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Vince Watch

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121Vince Watch - Page 5 Empty Re: Vince Watch on Thu Oct 29 2020, 00:31

BoltonTillIDie

BoltonTillIDie
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Vince Watch - Page 5 E605f210

122Vince Watch - Page 5 Empty Re: Vince Watch on Thu Oct 29 2020, 07:27

Ten Bobsworth


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Use of limited companies to avoid income tax and national insurance became particularly rife whilst Gordon Brown was Chancellor of the Exchequer. Since then successive Chancellors have taken measures to deter abuses whilst HMRC have challenged some of the questionable arrangements made in football clubs and the BBC in particular.

Because of the deterrents interest free loans, as used by Marcus Rashford and Dale Vince, are much less common than they once were.  But MUCS Enterprises is so cash rich that the principle deterrent is ineffective. Ecotricity isn't cash rich but does seem to be able to borrow loadsamoney to keep Cousin Vinny in the manner to which he's become accustomed, so there's no deterrent there either.

Marcus Rashford is bound to have taken advice but the decision on whether to pay the tax on the money he'd taken out or not pay it was his and he was old enough to take it. The excuse that reliance was placed on advisors was used in the film scams. It didn't wash with HMRC and shouldn't wash with the general public.

123Vince Watch - Page 5 Empty Re: Vince Watch on Thu Oct 29 2020, 08:21

Ten Bobsworth


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Just had a quick look at Fareshare's Annual Report. Not a single football club or footballer is included in its lengthy list of supporters in 2018/19.

'Marcus soon heard Fareshare's call for support' (March 2020 apparently) and has made 'several significant donations' since, its website says. Good on him.



Last edited by Ten Bobsworth on Thu Oct 29 2020, 11:17; edited 1 time in total

124Vince Watch - Page 5 Empty Re: Vince Watch on Thu Oct 29 2020, 09:26

Ten Bobsworth


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@Sluffy wrote:

I've stated my position on the issue in hand namely people send their kids out on to the street are neglecting them - I don't believe anyone can say other.

Tax avoidance is tax avoidance whether Google does it or Rashford so yes it is a fair comparison - they are both doing the same thing.

There's no comparison to Anderson running an insolvent business - it wasn't that he was avoiding paying money it was more that the was no money there to pay anyone - as it happens all footballing creditors received 100% of what was owed, all secured creditors 100% also (apart from himself who waived something like £650k I think it was) and all other unsecured creditors will get 35% of what they are owed - which considering - and is confirmed by the Administrators reports - there wasn't any liquidity in the business to pay anyone at the time their bills were due, was quite an achievement.  

We DO know the tax that Rashford would have paid on his company loan, it is legally set at 19% and we DO know that Rashford is paid enough to be in the top personal tax bracket of 45% - that's not speculation as you seem to be suggesting it is?
I've done some quick calcs, Sluffy. Rashford withdrew £396K from MUCS Enterprises in 2017/18 and it hasn't been repaid yet so far as we know.

We also don't know if it was a single payment or an accumulation of payments. However if the payments were regarded as salary and subject to PAYE a salary of £727K would result in income tax of £313K with a further £18K in employees national insurance leaving him with the £396K.

It would be a bit more because of his other income but its good enough to illustrate the point

An alternative was to take it out as a dividend in which case £240K would cover the tax.

Rashford chose neither. Leaving it as a loan costs him about £4.5K p.a. The company also has to hand over £127K to HMRC but it gets it back if and when the loan gets repaid. Do you recall how Vince dodged that one?

At the last count MUCS Enterprises had £2.8m in the bank so its not as if it couldn't afford to pay £240K in tax, is it?

P.S. The company pays corporation tax on its profits at a modest 19%. Its the personal tax we are talking about and its the personal tax that Marcus Rashford has chosen to avoid. Isn't it interesting that none of the media have picked up on this? Its almost as if, for some unknown reason, he has to be treated like Caesar's wife.

125Vince Watch - Page 5 Empty Re: Vince Watch on Thu Oct 29 2020, 13:52

T.R.O.Y.


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
@Sluffy wrote:I keep telling you I don't believe in the cause!

You don't believe in the cause that children shouldn't go hungry?

126Vince Watch - Page 5 Empty Re: Vince Watch on Thu Oct 29 2020, 14:14

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:
@Sluffy wrote:I keep telling you I don't believe in the cause!

You don't believe in the cause that children shouldn't go hungry?

We go round and round in circles at times.

No child should go hungry.

If they are put on the streets by their parents/guardians unfed, then obviously someone needs to feed them - so failing the usual safety nets then perhaps some temporary measures like FSM are needed.

However that doesn't address the problem of why they are being neglected in the first place - and if they are sent out on to the streets unfed what other nightmares must they be having in doors?

Stop the neglect of the children at source and you don't need unlimited FSM provision.

Providing FSM is not addressing why the children aren't being fed at home is it?

The cause is noble, it provides an immediate 'sticking plaster' but it simply doesn't address the underlying causes of why the children are not being fed - in fact it detracts from it! Just because you solve one part of the child's welfare and safety issue by feeding them - whilst their parents/guardians aren't, it takes away the urgency as to what other neglect the children may be enduring - because anyone capable of not feeding a child is capable of far, far worse behind closed doors.

The issue isn't feeding the child (well it is if they are starving obviously) but why isn't the child being fed in the first place.

127Vince Watch - Page 5 Empty Re: Vince Watch on Thu Oct 29 2020, 14:18

T.R.O.Y.


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Okay so you do believe in the cause. 

And yes benefits aren't there to solve the problem, just to soften the impact. Earlier intervention is needed for the source.

128Vince Watch - Page 5 Empty Re: Vince Watch on Thu Oct 29 2020, 14:19

BoltonTillIDie

BoltonTillIDie
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
It would probably be difficult for the social services to identify any hungry children who are not being looked after as they should.

Providing an easy to access meal for free will ensure a much smaller number slip through the net

129Vince Watch - Page 5 Empty Re: Vince Watch on Thu Oct 29 2020, 14:21

Ten Bobsworth


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Anyone any ideas how 'Marcus soon heard Fareshare's call for support'?


'Heard it through the grapevine'? Marvin might have but Marcus? I don't think so.


I could be completely wrong but I'm getting this Man U PR thing coming to mind. Don't they just love to show what a really public-spirited and caring club they really are and always have been?


But who rung who first, or does it matter?

130Vince Watch - Page 5 Empty Re: Vince Watch on Thu Oct 29 2020, 14:26

T.R.O.Y.


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
A charity is getting additional support. PR exercise or not, see if you can try really hard to see the bright side Bobby.

131Vince Watch - Page 5 Empty Re: Vince Watch on Thu Oct 29 2020, 14:52

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@BoltonTillIDie wrote:It would probably be difficult for the social services to identify any hungry children who are not being looked after as they should.

Providing an easy to access meal for free will ensure a much smaller number slip through the net

I used to work in Education at one part of my career and head teachers used to (probably still do) identify child neglect from classroom/school environment behaviour and one of their red flags to look out for was children constantly being hungry.

They informed Social Services Child Welfare and the child's safety then become an issue to be examined and dealt with.

Open ended feeding of children with FSM removes that window of identifying and following up the safety of the child.

I imagine many family's were already known to Social Services in the first place but it did pick up on those family's who were new to the area and even genuine family's who had fallen on hard times for some reason or other 'mum' no longer could adequately cope, needed help, but didn't want to (or know how to) ask for it.

As I've said feeding a child is just one part of child safety, if the parent/guardian is not feeding the child then what else are they doing to them, physical, mental, sexual abuse perhaps?

Sadly not all parents/guardians put the child's welfare and safety first and foremost.

132Vince Watch - Page 5 Empty Re: Vince Watch on Thu Oct 29 2020, 15:19

T.R.O.Y.


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
@Sluffy wrote:Open ended feeding of children with FSM removes that window of identifying and following up the safety of the child.

No it doesn't, that exact same process of identifying vulnerable children remains in place.

133Vince Watch - Page 5 Empty Re: Vince Watch on Thu Oct 29 2020, 15:29

karlypants

karlypants
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I've just had a look and Job seekers allowance is £74.35 for a single person. I believe this is per week.

I have no idea if a person claiming this can get any other benefit if having kids so how you would expert someone to live on that whilst looking for a job anyway without kids is unbelievable.

Gas, electric, food and water would come to a lot more than this.

134Vince Watch - Page 5 Empty Re: Vince Watch on Thu Oct 29 2020, 15:38

karlypants

karlypants
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Sluffy wrote:

As I've said feeding a child is just one part of child safety, if the parent/guardian is not feeding the child then what else are they doing to them, physical, mental, sexual abuse perhaps?

Do you seriously think this?

135Vince Watch - Page 5 Empty Re: Vince Watch on Thu Oct 29 2020, 15:56

Natasha Whittam


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Sluffy wrote:As I've said feeding a child is just one part of child safety, if the parent/guardian is not feeding the child then what else are they doing to them, physical, mental, sexual abuse perhaps?

Sadly not all parents/guardians put the child's welfare and safety first and foremost.

:facepalm:

136Vince Watch - Page 5 Empty Re: Vince Watch on Thu Oct 29 2020, 16:05

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:
@Sluffy wrote:Open ended feeding of children with FSM removes that window of identifying and following up the safety of the child.

No it doesn't, that exact same process of identifying vulnerable children remains in place.

If the child is automatically fed with FSM then how does the school identify they were ever hungry in the first place?

And I didn't say identifying children not being fed was the only means of identifying child neglect, it just removes one of the means of picking it up.

Also if FSM are provided through the week to feed kids who are being neglected then who feeds them at the weekends?

The individual child should be the focus and not a mass feeding system that may well mask one of the obvious signs of them being neglected.

Anyway it doesn't matter what I think, more importantly is what the Child Welfare professionals think/recommend - the following is from The Department of Education report entitled Missed opportunities: indicators of neglect – what is ignored, why, and what can be done? (Nov, 2014)

Food and feeding

Food and feeding offers clues to the availability of resources in the home. For example if there is no food in the fridge, why is this the case? Is lack of food a temporary or a regular problem? In some circumstances young children who are losing weight may be denied food when cupboards are plentifully stocked, for example in the case of Daniel Pelka (Lock 2013). Food and feeding provides powerful clues to parent-child interaction and parents’ responsiveness to a child’s basic emotional needs. There are complex and differing reasons why parents may not be nurturing their child. Early difficulties in feeding
could be linked, initially, with the baby’s prematurity and subsequent complex health needs. In cases of faltering growth (for all infants and children and not just those with complex health needs) it is important not to treat the issue as a mechanical feeding problem but rather to raise questions about emotional development, attachment and the parent-child relationship.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/379747/RR404_-_Indicators_of_neglect_missed_opportunities.pdf

The bit I've highlighted is basically my whole point namely it is not the mechanical feeding process - FSM - per se but what is behind what the reason is for a child not to be fed by their parent/guardian.

FSM is focusing solely on the process/the mechanical feeding problem and NOT the parent-child relationship in any way.



137Vince Watch - Page 5 Empty Re: Vince Watch on Thu Oct 29 2020, 16:06

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@karlypants wrote:
@Sluffy wrote:

As I've said feeding a child is just one part of child safety, if the parent/guardian is not feeding the child then what else are they doing to them, physical, mental, sexual abuse perhaps?

Do you seriously think this?

See the link to the report I posted above.

Also -

Daniel Pelka was a four-year boy from the West Midlands who died in March 2012 from an acute head injury. In August 2013, Daniel's mother and stepfather were convicted of murder and sentenced to 30 years in prison. For at least six months before his death, Daniel suffered from starvation, neglect and physical abuse.

https://www.safeguardinginschools.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Daniel-Pelka-Special-Report.pdf



Last edited by Sluffy on Thu Oct 29 2020, 16:12; edited 1 time in total

138Vince Watch - Page 5 Empty Re: Vince Watch on Thu Oct 29 2020, 16:09

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I came across a young woman in town last year, toddler in tow, outside a local food bank. She was quietly sobbing. Asking if she was ok, she said she wanted to go inside, but felt humiliated. She'd never had to resort to a food bank before, and her pain was obvious.
I went in with her to give her some confidence, and the very kind people who volunteer at the bank were very nice, making sure she felt supported.
I heard later that she was back in work, and was volunteering at that very same food bank.
It's easy to point the finger from the well fed outside, but I wasn't aware of any BMW's, or e-scooters on show.
Of course there are people screwing the system, and at both ends of the scale, but being unable to feed your kids on an insufficient income is real.

139Vince Watch - Page 5 Empty Re: Vince Watch on Thu Oct 29 2020, 16:29

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@boltonbonce wrote:I came across a young woman in town last year, toddler in tow, outside a local food bank. She was quietly sobbing. Asking if she was ok, she said she wanted to go inside, but felt humiliated. She'd never had to resort to a food bank before, and her pain was obvious.
I went in with her to give her some confidence, and the very kind people who volunteer at the bank were very nice, making sure she felt supported.
I heard later that she was back in work, and was volunteering at that very same food bank.
It's easy to point the finger from the well fed outside, but I wasn't aware of any BMW's, or e-scooters on show.
Of course there are people screwing the system, and at both ends of the scale, but being unable to feed your kids on an insufficient income is real.

You think this young woman was sending her child out to school/play group unfed?

From what you say I would doubt it and being at a foodbank may be humiliating to some but it is a safety net that is in place to prevent people being hungry.

Sounds to me this woman wasn't abusing the system as in the way I've seen it to be first hand - with the 4x4's and e-scooters.

I live in the real world where good and bad exists and not necessarily in equal measure.

Not some socialist idealistic one that will never happen.

I see your hero's been in denial today -

Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer has suspended Jeremy Corbyn from the party over his reaction to a highly critical report on anti-Semitism.

The human rights watchdog found Labour responsible for "unlawful" harassment and discrimination during Mr Corbyn's years in charge of the party.

But Mr Corbyn later said the scale of anti-Semitism within Labour had been "dramatically overstated" by opponents.

Labour said he was being suspended "for a failure to retract" his words.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54730425

140Vince Watch - Page 5 Empty Re: Vince Watch on Thu Oct 29 2020, 16:39

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I myself have been threatened with action from the Labour party. My crime?

Describing Benjamin Netanyahu as a crook. I wasn't being anti semitic, simply stating my view.

Sadly, there's a culture at large within the party, that deems anyone critical of the Israeli regime a Jew hater.
Hating Trump is fine though. Not a dickie bird out of them when I called the Donald a crook.

141Vince Watch - Page 5 Empty Re: Vince Watch on Thu Oct 29 2020, 18:01

T.R.O.Y.


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
What is it your advocating with FSM Sluffy? Your problems with it are now:

- makes it more difficult to spot a child who is going hungry, because they’re well fed.
- they’ll be hungry over weekends - so might as well be hungry all week?

You quote a study as if that’s suggesting removing FSMs is a solution for resolving child neglect - do you seriously believe this?

142Vince Watch - Page 5 Empty Re: Vince Watch on Thu Oct 29 2020, 18:15

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:What is it your advocating with FSM Sluffy? Your problems with it are now:

- makes it more difficult to spot a child who is going hungry, because they’re well fed.
- they’ll be hungry over weekends - so might as well be hungry all week?

You quote a study as if that’s suggesting removing FSMs is a solution for resolving child neglect - do you seriously believe this?

???

Haven't a clue what you are on about?

No I never said or even hinted that removing FSM is a solution for child neglect - I've no idea where you got that from?

Never said anything about not bothering to feed a hungry child whether it at the weekend or a week day.

The study is from the DoE and is entitled Missed opportunities: indicators of neglect – what is ignored, why, and what can be done?  It is an official government document about indicators of neglect one of which in respect of food and feeding of children being NOT to treat the issue as a mechanical feeding problem (ie something that can be fixed by FSM for instance) but one to " to raise questions about emotional development, attachment and the parent-child relationship".

That's what the professional experts in child welfare and safety say.

If you disagree go argue with them not me!

143Vince Watch - Page 5 Empty Re: Vince Watch on Fri Oct 30 2020, 07:50

Ten Bobsworth


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Had another chat with my son yesterday. He was brought up as the only Bolton supporter in his school but he's had his own business since soon after he left school.

Times though are hard. One of his  main suppliers went to the wall last month and most of his other suppliers are really struggling because they cannot get the materials they need through the pandemic. Its looking like his business will have to close too.

Meanwhile Saint Marcus of Rashford, not content with piling up a cash mountain in his image rights company aided by a generous tax regime, dodges the personal tax on the money he has taken out. 

The useless media, blinded by the light of his halo, don't notice whilst an adoring public don't know and don't care when they are being taken for a ride. He's still only a young man though and has got some way to go before he catches up with Ecotricity's owner in the Tax Dodgers Stakes.

Comes from a good stable young Marcus!!!!

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tax-man-targets-manchester-united-in-image-rights-crackdown-vgqvwt7kq

144Vince Watch - Page 5 Empty Re: Vince Watch on Fri Oct 30 2020, 08:57

T.R.O.Y.


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Sounds bad Ten Bob, but I will of course need to review your sons accounts for the last 15 years before I can offer any sympathy.

145Vince Watch - Page 5 Empty Re: Vince Watch on Fri Oct 30 2020, 08:59

T.R.O.Y.


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
@Sluffy wrote:

???

Haven't a clue what you are on about?

No I never said or even hinted that removing FSM is a solution for child neglect - I've no idea where you got that from?

Never said anything about not bothering to feed a hungry child whether it at the weekend or a week day.

The study is from the DoE and is entitled Missed opportunities: indicators of neglect – what is ignored, why, and what can be done?  It is an official government document about indicators of neglect one of which in respect of food and feeding of children being NOT to treat the issue as a mechanical feeding problem (ie something that can be fixed by FSM for instance) but one to " to raise questions about emotional development, attachment and the parent-child relationship".

That's what the professional experts in child welfare and safety say.

If you disagree go argue with them not me!

Sluffy, I don’t understand what it is your advocating here? What is your position and how does that report support it?

146Vince Watch - Page 5 Empty Re: Vince Watch on Fri Oct 30 2020, 09:59

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:
@Sluffy wrote:

???

Haven't a clue what you are on about?

No I never said or even hinted that removing FSM is a solution for child neglect - I've no idea where you got that from?

Never said anything about not bothering to feed a hungry child whether it at the weekend or a week day.

The study is from the DoE and is entitled Missed opportunities: indicators of neglect – what is ignored, why, and what can be done?  It is an official government document about indicators of neglect one of which in respect of food and feeding of children being NOT to treat the issue as a mechanical feeding problem (ie something that can be fixed by FSM for instance) but one to " to raise questions about emotional development, attachment and the parent-child relationship".

That's what the professional experts in child welfare and safety say.

If you disagree go argue with them not me!

Sluffy, I don’t understand what it is your advocating here? What is your position and how does that report support it?

I've explained my position clearly enough (several times now) and even linked to an official government report from the Department of Education saying exactly the same thing.

If you can't understand what I'm saying (or more likely pretending not to) then that's your problem not mine.

147Vince Watch - Page 5 Empty Re: Vince Watch on Fri Oct 30 2020, 10:05

T.R.O.Y.


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
You've linked to a government document about indicators of neglect. How that relates to FSM's is completely unclear, as is your position on them.

148Vince Watch - Page 5 Empty Re: Vince Watch on Fri Oct 30 2020, 10:12

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@boltonbonce wrote:I myself have been threatened with action from the Labour party. My crime?

Describing Benjamin Netanyahu as a crook. I wasn't being anti semitic, simply stating my view.

Sadly, there's a culture at large within the party, that deems anyone critical of the Israeli regime a Jew hater.
Hating Trump is fine though. Not a dickie bird out of them when I called the Donald a crook.
Think I mentioned it a year or two ago, but a senior Jewish Council whose name eludes me defined anti-semitism in order to provide clarity and included in that definition were criticisms of the State of Israel - effectively stating that the State and the religion are inseparable.
Accordingly any criticism of Israel, the Israeli Government, their actions etc etc are deemed as anti-semitic under their definition.

149Vince Watch - Page 5 Empty Re: Vince Watch on Fri Oct 30 2020, 10:14

Ten Bobsworth


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Best thing to do, Sluffy, is ignore him.

Anyway our hero's back in the news today with his diamonds from the sky. Its all in the Guardian so it must be kosher.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/oct/30/ecotricity-founder-to-grow-diamonds-made-entirely-from-the-sky

150Vince Watch - Page 5 Empty Re: Vince Watch on Fri Oct 30 2020, 10:16

T.R.O.Y.


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
@Ten Bobsworth wrote:Best thing to do, Sluffy, is ignore him.

Anyway our hero's back in the news today with his diamonds from the sky. Its all in the Guardian so it must be kosher.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/oct/30/ecotricity-founder-to-grow-diamonds-made-entirely-from-the-sky

Does Sluffy want to remove FSMs or keep them? That’s all I’m trying to understand.

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