Brexit negotiations

Natasha Whittam wrote:

xmiles wrote:It has well over 3.5 million signatures now. But it doesn't matter how many signatures it gets May won't listen. She is incapable of listening to anybody who doesn't agree with her. That is why we are in the mess we are in now. If she was prepared to compromise she could have delivered brexit.

16 million people voted to remain, but only 4 million signatures on this petition.

So I'm not sure why you think 4 million signatures is significant. What happened to the other 12 million?

Bit dim comparing an online petition with a referendum.

How many people who voted for Scotland to remain in the UK have changed their mind.

It's a bit strange the Democrats supporting a people's vote won't give us another say isn't it.

Can’t disagree with that. General election and a less damaging Brexit would be my choice.

Tories would happily sacrifice the country to stay in power though so we’ll probably end up with no deal.

TROY why do you want brexit, albeit a less damaging one than May's?

Because he can't bring himself to question the dear leader? 

I thought farage was right this week when he said let parliament decide between no deal and remain and be done with it.

If any party wishes to run on leaving again so be it.

I heard a political commentator on TV last night call Mrs. May a "tyrant".  

Maybe that's a bit strong but she is certainly an egotist, a control freak, a sly manipulator who is economical with the truth, unfeeling, pig-headed, and an extraordinarily bad judge.

The country can't afford to retain her as its leader any longer. Her negotiating skills are non-existent. Who would back her or her team to negotiate new trade deals successfully with the rest of the world?

Not only does she not listen, she doesn't even pretend to....certainly not since 2016 when the essential requisite was to involve parliament in a consensus that would surely by now have passed muster with the country and with the EU. It's always been "me, me, me", no matter what expert advice has been available to her which would enable us to find as much equanimity as possible in this crazy proposal that threatens ruin. 

Did Ireland feature at all in the 2016 referendum debate? No, yet it is now the biggest sticking-point. Shocking dereliction of duty to fail to point out the pitfalls to the electorate and instead promote lies and false claims.

Our financial contribution to the EU is just 1% of the government's annual spending power and for that we get many, many benefits which we now stand to throw away recklessly. The country's welfare is far more important than the future success of each individual political party. Finding a way to unite the country rather than divide it was always the missing essential. May and many other politicians  have failed to recognise this basic truth.

Hipster_Nebula wrote:

I thought farage was right this week when he said let parliament decide between no deal and remain and be done with it.

Obviously parliament can't take the decision to remain so Herr Farage is just trying to be a smartarse.
However with May floundering around for new ideas, a referendum where the choices are remain or leave without a deal could be an option.

Actually lusty Parliament CAN make that decision. It was announced ages ago that Article Fifty can be cancelled at any time provided we haven't already left the EU. However it would be political suicide for those MPs who represent "Leave" areas to vote in favour of remain now.

As to a referendum I suspect it's simply too late to organise one. Since the due exit date is 29th March and even the longest available extension only goes to May 22nd it doesn't seem feasible to hold a full referendum campaign.

While I personally believe Brexit will be a disaster for the country this tortuous twisting and turning in a desperate bid to find some kind of "deal" is far more damaging to the nation in the short term imo. Personally I believe our PM should simply bite the bullet and do what the voters told her to which is exit the EU now without all this faffing about.

okocha wrote:I heard a political commentator on TV last night call Mrs. May a "tyrant".  

Maybe that's a bit strong but she is certainly an egotist, a control freak, a sly manipulator who is economical with the truth, unfeeling, pig-headed, and an extraordinarily bad judge.

The country can't afford to retain her as its leader any longer. Her negotiating skills are non-existent. Who would back her or her team to negotiate new trade deals successfully with the rest of the world?

Not only does she not listen, she doesn't even pretend to....certainly not since 2016 when the essential requisite was to involve parliament in a consensus that would surely by now have passed muster with the country and with the EU. It's always been "me, me, me", no matter what expert advice has been available to her which would enable us to find as much equanimity as possible in this crazy proposal that threatens ruin. 

Did Ireland feature at all in the 2016 referendum debate? No, yet it is now the biggest sticking-point. Shocking dereliction of duty to fail to point out the pitfalls to the electorate and instead promote lies and false claims.

Our financial contribution to the EU is just 1% of the government's annual spending power and for that we get many, many benefits which we now stand to throw away recklessly. The country's welfare is far more important than the future success of each individual political party. Finding a way to unite the country rather than divide it was always the missing essential. May and many other politicians  have failed to recognise this basic truth.

May was pretty useless at the Home Office too. She was responsible for massive cuts in police numbers and responsible for the offensive hostile environment campaign which needless to say didn't work and some of its measures have been thrown out by the courts.

luckyPeterpiper wrote:Actually lusty Parliament CAN make that decision. It was announced ages ago that Article Fifty can be cancelled at any time provided we haven't already left the EU. However it would be political suicide for those MPs who represent "Leave" areas to vote in favour of remain now.

As to a referendum I suspect it's simply too late to organise one. Since the due exit date is 29th March and even the longest available extension only goes to May 22nd it doesn't seem feasible to hold a full referendum campaign.

While I personally believe Brexit will be a disaster for the country this tortuous twisting and turning in a desperate bid to find some kind of "deal" is far more damaging to the nation in the short term imo. Personally I believe our PM should simply bite the bullet and do what the voters told her to which is exit the EU now without all this faffing about.

The trouble is that the nature of the brexit was never specified in the referendum. I am pretty certain that a significant number of those who voted leave didn't vote for a no deal brexit and some of them have changed their minds (now that they know what brexit entails) and no longer want brexit.

All of which, plus all the evidence that the majority of voters do not want to leave, is why I hope we don't leave.

xmiles wrote:TROY why do you want brexit, albeit a less damaging one than May's?

We’ve done this twice already on this thread.

T.R.O.Y wrote:

xmiles wrote:TROY why do you want brexit, albeit a less damaging one than May's?

We’ve done this twice already on this thread.

So remind me.

luckyPeterpiper wrote:Actually lusty Parliament CAN make that decision. It was announced ages ago that Article Fifty can be cancelled at any time provided we haven't already left the EU. However it would be political suicide for those MPs who represent "Leave" areas to vote in favour of remain now.

As to a referendum I suspect it's simply too late to organise one. Since the due exit date is 29th March and even the longest available extension only goes to May 22nd it doesn't seem feasible to hold a full referendum campaign.

While I personally believe Brexit will be a disaster for the country this tortuous twisting and turning in a desperate bid to find some kind of "deal" is far more damaging to the nation in the short term imo. Personally I believe our PM should simply bite the bullet and do what the voters told her to which is exit the EU now without all this faffing about.

Obviously they can technically do it but they won't for the reasons you mention. However the EU are doing everything to limit the options to the deal they have agreed (Tusk's comments and the short deadline for example) but if a referendum with those options was proposed to them, they'd find it difficult to justify not accepting a longer deadline. 

Not sure a lengthy referendum campaign is needed TBH. We've heard little but both sides of the argument for the last two years so at least this time the people would actually be informed about what they are voting for, which is why it seems a sensible option to me.

I understand what you mean xmiles but I think there's still a large group who want us out of the EU plus many who'd see a Parliamentary revocation of Article 50 as a 'betrayal of democracy'.

The actual referendum only asked if we should be a member of the EU, nothing else. No mention was made of the terms of our exit and of course no 'deal' was specified since at that time no one knew what if any deal would be negotiated. Unfortunately Mrs May has dragged this out for so long that there's now no time left to properly explain exactly what deal she struck and how it will affect us. One thing is certain, she's basically shot herself in the foot and is now effectively a hostage of the DUP but even with their support she doesn't look likely to be able to get anything through the commons. The entire process has been a mess and frankly I can't see a way out of it that will really do anyone any good in the long run.

luckyPeterpiper wrote:I understand what you mean xmiles but I think there's still a large group who want us out of the EU plus many who'd see a Parliamentary revocation of Article 50 as a 'betrayal of democracy'.

The actual referendum only asked if we should be a member of the EU, nothing else. No mention was made of the terms of our exit and of course no 'deal' was specified since at that time no one knew what if any deal would be negotiated. Unfortunately Mrs May has dragged this out for so long that there's now no time left to properly explain exactly what deal she struck and how it will affect us. One thing is certain, she's basically shot herself in the foot and is now effectively a hostage of the DUP but even with their support she doesn't look likely to be able to get anything through the commons. The entire process has been a mess and frankly I can't see a way out of it that will really do anyone any good in the long run.

A simple no deal/remain referendum would seem to be possible.

The "betrayal of democracy" bullship is just something whipped up by the right wing press and hard core brexiteers. It is hardly a betrayal of democracy to give people a vote! The referendum was three years ago, it is not set in stone. A lot has changed since then and we now have proof that the leave campaign was not only dishonest but also corrupt.

xmiles wrote:

luckyPeterpiper wrote:I understand what you mean xmiles but I think there's still a large group who want us out of the EU plus many who'd see a Parliamentary revocation of Article 50 as a 'betrayal of democracy'.

The actual referendum only asked if we should be a member of the EU, nothing else. No mention was made of the terms of our exit and of course no 'deal' was specified since at that time no one knew what if any deal would be negotiated. Unfortunately Mrs May has dragged this out for so long that there's now no time left to properly explain exactly what deal she struck and how it will affect us. One thing is certain, she's basically shot herself in the foot and is now effectively a hostage of the DUP but even with their support she doesn't look likely to be able to get anything through the commons. The entire process has been a mess and frankly I can't see a way out of it that will really do anyone any good in the long run.

A simple no deal/remain referendum would seem to be possible.

The "betrayal of democracy" bullship is just something whipped up by the right wing press and hard core brexiteers. It is hardly a betrayal of democracy to give people a vote! The referendum was three years ago, it is not set in stone. A lot has changed since then and we now have proof that the leave campaign was not only dishonest but also corrupt.  

You campaigning already? 

xmiles wrote:

luckyPeterpiper wrote:I understand what you mean xmiles but I think there's still a large group who want us out of the EU plus many who'd see a Parliamentary revocation of Article 50 as a 'betrayal of democracy'.

The actual referendum only asked if we should be a member of the EU, nothing else. No mention was made of the terms of our exit and of course no 'deal' was specified since at that time no one knew what if any deal would be negotiated. Unfortunately Mrs May has dragged this out for so long that there's now no time left to properly explain exactly what deal she struck and how it will affect us. One thing is certain, she's basically shot herself in the foot and is now effectively a hostage of the DUP but even with their support she doesn't look likely to be able to get anything through the commons. The entire process has been a mess and frankly I can't see a way out of it that will really do anyone any good in the long run.

A simple no deal/remain referendum would seem to be possible.

The "betrayal of democracy" bullship is just something whipped up by the right wing press and hard core brexiteers. It is hardly a betrayal of democracy to give people a vote! The referendum was three years ago, it is not set in stone. A lot has changed since then and we now have proof that the leave campaign was not only dishonest but also corrupt.  

Don't misunderstand me mate. If a referendum on remain or no deal was held then fair enough. What I meant was Parliament unilaterally deciding to revoke Article 50 without first consulting the country. While I would love to see us remain I don't think the voters as a whole would stomach Parliament simply ignoring the original referendum result that way.

I'm sure we can blame May for almost anything at the moment, and many will. 
What I'm disappointed in is her inability to see, or accept once seen, that she's made a big cock-up, after which she sails merrily on. 
Her errors are there for all to see, right from her first appearance in the political hierarchy. At first I liked her determination to stick to her guns, and so deliver the democratic choice of the majority of voters. I didn't understand why she kept it all to herself, including managing the negotiations. She seems to have a knack of choosing piss poor advisors in the first place, but then going on and ignoring them. As a result, all the capable negotiators jumped ship, leaving us with yes men, and incompetents.

I would ask all of us who have expressed their views on here, what have any of our politicians actually achieved on our behalf? Also, regardless of which side of the argument 'wins' how much has it cost us, and I don't mean financially. We are now the laughing stock of the western world. (a recent TV poll showed that 90% of those asked believed we are suffering from 'national humiliation').
I still want Brexit, mainly for the coming generations, but we've managed to muddy the waters for them as well. All in all, its been a disaster, due to nobody but our politicians, regardless of party. Its time to get rid of the old, and bring in the new, at least they will have this debacle to learn from.

I don’t think I could vote for something I thought was seriously damaging to the country. And don’t expect our politicians to.