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Black Lives Matter

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211Black Lives Matter - Page 8 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Fri Jul 03 2020, 14:54

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@boltonbonce wrote:Sluffy, there's a difference between being critical of Israeli policies, and being 'anti Jewish', which I think you need to acknowledge.

I do acknowledge that, I've not said otherwise have I?

For the record I believe that at the very least Israel should revert back to its 1947 boarders and that everyone should then live in peace and harmony but we all know that is never going to happen.

All this has it's roots in religion and politics (both of which can be used as shorthand for 'power') - and as I have often said, the world would be better off without both - but that isn't going to happen either.

Until someone can come up with a solution to solve the Palestine/Israel conundrum to the satisfaction of all concerned then nothing you can do or say will help matters much.



212Black Lives Matter - Page 8 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Fri Jul 03 2020, 15:06

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@boltonbonce wrote:Sluffy, there's a difference between being critical of Israeli policies, and being 'anti Jewish', which I think you need to acknowledge.
Just to be pedantic for a moment, I don't believe there is a difference as I remember reading that the overarching Jewish law body whose name eludes me ATM ruled that criticism of the state of Israel is anti-semitic. But it's only a small number of Jews who consider it so.

213Black Lives Matter - Page 8 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Fri Jul 03 2020, 19:33

T.R.O.Y.


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
@Sluffy wrote:

I don't disagree but at the end of the day if you've organised and recognised as such and validated by the people who started this whole movement in the first place, then that's the place where people focus on.

Well, not quite Sluff - that's just what the right have decided to focus on - whether intentionally or not it's detracted from the real issue, and supporters of BLM are still focussed on achieving equality.

@Sluffy wrote:Your initial jab at me with the ST analogy is actually looking more relevant by the day in that when there is an issue at the BWFC who do the the media and authorities turn to to hear the opinions and desire of the fan base but non other than them!  

To be clear, my mentioning of the ST was not a jab - just making a point that just because a group calls itself something doesn't make it so. Thanks for recognising it's relevance, I think it proves my point.


Anyway, hopefully this thread can return to the real issue of inequality in Britain.

214Black Lives Matter - Page 8 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Fri Jul 03 2020, 19:41

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:Well, not quite Sluff  

Pet names now?

You've changed.

215Black Lives Matter - Page 8 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Fri Jul 03 2020, 19:46

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson
We call you Nat don't we? Very Happy

216Black Lives Matter - Page 8 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Fri Jul 03 2020, 20:03

T.R.O.Y.


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
@Natasha Whittam wrote:

Pet names now?

You've changed.

You're right, I'm going soft trying to keep people happy on here - it's just not right.

Fuck you all.

217Black Lives Matter - Page 8 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Fri Jul 03 2020, 21:38

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@Natasha Whittam wrote:
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:Well, not quite Sluff  

Pet names now?

You've changed.

T.R.O. and me get along just fine now.

218Black Lives Matter - Page 8 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Fri Jul 03 2020, 22:07

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:

You're right, I'm going soft trying to keep people happy on here - it's just not right.

Fuck you all.
Very Happy

219Black Lives Matter - Page 8 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Sat Jul 04 2020, 00:22

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:

You're right, I'm going soft trying to keep people happy on here - it's just not right.

Fuck you all.
You will always make me happy TROJAN.

220Black Lives Matter - Page 8 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Sat Jul 04 2020, 13:44

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson
TROY, are you over your tizzy now ? Good to see that your a real person under that cool and measured facade  Very Happy

221Black Lives Matter - Page 8 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Sun Jul 05 2020, 13:08

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
What a voice. In every sense of the word.

222Black Lives Matter - Page 8 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Sun Jul 05 2020, 13:31

sunlight

sunlight
Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
@boltonbonce wrote:What a voice. In every sense of the word.
Wow!  What a character he was. He took them all on. I havent heard of him before. I shall read his Wiki. He was very intelligent. I love the bit where he said he is a Lawyer Very Happy  What a wonderful person.

223Black Lives Matter - Page 8 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Sun Jul 05 2020, 17:52

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:
@Sluffy wrote:

I don't disagree but at the end of the day if you've organised and recognised as such and validated by the people who started this whole movement in the first place, then that's the place where people focus on.

Well, not quite Sluff - that's just what the right have decided to focus on - whether intentionally or not it's detracted from the real issue, and supporters of BLM are still focussed on achieving equality.

@Sluffy wrote:Your initial jab at me with the ST analogy is actually looking more relevant by the day in that when there is an issue at the BWFC who do the the media and authorities turn to to hear the opinions and desire of the fan base but non other than them!  

To be clear, my mentioning of the ST was not a jab - just making a point that just because a group calls itself something doesn't make it so. Thanks for recognising it's relevance, I think it proves my point.


Anyway, hopefully this thread can return to the real issue of inequality in Britain.

Well the F1 drivers have linked BLM to their political aims and refused to take the 'knee'.

Good on them I say.

I certainly wouldn't take the 'knee' myself for the same reasons AND because it feels you are compelled to do it and if you didn't you would be automatically presumed to be a racist by the vast majority.

The intention to not be judged on colour is right but I've not been happy that George Floyd has somehow been 'canonised' by much of the populous when as a person he was clearly no saint - imprisoned for armed robbery and drug offences and in the company of people trying to pay with fake money when he was killed and I'm certainly not happy about BLM political aims which they have not denied.

I think F1 has got it spot on and squirm with embarrassment at the start of every PL kick-off when the multi-million pound rich players are all are taking the knee for an organisation that wants to end capitalism and the millions they've earned from it.

How stupid of them is that???

Somebody's jumped on the bandwagon without looking at the destination its stated on the front of it where it is actually bound for!

They had their commendable 'Kick it Out' campaign already in existence and should have showed their solidarity by that means in just the same way F1 has done it in their way.

I certainly will bet that the PL will be taking the knee next season (although the players still might).


How will the drivers all show their support for anti-racism before the race? They will all wear T-shirts carrying the slogan ‘end racism’, but there is a question as to whether all will take a knee.

The drivers have discussed this in meetings of the Grand Prix Drivers’ Association, but while all are united in their abhorrence of racism, not all are comfortable with that particular gesture, because of the political complexities surrounding it and other related issues.

A GPDA statement said: "All 20 drivers stand united with their teams against racism and prejudice, at the same time embracing the principles of diversity, equality and inclusion and supporting F1's commitment to these.

"Together the drivers will all show their public support for this cause on Sunday ahead of the race, recognising and respecting that each individual has the freedom to show their support for ending racism in their own way and will be free to choose how to do this ahead of the race start on Sunday."

Black Lives Matter - Page 8 _113248146_f12

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/53299085

224Black Lives Matter - Page 8 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Sun Jul 05 2020, 18:26

T.R.O.Y.


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
@gloswhite wrote:TROY, are you over your tizzy now ? Good to see that your a real person under that cool and measured facade  Very Happy

Just my idea of a joke Glos, cool facade never broken my man  Cool

225Black Lives Matter - Page 8 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Sun Jul 05 2020, 18:27

T.R.O.Y.


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
@Sluffy wrote:I think F1 has got it spot on and squirm with embarrassment at the start of every PL kick-off when the multi-million pound rich players are all are taking the knee for an organisation that wants to end capitalism and the millions they've earned from it.

Have any footballers said they're taking the knee to end capitalism?

226Black Lives Matter - Page 8 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Sun Jul 05 2020, 19:13

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

227Black Lives Matter - Page 8 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Sun Jul 05 2020, 21:51

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:
@Sluffy wrote:I think F1 has got it spot on and squirm with embarrassment at the start of every PL kick-off when the multi-million pound rich players are all are taking the knee for an organisation that wants to end capitalism and the millions they've earned from it.

Have any footballers said they're taking the knee to end capitalism?

They're taking a knee for BLM - even have it emblazoned on the backs of their shirts. BLM's stated policy is to end capitalism!!!


Wouldn't it have been far easier to support show their support for anti-racism by doing what the F1 drivers did (apart from Hamilton!) who wore shirts with the slogan 'end racism' or even their own 'Kick it Out' slogan than to endorse an established movement with clear political objectives, one of which is to end capitalism?

I know if I was a PL footballer I'd be far more comfortable supporting a universal cause - to end racism - and not hitch my waggon to some group that's been going for a few years already has have clearly been influenced (maybe even led?) by activists with an agenda for direct action and the end of capitalism, which I certainly don't share.

Clearly most/all of the players have the right right intentions its just that they chosen to join the masses in immediately joining up to a movement they (and probably 99% of everyone else) simply haven't thought to check how they intend to achieve their aims - ie end capitalism, antisemitism and direct action.

I very much doubt most people want to go that route and I strongly suspect they wouldn't have received crowd funding of anything like £1m either.

Tbh I blame the PL, they should have been more on the ball about this and they already had their own, commendable, scheme in place anyway!

Also could you imagine if just one player didn't take the knee?

He'd be hounded out of the game by the fans.

Is it any wonder non of the players admit to being gay - even in the twenty-first century when its widely celebrated in all enlightened country's throughout the world!

I'd hazard a guess that there's probably much more than one or two of them taking the knee even though they oppose BLM stated aims, as it's the lesser of two evils by doing so then having the abuse/threats/violence/whatever of saying it wasn't for them!

Surely there's something clearly wrong when you are put such a position through no choice of your own?

Could you imagine if a referee didn't take the knee!

It's wrong - and two wrongs have never yet made a right.

The message is anti-racism.

Simply don't tie it in with a group with existing radical political aims.

The message is loud and strong enough to be heard on its own.

228Black Lives Matter - Page 8 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Sun Jul 05 2020, 22:21

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
Seems even Hamilton is beginning to see the conflict over BLM -

He also addressed the confusion between the slogan "Black Lives Matter", which he wore on a T-shirt before the race, and the political organisation of the same name which has caused controversy over the last week with tweets about Palestine and defunding the police.

Hamilton said: "Certain people are making it more political than it is and then there is UK Black Lives Matter that has spoken some more political issues.

"But the people at rallies and the people out there marching are fighting for one cause and that's for equality. It is not a political thing for them.

"When I wear the shirt, that is what I am supporting. I am not necessarily supporting the political movement. That is something completely different so it is important to try to keep them separate."


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/53302495


Seems simple to me, just refer to the movement universally as Anti-Racism and drop the BLM and the kneeling which have political issues attached to them.

That way there will be NO confusion.

229Black Lives Matter - Page 8 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Sun Jul 05 2020, 22:46

T.R.O.Y.


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
Yes Hamilton is exactly correct in what he’s saying, they need to be kept separate and (as I’ve told you) it’s all about equality.

It’s only people like you who seem to be confused and trying to push that angle. 

None of these sports stars taking a knee have said its to end capitalism, why are you more qualified to tell them what their gesture means?

230Black Lives Matter - Page 8 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Mon Jul 06 2020, 00:02

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:Yes Hamilton is exactly correct in what he’s saying, they need to be kept separate and (as I’ve told you) it’s all about equality.

It’s only people like you who seem to be confused and trying to push that angle. 

None of these sports stars taking a knee have said its to end capitalism, why are you more qualified to tell them what their gesture means?

Errr excuse me!

I'm the one who is saying they need to be separated completely from each other - that would end ALL the unnecessary confusion.

If its only people "like me" that seems 'confused' and pushing 'that angle' then why did one third of the F1 drivers REFUSE to take the knee and ALL bar Hamilton steered well clear of being in anyway associated with BLM???

Why have ex-players like Evra and Karl Henry been saying exactly the same as me?

Why has the Telegraph already done an article about it?

Premier League's naivety about Black Lives Matter has left good intentions mired in politics

A slogan, whose literal meaning should brook no argument, has become inextricably intertwined with more polarising organisation of same name

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2020/07/02/premier-leagues-naivety-black-lives-matter-has-left-good-intentions/

Funny, there seems to be an awful lot of people 'like me' - and growing bigger every day!

Oh look another one! -

Yet again, the hard-Left has infiltrated a protest movement and ruined it

It began with a tragic event that deserved protest; it ended sad and ludicrous, and predictable

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/07/04/black-lives-matter-yet-another-front-marxist-ideas-activists/

As for your last sentence, what does it even mean?

Are you that desperate to contrive bizarre arguments in order to deflect and defend the indefensible of your standpoint???

It's easy, all that needs to be done is to focus on the issue - anti-racism, by ditching the unnecessary linking of causes to existing radical political agendas and symbolic poses that have already been claimed by others for their different aims and purposes

Keep the message pure and unambiguous and don't lumber it with other peoples existing radical baggage.

It's not rocket science.

231Black Lives Matter - Page 8 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Mon Jul 06 2020, 07:30

T.R.O.Y.


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
Yes you’re so keen for the message not to get confused you ‘squirm’ whenever you see people take the knee - because that means anti-capitalism to you? Give over. If you’re so concerned about the confusion stop feeding it by banging on about anti-capitalism.

To me you just appear more concerned with distracting from an important message.

232Black Lives Matter - Page 8 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Mon Jul 06 2020, 09:15

Keegan

Keegan
Moderator
Moderator
I missed the part where a desire to be treated equally meant an end to capitalism. When did that happen?

https://forum.boltonnuts.co.uk

233Black Lives Matter - Page 8 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Mon Jul 06 2020, 09:41

T.R.O.Y.


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
@Keegan wrote:I missed the part where a desire to be treated equally meant an end to capitalism. When did that happen?
 
You’re right, it never happened. It’s just a right wing tactic to detract support from the real issue. Unfortunately it’s gained a small amount of traction in the UK.

234Black Lives Matter - Page 8 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Mon Jul 06 2020, 09:43

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I may be wrong but the footballers in this country are not taking the knee for political reasons.

Football is much more integrated within teams as we have players from all around the world in our leagues and i think, maybe naively some might say, that they do want to make a point about racism much like any other right minded person would do if they had the platform to do so.

235Black Lives Matter - Page 8 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Mon Jul 06 2020, 10:01

okocha

okocha
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Wise words, TROY, Keegan and Norpig....

236Black Lives Matter - Page 8 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Mon Jul 06 2020, 10:10

T.R.O.Y.


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
Ye spot on Pig, political statements are banned in football I hadn’t thought of that. Not that it needed to be any more clear what the message of taking a knee is.

237Black Lives Matter - Page 8 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Mon Jul 06 2020, 13:19

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@Keegan wrote:I missed the part where a desire to be treated equally meant an end to capitalism. When did that happen?

The official BLM chapter in the UK BLM uk have stated it is one of the their numerous organisations aims along with anti-Semitism.

https://twitter.com/ukblm

They've raised £1.1m from crowd funding in just over a month!!!

https://www.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund

People clearly don't understand that they are donating their money towards ending racism to an established organisation that as a vastly greater (and far wider) agenda than that.

Most people have absolutely no idea that their money they are giving for the cause will also be going to fund many other causes they do not want - such as an end to capitalism.

Seems simple to me that all you need to do is disassociate Anti Racism from all other political causes and existing gestures and keep the message pure.

There then can be NO confusion, no hidden agendas, as to its sole aim and therefore no 'right wing' tactic to detract from the real issue.

Exactly like F1 did (with the exception of Hamilton).

TROY is attempting to make out that it is only a tiny minority in this country who are 'confusing' the issue.  Well clearly that's not true as it is now on the world wide stage due to 30% of the F1 refusing to take the knee - and all those who didn't were non British and all from other countries!

Maybe Hamilton should do a little bit of research himself into Mercedes who he drives for and Hugo Boss who sponsors him and see if he is still keen to be taking their millions if he is so self-righteous as he is making himself out to be.

238Black Lives Matter - Page 8 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Mon Jul 06 2020, 15:23

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@Norpig wrote:I may be wrong but the footballers in this country are not taking the knee for political reasons.

Football is much more integrated within teams as we have players from all around the world in our leagues and i think, maybe naively some might say, that they do want to make a point about racism much like any other right minded person would do if they had the platform to do so.

They are not taking a knee for political reasons - I quite agree.

The problem is they are taking a knee to represent Black Lives Matter - they even play in shirts with BLM emblazoned on the back of them.

The issue is Black Lives Matter is an organisation that pre-existed what has happened since the murder of George Floyd AND already has an agenda that includes political objectives such as an end to capitalism and the Jews out of Palestine.

Now are the players taking a knee to end anti-racism or are they taking a knee to end anti-racism, to end capitalism and the Jews out out Palestine, etc, because they are doing so under the BLM banner, which have stated that those are amongst their organisations objectives.

Of course we know which it is.

So to do all of all those people just like you and I, who decide to support the footballers support of BLM and donate to the organisation in this country by giving to their crowd funding appeal but do they also have any idea that their money isn't solely going to go towards ending anti racism but ALSO to end capitalism, remove Jews from Palestine and a load more radical/extremist stuff too!

Would they still have donated if they had known that?

I think many wouldn't.

That's why it should be made abundantly clear that Anti Racism should be kept clear and pure from being attached to any group or gestures that already have their own aims and objectives to them that go well beyond anti racism does such as looking to end capitalism.

I honestly don't see why anybody would have any issue disagreeing with that?

Somebody at the PL agreed to the players and themselves standing together in unison with the BLM movement (for the best of intentions) BUT what they all failed to check out first was that the BLM organisation had political and social objectives far beyond anti-racism and which I would imagine a large majority of even the players would believe in - an end to capitalism in particular!!!

All the PL needed to do was to promote their own well established anti racism initiative - Kick it Out - have that emblazoned on the back of their shirts instead and non of the political 'baggage' from BLM and elsewhere could simply been avoided - exactly like F1 did (apart from Hamilton).

The PL simply got caught up in the moment and am sure they are privately regretting it now but are stuck with it for the remainder of the season.

I very much doubt the PL will be promoting BLM in any way next season.

I very much doubt also that any other sporting body about to commence again will associate themselves with BLM and instead follow along the same lines as F1 has done.



Last edited by Sluffy on Mon Jul 06 2020, 15:28; edited 1 time in total

239Black Lives Matter - Page 8 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Mon Jul 06 2020, 15:27

T.R.O.Y.


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
Seems most people are pretty clear on what BLM is and what taking the knee stands for. If you're confused by the message and don't want to, that's a shame - but it's entirely your choice and you're free to do what you want. 

Hopefully you can accept we are all free to show our support for equality however we wish and drop it, I don't really see the point in going round and round on this.

240Black Lives Matter - Page 8 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Mon Jul 06 2020, 15:37

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:Seems most people are pretty clear on what BLM is and what taking the knee stands for. If you're confused by the message and don't want to, that's a shame - but it's entirely your choice and you're free to do what you want. 

Hopefully you can accept we are all free to show our support for equality however we wish and drop it, I don't really see the point in going round and round on this.

I'm not confused at all.

I fully support the message that is intended.

I totally believe that many who have contributed to BLM uk crowd funding to the tune of £1,1m (and daily growing) have certainly been confused/misled(?) that message and the organisation they've contributed to are most certainly not one and the same thing!  

It is only a part of what their agenda is and let us be quite clear, that agenda is radical and extreme in some of its stated aims such as bringing down capitalism.

Keep the message of Anti Racism clear and pure and away from pre-existing groups, organisations and gestures and then there can't be any confusion from anyone can there.

That's all I'm saying.

And you know it is too!

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