexit. But Brexit, in the terms that the British people voted for originally, is impossible to deliver and there is no point pretending that anything short of keeping the current deal as an EU member is going to be good for the economy. In fact it will be the opposite, especially for jobs.
Whether May meets these five tests or not, they are not credible, nor do they take us any closer to a Final Say on the deal. Let’s go through them briefly.

“A permanent and comprehensive UK-wide customs union” with “a UK say on future EU trade deals” is the first demand. You cannot have a say on EU trade policy because EU treaties grant the EU sole competence over its common commercial policy. Seeking to participate in a customs union and expecting influence and a say on trade deals is not on the table – just ask Turkey, which participates in the customs union but has no say over trade deals.
Second, Labour seeks “close alignment with the single market” which should be “underpinned by shared institutions and obligations”. This is a weakening of the Labour Party conference motion which talked about “full participation in the single market”, something which is only possible if you continue to participate in the single market through membership of the European Economic Area, which Keir Starmer, the shadow Brexit secretary, made very clear in the House of Commons last July that the Labour front bench was opposed to.

Third, the letter demands a “dynamic alignment on rights and protections so that UK standards keep pace with evolving standards across Europe as a minimum”. How on earth can you expect that from a Conservative prime minister when she, a member of cabinet for the past eight years, has sponsored the weakening of unfair dismissal protections, imposed employment tribunal fees which were ruled unlawful by the Supreme Court and overseen the watering-down of the statutory remit of the Equality and Human Rights Commission?
Finally, the fourth and fifth points ask for clear commitments on participation in EU agencies and funding programmes, as well as unambiguous agreements on the details of future security arrangements. The truth is that everything in the political declaration is an aspiration – all of it is ambiguous, whether on security arrangements or otherwise, because it is not binding and subject to a future trading agreement being signed off in several years’ time. The prime minister is unlikely still to be in place when the future trading arrangement is finalised, and neither will the main EU leaders. Any promises involving these people, therefore, aren’t worth the paper they’re written on, as others will be in charge when the time comes.
In short, these tests are nonsense and Labour’s policy is all over the place. 
Above all, the letter makes no mention of referring this back to the people. The spirit of Labour’s conference policy was that if we couldn’t get an election, Labour would commit to referring this issue back to the people. 
The leader and those around him have made it is clear they have no interest in going there at all. He has also tacitly given a green light to those who not only won’t support a people’s vote but are also happy to thwart the House of Commons’ ability to stop the UK crashing out of the EU without a deal in 50 days. That is the harsh reality of what we have learned these past couple of weeks. The party won’t be forgiven by the next generation.

840Brexit negotiations - Page 28 Empty Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Feb 08 2019, 15:37

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I wonder why the EU would back corbyns plan of staying in the EU but pretending to leave.

Strange.

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