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Black Lives Matter

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31Black Lives Matter - Page 2 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Wed Jun 10 2020, 23:58

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:
@gloswhite wrote:If references are removed from aspects of our past lives, be it statues, monuments, or writings, and then not referred to, are you not deleting history for the upcoming generations?

I think the key thing here is that nobody has suggested writings should be deleted - that would be abhorrent. 

Remove celebrations of racists, put them in museums or replace them with information about the vast damage they did.

This country caused untold damage across the world through the empire, it’s finally time we recognise that.

Colston's statue was erected in respect of his philanthropy not as a celebration of being a racist.

It seems to me that perhaps his statue should have been removed and put somewhere more relevant and in line with modern day thinking of him, perhaps the Bristol museum?

Fwiw the statue was made almost 200 years after his death by the Victorians of Bristol, recognising his philanthropy - no doubt the same Victorians sending children up chimneys and down the mines and sending people to the poor house.

The point everyone seems to have missed is that in the context of the times they lived, no one knew any better - it was the norm - Colston made his money from slavery and the Victorians sent little (white) boys and girls to work in dangerous and life threatening conditions, to earn them their millions.

We are much better educated now, we know better - they at the time didn't.

I think it is wrong to judge them by our modern day values - they didn't 'do' the things they did knowing them to be wrong, they did them because that's what people did at that time.

When I was a lad everybody smoked, cars ran on leaded petrol and they put asbestos in schools and hospitals to stop fires - all that's changed now because we know better.

No doubt in years to come, people will look back and protest about some of the things we're doing now, thinking they were the right things to be doing - but clearly in the fullness of time and with better learning and education they prove not to be.  That's how life and society progresses.

Colston was making his money before Isaac Newton apple had hit him on the head - that's how far back we are going!

Yes he made his money from slavery but he gave plenty to the poor and needy of Bristol - and that's why he was remembered and had a statue made to honour him, and not because he was some sort of an racist icon or something.

350 years later perhaps it was time to be more sensitive to how the world now views things but where do you draw the line?  Slaves built the pyramids around 5,000 years ago - should we knock those down too?

People should be judged and held to account in their own times and not century's later - everybody is wiser in retrospect - and to my mind the pulling down of Colston's statue was to make a statement to this generation here and now and not as a condemnation of something that happened when Isaac Newton  was dodging apples from falling on his head.

32Black Lives Matter - Page 2 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 11 2020, 04:49

finlaymcdanger

finlaymcdanger
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
Last week I read that Colston's company was responsible for the deaths of 20 thousand slaves during transportation to the Caribbean.

Your claim that 'no one knew any better' and 'it was the norm' back then is utter bullshit, Sluffy.

Philanthropy my ass. It's called fucking genocide!

33Black Lives Matter - Page 2 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 11 2020, 06:53

T.R.O.Y.


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
Oh right Germany should have left all the Nazi bits up then, shouldn’t judge them really products of their own time and all that. They just didn’t know any better.

34Black Lives Matter - Page 2 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 11 2020, 08:25

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I don't think that the people with statues who were associated with slavery need to be written out of history but there shouldn't be statues of them up now.

Better education of what went on during the slavery era needs to happen so future generations are aware of what went on.

35Black Lives Matter - Page 2 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 11 2020, 09:20

okocha

okocha
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Look at it from the point of view of a black person having to walk past a statue glorifying a slave-trader every day, and, at the same time, experiencing disproportionate amounts of stop-and-search in their daily lives. Then they see our leading cabinet members and Trump using language that does nothing to calm matters.

It's a recipe for heightened emotions and resentment that will inevitably lead to trouble when enough oppressed and disadvantaged people come together, as they so much more easily can these days.The demonstrations have been remarkably restrained overall, with just a few pockets of unacceptable violence picked up and emphasised by our less responsible media outlets.

Many of the protesters have included deeply concerned white citizens or university students and academics with a social conscience. It's reassuring that apologies have come from some of our star entertainers who've had a good look at themselves. If only our government ministers could also express sincere apologies and empathy, perhaps feelings would not rise so high in our multi-cultural society.

36Black Lives Matter - Page 2 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 11 2020, 09:32

okocha

okocha
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
I don't believe that "no one knew better". The human conscience has always existed. We all instinctively know right from wrong.

What slave-traders did know was that they could take advantage and exploit the disadvantaged for huge personal profit. Perhaps their subsequent philanthropy was conscience-driven??

37Black Lives Matter - Page 2 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 11 2020, 10:51

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Jimmy Savile also made a lot of money for charity. Should we now replace the plaque on his old house in Scarborough? Was removing it trying to delete history?

38Black Lives Matter - Page 2 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 11 2020, 11:45

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@finlaymcdanger wrote:Last week I read that Colston's company was responsible for the deaths of 20 thousand slaves during transportation to the Caribbean.

Your claim that 'no one knew any better' and 'it was the norm' back then is utter bullshit, Sluffy.

Philanthropy my ass. It's called fucking genocide!

@okocha wrote:I don't believe that "no one knew better". The human conscience has always existed. We all instinctively know right from wrong.

What slave-traders did know was that they could take advantage and exploit the disadvantaged for huge personal profit. Perhaps their subsequent philanthropy was conscience-driven??

No we don't.

All we know is that our bodies are hard wired over countless years of evolution to survive and whatever common values we are taught in the community we inhabit.

We are still basically animals under a thin veneer of civilisation that we developed in recent years.  Look at the atrocities 'ethnic cleansing' in what was Yugoslavia in the mid 1990's (Bosnian War) and more recently just a few years ago by IS in Syria and Iraq.  Seems that it might even still be going on in Myanmar with the Rohingya's.  The veneer is still very thin at times.

Do you think those people, their communities and their country's didn't want it to happen - of course they did.

Slavery has been going on since the year dot and we still have it today 'modern slavery' as it is termed.

The Atlantic slave trade as we are talking about started in 1526 apparently and only started to become 'questionable' in the 1770's, over 250 years later.

I would say 250 uninterrupted years of doing something was considered the 'norm' rather than the exception, wouldn't you?

We all know it to have been wrong now - but it clearly was not an issue to most/all back in those years.

Colston lived from 1636 to 1721, so was born when slave trading had been going for 100 years and died 50 years before anyone started to think it wasn't right - so why would anyone think he was doing anything wrong at that time?

I'm not defending Colston or anyone else for that matter, merely saying they were a product of their time and should be judged as such in that context and not retrospectively.

George Washington was a slave owner, do people think he was a racist and should have is Mount Rushmore 'statue' blown up?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington_and_slavery

Andrew Jackson owned 200 slaves and his head is on twenty dollar notes, are people burning them - are you Fin?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_presidents_of_the_United_States_who_owned_slaves

Of course we all know better now but only because we've become more civilised and enlightened over the last few of hundred years or so.

Let's not forget though who enslaved all the African's in the first place for the likes of Colston to buy and transport them to the Americas because it wasn't us 'whites', it was in fact their fellow African 'brothers'.

Many nations such as the Ashanti of present-day Ghana and the Yoruba of present-day Nigeria were involved in slave-trading. Groups such as the Imbangala of Angola and the Nyamwezi of Tanzania would serve as intermediaries or roving bands, waging war on African states to capture people for export as slaves. Historians John Thornton and Linda Heywood of Boston University have estimated that of the Africans captured and then sold as slaves to the New World in the Atlantic slave trade, around 90% were enslaved by fellow Africans who sold them to European traders.   Henry Louis Gates, the Harvard Chair of African and African American Studies, has stated that "without complex business partnerships between African elites and European traders and commercial agents, the slave trade to the New World would have been impossible, at least on the scale it occurred".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Africa

It simply was how it was at the time and should be judged in that context.

39Black Lives Matter - Page 2 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 11 2020, 11:48

T.R.O.Y.


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
@karlypants wrote:All will happen now is that the white people will start to kick off back against the blacks and then we will have massive unrest.

The trouble is that we are not a racist country and very tolerant in my opinion but people will fight back because of this and racism will now start again due to the rioting and damage to the statues.

It's coming...

Personally think a race war is just a wet dream of the far right. Hardly been much in the way of counter protests have there? I think all reasonably minded people are on a similar track with this. Nobody condones violence, and fortunately there hasn’t been much. What’s good is that the message is resonating and conversations are developing as to what needs to change.

40Black Lives Matter - Page 2 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 11 2020, 11:58

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson
@Sluffy wrote:



No we don't.

All we know is that our bodies are hard wired over countless years of evolution to survive and whatever common values we are taught in the community we inhabit.

We are still basically animals under a thin veneer of civilisation that we developed in recent years.  Look at the atrocities 'ethnic cleansing' in what was Yugoslavia in the mid 1990's (Bosnian War) and more recently just a few years ago by IS in Syria and Iraq.  Seems that it might even still be going on in Myanmar with the Rohingya's.  The veneer is still very thin at times.

Do you think those people, their communities and their country's didn't want it to happen - of course they did.

Slavery has been going on since the year dot and we still have it today 'modern slavery' as it is termed.

The Atlantic slave trade as we are talking about started in 1526 apparently and only started to become 'questionable' in the 1770's, over 250 years later.

I would say 250 uninterrupted years of doing something was considered the 'norm' rather than the exception, wouldn't you?

We all know it to have been wrong now - but it clearly was not an issue to most/all back in those years.

Colston lived from 1636 to 1721, so was born when slave trading had been going for 100 years and died 50 years before anyone started to think it wasn't right - so why would anyone think he was doing anything wrong at that time?

I'm not defending Colston or anyone else for that matter, merely saying they were a product of their time and should be judged as such in that context and not retrospectively.

George Washington was a slave owner, do people think he was a racist and should have his Mount Rushmore 'statue' blown up?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington_and_slavery

Andrew Jackson owned 200 slaves and his head is on twenty dollar notes, are people burning them - are you Fin?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_presidents_of_the_United_States_who_owned_slaves

Of course we all know better now but only because we've become more civilised and enlightened over the last few of hundred years or so.

Let's not forget though who enslaved all the African's in the first place for the likes of Colston to buy and transport them to the Americas because it wasn't us 'whites', it was in fact their fellow African 'brothers'.

Many nations such as the Ashanti of present-day Ghana and the Yoruba of present-day Nigeria were involved in slave-trading. Groups such as the Imbangala of Angola and the Nyamwezi of Tanzania would serve as intermediaries or roving bands, waging war on African states to capture people for export as slaves. Historians John Thornton and Linda Heywood of Boston University have estimated that of the Africans captured and then sold as slaves to the New World in the Atlantic slave trade, around 90% were enslaved by fellow Africans who sold them to European traders.   Henry Louis Gates, the Harvard Chair of African and African American Studies, has stated that "without complex business partnerships between African elites and European traders and commercial agents, the slave trade to the New World would have been impossible, at least on the scale it occurred".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Africa

It simply was how it was at the time and should be judged in that context.
An excellent piece Sluffy, especially the highlighting of the African's own involvement in the slave trade, something not a lot of people are probably aware of. I wasn't.

41Black Lives Matter - Page 2 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 11 2020, 11:58

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:Oh right Germany should have left all the Nazi bits up then, shouldn’t judge them really products of their own time and all that. They just didn’t know any better.

Eh???

Didn't you read what I wrote?

@Sluffy wrote:
People should be judged and held to account in their own times and not century's later...

The world fought a war against Hitler at that time.

He was judged by his peers at the time and half the world went on to fight a war to stop Nazism/fascism and dismantle then and there the icon's to that ideology.

The world at that time did hold Hitler and the Nazi's to account and did something about it.



42Black Lives Matter - Page 2 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 11 2020, 12:06

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:

Personally think a race war is just a wet dream of the far right. Hardly been much in the way of counter protests have there? I think all reasonably minded people are on a similar track with this. Nobody condones violence, and fortunately there hasn’t been much. What’s good is that the message is resonating and conversations are developing as to what needs to change.
I doubt a race war is imminent TROY. There have been no counter-protests because the vast majority of people realise that the protesters are right in calling out racism. I wouldn't say nobody condones violence, and I think you may well see instances, hopefully few, when protesters frustration comes to the fore, and the opposite side responds.
This should be taken carefully, and silly demands shouldn't have knee-jerk reactions.
I see that the statue of Baden Powell was removed 'temporarily' in Brighton. What is the point of that I wonder?
Also, I wonder if Raffles statues, icons, etc, will be pulled down and destroyed in Singapore. Its all part of Imperialism, after all?

43Black Lives Matter - Page 2 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 11 2020, 12:30

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@boltonbonce wrote:Jimmy Savile also made a lot of money for charity. Should we now replace the plaque on his old house in Scarborough? Was removing it trying to delete history?

I would have thought you'd be keeping a low profile on this thread after what you had posted recently, even if you had meant it in fun.

@boltonbonce wrote:Nuts was much more fun when Breadman, Scott, AD, Magoo, Martin, Boggers, Nat et al, were running riot, and the loss of many of those mentioned has had a detrimental effect.
We've become po faced in the extreme, and it's not a good look. Racism, sexism, ageism, bring it on.
If horses are welcome, everyone should be.

Maybe now you get my point that you should be judged at the time and within the context existing at that time and not retrospectively when peoples perspective on what has been said or done, have changed.

Still think we should be making jokes about racism because the sites become too po faced?

Of course you don't and I doubt most who have done what they did at the time wouldn't go back and change things knowing what they know NOW to have been wrong or misguided, if they had the chance.  

You can't judge people century's after they did what they did - the world and its values have changed massively since then.

44Black Lives Matter - Page 2 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 11 2020, 12:33

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Please refresh my memory about what I posted in fun that was so offensive.

45Black Lives Matter - Page 2 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 11 2020, 12:36

T.R.O.Y.


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
We can’t judge someone for killing 20,000 people. I know you argue for the sake of it, but this is a push even by your standards Sluffy.

46Black Lives Matter - Page 2 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 11 2020, 13:23

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:We can’t judge someone for killing 20,000 people. I know you argue for the sake of it, but this is a push even by your standards Sluffy.

You can judge who you like for whatever you want.

The slave trade of which we are talking about lasted for around 250 years, did you know the Arab slave trade centred from Africa to India including the middle east and central Asia lasted for a thousand years and only as recently as 1962 (within my lifetime) Saudi Arabia finally stopped slavery and released the estimated 300,000 people they had as slaves.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/slavery_8.shtml

To put that into some perspective we, Britain, voted to abolish slavery in 1807, over 250 years earlier.

Colston was simply a product of his time, slap bang in the middle period of the 250 year Atlantic slave trade where it was seen to be normal and well practiced behaviour at the time.

Abhorrent now, but normal back then.

And you do make me laugh trying to flip that I'm the argumentative one, when we all know it's you!

Funny how you have been practically non existent on the forum when I've not been posting and straight on my case when I occasionally have.

I guess you mustn't be getting your kicks elsewhere then!

I can't be arsed with the trolling games anymore, I'm off again.

Toodle pip.

47Black Lives Matter - Page 2 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 11 2020, 13:25

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
In out in out shake it all about  Laughing

48Black Lives Matter - Page 2 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 11 2020, 13:33

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Sluffy wrote:Funny how you have been practically non existent on the forum when I've not been posting and straight on my case when I occasionally have.


Could it be sluffy, KP & TROY are the same person?

Am I KP? Am I talking to myself?

49Black Lives Matter - Page 2 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 11 2020, 13:35

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@boltonbonce wrote:Please refresh my memory about what I posted in fun that was so offensive.
Still waiting.

50Black Lives Matter - Page 2 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 11 2020, 13:58

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
We all know you were being sarcastic Boncey, let him flounce off again.

51Black Lives Matter - Page 2 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 11 2020, 14:04

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
Bonce I think the answer is at post 43 where you are quoted as saying:

Nuts was much more fun when Breadman, Scott, AD, Magoo, Martin, Boggers, Nat et al, were running riot, and the loss of many of those mentioned has had a detrimental effect.
We've become po faced in the extreme, and it's not a good look. Racism, sexism, ageism, bring it on.



Last edited by xmiles on Thu Jun 11 2020, 14:05; edited 1 time in total

52Black Lives Matter - Page 2 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 11 2020, 14:04

okocha

okocha
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Is conscience innate? Sluffy, please note:- If you do some research or have studied it at university, you find that opinion has long been divided, but a growing majority of researchers now believe that babies are born wth an innate sense of morality, and while parents can help develop a belief system in babies, they don't create one.

53Black Lives Matter - Page 2 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 11 2020, 14:08

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
I have certainly seen research evidence that young infants have a sense of fairness, which you could argue is a sense of right and wrong. I don't know that that is the same thing as having a conscience though.

54Black Lives Matter - Page 2 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 11 2020, 14:26

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@xmiles wrote:Bonce I think the answer is at post 43 where you are quoted as saying:

Nuts was much more fun when Breadman, Scott, AD, Magoo, Martin, Boggers, Nat et al, were running riot, and the loss of many of those mentioned has had a detrimental effect.
We've become po faced in the extreme, and it's not a good look. Racism, sexism, ageism, bring it on.
Don't see his problem with that. If anyone on here is racist, they should bring it to the table. You can't legislate it away, so let's talk about it. 
It should be open house. I worked with a man for ten years, who was active in the church, collected thousands for local charities, and was never openly racist or homophobic to anyone's face.
At work however, he seemed to come out of his shell, and I won't post the words he used, but they weren't pleasant.
My remonstrations were met with a weary smile, and a 'you're living in dreamland' attitude.
I'd have reported him to the boss, but he was the boss. He loved Poles though. He often threatened to get rid of me so he could employ another one.

55Black Lives Matter - Page 2 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 11 2020, 17:39

T.R.O.Y.


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
@Sluffy wrote:
Colston was simply a product of his time, slap bang in the middle period of the 250 year Atlantic slave trade where it was seen to be normal and well practiced behaviour at the time.


Okay so should he have a statue celebrating his life, in spite of causing so much suffering?

Yes or no will do on that one, I've made it easy for you.

@Sluffy wrote:Funny how you have been practically non existent on the forum when I've not been posting and straight on my case when I occasionally have.

I like a good debate, I've made no secret of that. The fact you disagree with every view i have is bound to provoke me to post. As I've said the forum needs you, and clearly you need the forum. If you didn't you wouldn't be watching from afar and posting whenever the temptation gets too much.

So stop pretending otherwise with all this toodle pip rubbish.

56Black Lives Matter - Page 2 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 11 2020, 18:09

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson
Debate, my arse. 
Nobody debates stuff on here since the advent of Brexit. Whatever view is put up, is immediately shot down, followed by lots of links, and asking of questions that drill down to such minor points, that a sensible outcome is impossible.

57Black Lives Matter - Page 2 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 11 2020, 18:28

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@gloswhite wrote:Debate, my arse. 
Nobody debates stuff on here since the advent of Brexit. Whatever view is put up, is immediately shot down, followed by lots of links, and asking of questions that drill down to such minor points, that a sensible outcome is impossible.
Debate is pretty much dead. Get the Countryside Alliance into a room with anti hunting groups and watch the  'debate'.
I guarantee the police will be involved within twenty minutes.
These days we seem to take our position, dig a trench, and fight it out to the death. I'm as guilty as anyone.
With Brexit, as Glos says, this fact was writ large.

58Black Lives Matter - Page 2 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 11 2020, 18:41

T.R.O.Y.


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
@gloswhite wrote:Debate, my arse. 
Nobody debates stuff on here since the advent of Brexit. Whatever view is put up, is immediately shot down, followed by lots of links, and asking of questions that drill down to such minor points, that a sensible outcome is impossible.

You’ve complained about being asked questions ever since I asked you why you thought Hilary Clinton was linked to drug dealers. Never understood why it annoyed you so much, seems a reasonable thing to ask to me.

To be honest I don’t get the issue either of you seem to have with how ‘debates’ on here tend to go - appreciate that probably says more about me than anything else though! 

If it is such an issue that seems to detract from your enjoyment though can you not just ignore the topics?

59Black Lives Matter - Page 2 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 11 2020, 19:05

okocha

okocha
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
When was the last time you heard/saw someone admit that they were wrong and that they'd changed their opinion due to the strength of the opposing argument? Football fans are the worst for digging their heels in and will swear black is blue rather than lose face. Politicians run them close! 

For what it's worth, I think Troy, Bonce, xmiles and Norpig are interesting to read, and are fair-minded. That's not to say that others can't be excellent too, but those 4 are consistently worth logging in for imo.

(Ok....I'm ready to field some flak for this!)

60Black Lives Matter - Page 2 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 11 2020, 19:20

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@okocha wrote:When was the last time you heard/saw someone admit that they were wrong and that they'd changed their opinion due to the strength of the opposing argument? Football fans are the worst for digging their heels in and will swear black is blue rather than lose face. Politicians run them close! 

For what it's worth, I think Troy, Bonce, xmiles and Norpig are interesting to read, and are fair-minded. That's not to say that others can't be excellent too, but those 4 are consistently worth logging in for imo.

(Ok....I'm ready to field some flak for this!)
Well said mate. Where do we mail the cheque? 
You're quite right though. Sometimes, heaven forbid, we might be wrong. And I hope, in such cases, we're man/woman enough to admit it, and, if necessary, say sorry.

'Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong'. (Jean-Jacques Rousseau).

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