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How is the Tory government doing?

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331How is the Tory government doing? - Page 12 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Mon Dec 07 2020, 22:30

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
@Sluffy wrote:

Individuals maybe but not on a global stage as would be required as nations would need to be able to do.  For instance we abolished slavery in 1807 - and it took to 1990 for Islam to get around to it - only another 183 year latter!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Muslim_world

And some Muslims are still advocating slavery.

In 2003, Shaykh Saleh Al-Fawzan, a member of Saudi Arabia's highest religious body, the Senior Council of Clerics, issued a fatwa claiming "Slavery is a part of Islam. Slavery is part of jihad, and jihad will remain as long there is Islam." Muslim scholars who said otherwise were "infidels". In 2016, Shaykh al-Fawzan responded to a question about taking Yazidi women as sex slaves by reiterating that "Enslaving women in war is not prohibited in Islam", he added that those who forbid enslavement are either "ignorant or infidel".

332How is the Tory government doing? - Page 12 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Mon Dec 07 2020, 22:49

okocha

okocha
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@Sluffy wrote:

Individuals maybe but not on a global stage as would be required as nations would need to be able to do.  For instance we abolished slavery in 1807 - and it took to 1990 for Islam to get around to it - only another 183 year latter!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Muslim_world
That's still progress towards a more civilised world, and better than inaction.

333How is the Tory government doing? - Page 12 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Mon Dec 07 2020, 23:38

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Sluffy wrote:

Individuals maybe but not on a global stage as would be required as nations would need to be able to do.  For instance we abolished slavery in 1807 - and it took to 1990 for Islam to get around to it - only another 183 year latter!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Muslim_world
Given that the Prophet only came on to the scene around the year 600 does that imply that they have another 417 years to catch up and overtake us in the humanity stakes?

I'd put money on it seeing that slavery in Islamic countries is representative of global modern slavery. According to this article  there are loads of countries where slavery isn't actually criminalised - including Canada and Sweden surprisingly.

Thankfully the ILO estimates that globally these days there only are around 40 million people in slavery/forced marriages - a huge number but out of a population of say 7.6 billion at least it's not as bad as the bad old days when career options were slavery or death.

334How is the Tory government doing? - Page 12 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Mon Dec 07 2020, 23:49

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@okocha wrote:
@Sluffy wrote:

Individuals maybe but not on a global stage as would be required as nations would need to be able to do.  For instance we abolished slavery in 1807 - and it took to 1990 for Islam to get around to it - only another 183 year latter!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Muslim_world
That's still progress towards a more civilised world, and better than inaction.

A 183 year wait IS inaction.

We have 'modern' slavery now in many parts of the world, even in the UK,

All this fuss we've had over BLM, worldwide condemnation, footballers taking a knee and the first came crowds are allowed back into you have Millwall fans booing the gesture.

My point being that people simply don't change overnight and those in power don't give it up voluntarily.

I refer you back to my initial points I made above in that this country is not isolated in the world and it simply can't make such grand gestures without consequences that frankly the electorate would simply not be prepared to tolerate and vote to change the government at the earliest opportunity to do so.

That's the 'real' world we live in - Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall - as they say.

335How is the Tory government doing? - Page 12 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Tue Dec 08 2020, 08:26

okocha

okocha
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@Sluffy wrote:

All this fuss we've had over BLM, worldwide condemnation, footballers taking a knee and the first came crowds are allowed back into you have Millwall fans booing the gesture.

Sorry, Sluffy...I couldn't make proper sense of the above, so I can't respond fully.

What I would say is that, as ever, there are lots of initiatives across the globe aimed at improving our lot (re climate change, conservation. equality, poverty, domestic violence, bullying, crime, exploitation etc).

 These movements seep into our consciousness and are taken up by others so that they grow, no matter how slowly.

There will be kickbacks and opposition to progress towards a better planet, but as long as there are folk like Attenborough, Gandhi, Martin Luther King to prick our collective consciences, mankind can survive.

We can all play our part as individuals to put pressure on the media and governments whose priorities need to change to drive progress more quickly of course but what mustn't happen is that society simply sits on its hands. 
What's that saying about good men doing nothing??!! Role models matter.

336How is the Tory government doing? - Page 12 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Tue Dec 08 2020, 11:29

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@okocha wrote:
@Sluffy wrote:

All this fuss we've had over BLM, worldwide condemnation, footballers taking a knee and the first came crowds are allowed back into you have Millwall fans booing the gesture.

Sorry, Sluffy...I couldn't make proper sense of the above, so I can't respond fully.

What I would say is that, as ever, there are lots of initiatives across the globe aimed at improving our lot (re climate change, conservation. equality, poverty, domestic violence, bullying, crime, exploitation etc).

 These movements seep into our consciousness and are taken up by others so that they grow, no matter how slowly.

There will be kickbacks and opposition to progress towards a better planet, but as long as there are folk like Attenborough, Gandhi, Martin Luther King to prick our collective consciences, mankind can survive.

We can all play our part as individuals to put pressure on the media and governments whose priorities need to change to drive progress more quickly of course but what mustn't happen is that society simply sits on its hands. 
What's that saying about good men doing nothing??!! Role models matter.

You couldn't understand the point I made that despite a universal, public awareness, high profile, long lasting, continuing, condemnation of racism, the first chance some people have they show their rejection of it, or at least the rejection of the gesture adopted to bring awareness of it?  You can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink.  You need to win hearts and mind before you can change behaviour.

You are in the remainder of your post moving towards the point I've made from the beginning namely that change is extremely slow and may take generations to achieve at individual level and many century's at national level.

Of the three names you mention above, two of them were assassinated by their own community, let alone influence the world universally - do you really belief for instance that say Russia and China hold dear to the principles of those you named above even now?

To say that the UK should make a world stand in respect of setting an example to the world as you did is simply ridiculous, do you really think the world even listens to us let alone follows our values?

Our views and beliefs are simply not held or shared by the most of the world so why us making a stand on something or other would make the world a better place is just our opinion and outlook on how the world should be - not theirs and therefore won't achieve anything much in real terms even if what we are saying and trying to achieve is the right one and the reality is that we have to still be a part of the world to continue to exist and not to stand alone from it and become isolated and ignored from it.

337How is the Tory government doing? - Page 12 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Tue Dec 08 2020, 14:28

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
Brexit: UK and EU reach deal on Northern Ireland border checks

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55229681

Surprise, surprise.

Another step closer in this game achieved, wonder what compromise the EU gave?

338How is the Tory government doing? - Page 12 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Tue Dec 08 2020, 14:40

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Sluffy wrote:Brexit: UK and EU reach deal on Northern Ireland border checks

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55229681

Surprise, surprise.

Another step closer in this game achieved, wonder what compromise the EU gave?
I know you can't "win" a negotiation, but Johnson et al are all about messaging, so I'm curious as to how they'll spin yet another massive U-turn?

Obviously this one was necessary after the Ways and Means Committee gave them a rap on the knuckles.

Fishing? Might fold on this too as it's small beans, but I can't yet see how they'll get government subsidies and incentives through without reciprocal import duties. Maybe they feel that exporting to the EU can be made up in other markets - or at least they can spin it that way?

339How is the Tory government doing? - Page 12 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Wed Dec 09 2020, 12:10

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Anyone read the Gove interview after the Tories folded on the Internal Market Bill? Apparently he claimed it as a victory as they would now have no barriers to trade with Ireland/EU or the UK.
Didn't take long before it was pointed out to him that there were no barriers to trade before the referendum.

340How is the Tory government doing? - Page 12 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Wed Dec 09 2020, 12:33

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@wanderlust wrote:Anyone read the Gove interview after the Tories folded on the Internal Market Bill? Apparently he claimed it as a victory as they would now have no barriers to trade with Ireland/EU or the UK.
Didn't take long before it was pointed out to him that there were no barriers to trade before the referendum.

True but they came with conditions though and the people voted for Brexit not to have those conditions anymore.

You were one of them don't forget!

You WON the referendum, this is a consequence of what you voted for.

You helped make this bed, now we've all got to lay in it whether we want to or not.

341How is the Tory government doing? - Page 12 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Wed Dec 09 2020, 14:54

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Sluffy wrote:

True but they came with conditions though and the people voted for Brexit not to have those conditions anymore.

You were one of them don't forget!

You WON the referendum, this is a consequence of what you voted for.

You helped make this bed, now we've all got to lay in it whether we want to or not.
Record stuck again? I'm going to have to bump all the Brexit threads if keep on libelling me. Your choice.

342How is the Tory government doing? - Page 12 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Wed Dec 09 2020, 15:43

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@wanderlust wrote:
@Sluffy wrote:

True but they came with conditions though and the people voted for Brexit not to have those conditions anymore.

You were one of them don't forget!

You WON the referendum, this is a consequence of what you voted for.

You helped make this bed, now we've all got to lay in it whether we want to or not.
Record stuck again? I'm going to have to bump all the Brexit threads if keep on libelling me. Your choice.

Libelling you????

Hahahahaha.

:rofl:

Allow me to 'bump' this what YOU wrote voluntarily and without even being asked or questioned about how you voted on Brexit!!!

"One of the hardest things to do is to admit you were conned and manipulated but I'm prepared to do it as I voted to Leave with the free trade deal I was promised in the referendum. After all it was going to be "the easiest in human history" to negotiate especially as "we hold all the cards". Nobody is prepared to consider that they have been manipulated, believed lies they were told and nobody likes being taken for a mug which is presumably why the conversation has been closed down and rather than manning up, many leavers are now trying to say no deal is what they voted for all along and that all leave voters voted for the same thing. We didn't".

http://www.wanderersways.com/forum/topic/88073-in-or-out-again/?do=findComment&comment=1934938

And don't give me the bullshit you aren't that poster, Norpig can confirm it was you.

Rolling Eyes

343How is the Tory government doing? - Page 12 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Fri Dec 11 2020, 10:00

okocha

okocha
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Boris Johnson has told people and businesses to prepare for the "strong possibility" we will not agree a post-Brexit trade deal with the EU, and end up trading on "Australian" terms.
But Malcolm Turnbull, the former Australian prime minister, said there was no trade deal between his country and the bloc....

344How is the Tory government doing? - Page 12 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Fri Dec 11 2020, 13:01

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@okocha wrote:Boris Johnson has told people and businesses to prepare for the "strong possibility" we will not agree a post-Brexit trade deal with the EU, and end up trading on "Australian" terms.
But Malcolm Turnbull, the former Australian prime minister, said there was no trade deal between his country and the bloc....
...and that there are lots of barriers. Does "Australian deal" sound better than "no deal" which is what he really means? I suppose it does to some.
Interesting perspective in the Spectator which suggest a no deal could actually make Starmer unelectable here.

345How is the Tory government doing? - Page 12 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Fri Dec 11 2020, 13:29

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
How is the Tory government doing? - Page 12 Eo6QfWAW8AME94v?format=jpg&name=360x360

Daily Fail's guide to post-Brexit dining here.

YUM!

346How is the Tory government doing? - Page 12 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Fri Dec 11 2020, 14:14

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
@wanderlust wrote:
...and that there are lots of barriers. Does "Australian deal" sound better than "no deal" which is what he really means? I suppose it does to some.
Interesting perspective in the Spectator which suggest a no deal could actually make Starmer unelectable here.

That Spectator article is pure brexiteer bullshit. His argument depends upon fantasies such as the "UK economy is going to be roaring ahead by the spring of 2021" and "the great rebound boom". Then there is "UK consumers switch from overseas to domestic produce ... out of patriotic endeavour, particularly if Johnson talks up a 'buy British' campaign".

347How is the Tory government doing? - Page 12 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Fri Dec 11 2020, 14:49

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Does anyone seriously consider Brie a British staple? It's an insult to real cheese.

348How is the Tory government doing? - Page 12 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Fri Dec 11 2020, 14:53

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@boltonbonce wrote:Does anyone seriously consider Brie a British staple? It's an insult to real cheese.
More a nice to have, especially if it's been in the fridge for a month building up the ammonia - but there are a couple of British "bries" e.g Baron Bigod and one whose name eludes me but I reckon it begins with L. Both are very expensive TBH.

349How is the Tory government doing? - Page 12 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Fri Dec 11 2020, 14:56

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@xmiles wrote:

That Spectator article is pure brexiteer bullshit. His argument depends upon fantasies such as the "UK economy is going to be roaring ahead by the spring of 2021" and "the great rebound boom". Then there is "UK consumers switch from overseas to domestic produce ... out of patriotic endeavour, particularly if Johnson talks up a 'buy British' campaign".

I know but it's an interesting thought in trying to predict the media fallout. Just like Trump supporters believing the election was rigged, there will be plenty of Brits who will choose to believe this shit and the media will only fuel it.

350How is the Tory government doing? - Page 12 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Fri Dec 11 2020, 14:56

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@wanderlust wrote:
More a nice to have, especially if it's been in the fridge for a month building up the ammonia - but there are a couple of British "bries" e.g Baron Bigod and one whose name eludes me but I reckon it begins with L. Both are very expensive TBH.
Bloody foreigners. Very Happy

351How is the Tory government doing? - Page 12 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Fri Dec 11 2020, 15:21

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I was reading about wine merchants trying to stock up but having trouble at the ports as everyone is apparently trying to do it and there are already trucks queuing. Shouldn't be too problematic as there are plenty of wines in Oz, NZ, SA and S America. Never heard back from Bob re how he got on with the Portuguese merchant I put him on to - prices are so low that and extra 15% or whatever won't be too punitive. Like a nice Douro red TBF.

352How is the Tory government doing? - Page 12 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Mon Dec 14 2020, 13:29

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Interesting YouGov poll released today says that 66% of Brits want a deal with the EU - and only 15% want no-deal, the rest being don't knows.
With Boris having stated that the chances of leaving without a deal were "a million to one" when he announced his "oven-ready" deal only a year ago (how we laughed!), he may be facing issues from within his own party - who are also two-thirds in favour of a deal.
However the big Tory party funders, many of whom have global incomes and lifestyles tend to favour no deal and some observers are saying that the funders will "trump" party members and the broader public when it comes to driving the Tory party - and it increasingly looks like Sainsbury, Murdoch et al have won.

To pull a deal out of the bag at this late stage would require some compromise from Boris which could be interpreted as a shit deal or a ready-made excuse not to do it, depending on your viewpoint.

353How is the Tory government doing? - Page 12 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Mon Dec 14 2020, 13:40

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
Sainsbury opposed brexit and put a lot of money into opposing it so I think you have the wrong man wl.

354How is the Tory government doing? - Page 12 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Mon Dec 14 2020, 14:36

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@xmiles wrote:Sainsbury opposed brexit and put a lot of money into opposing it so I think you have the wrong man wl.
My mistake XM - must have had a senior moment Smile
Why would a supermarket tycoon want Brexit anyway?
Losing the plot today. Shocked

355How is the Tory government doing? - Page 12 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Mon Dec 14 2020, 17:15

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@wanderlust wrote:The Spectator  argues that Boris would be better off leaving the EU with no deal rather than a bad deal. Makes some valid points.
As the "negotiations" drag on even if it's just for show, it seems more and more analysts and political commentators of all colours are agreeing with this e.g. this article in the Independent  - no deal may indeed be better than a shit deal (to paraphrase Theresa May)
It's a concept I'm struggling with TBH. We surely have to have some agreement over intelligence sharing/national security don't we? And the impact on industry, supplies, employment and the economy in general is another big worry.
But we are where we are and from this position there is no chance the EU will make further concessions so I'm coming round to the idea that we should accept the low regulation/low tax free-for-all economy that the Toerags are planning.
I reckon there will be a devastating impact on working and middle class people whatever happens, and although the government will be too skint to prop up our businesses (the "level playing field" sticking point) other than offering further tax breaks (which will put us deeper into the financial mire) we are out of the Single Market either way and that was the goose that laid the golden egg. It will then be up to the British people to try to reinstate our rights - all over again.
Prior to the 2016 referendum I asked "what is there to be gained by leaving the EU?" - and got no response. Now I'm asking myself "what is there to be gained by not making a clean break and finally exposing Brexit for what it really is?"

356How is the Tory government doing? - Page 12 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Wed Dec 16 2020, 10:26

okocha

okocha
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Just had to forward this article for those of you who might be interested, as it pretty much encapsulates my own views on the situation.

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/tories-duty-speak-out-calamitous-brexit-793294

357How is the Tory government doing? - Page 12 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Wed Dec 16 2020, 11:12

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
Sadly brexiteers will never read it as they find facts difficult to deal with. They are much happier with their ignorant prejudices.

Research published in last week's Sunday Times shows that hard core brexiteers are just doubling down on their misguided beliefs rather than face reality. You can lead a horse to water ...

358How is the Tory government doing? - Page 12 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Wed Dec 16 2020, 17:00

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@xmiles wrote:Sadly brexiteers will never read it as they find facts difficult to deal with. They are much happier with their ignorant prejudices.
I'm not so sure. Even that pinnacle of journalism Conservative Woman Smile is getting very twitchy about Boris and two thirds of Tories want a deal with the EU.
Unfortunately the only deal possible at this stage is nothing like the one they were promised so even if a deal is struck they won't be happy with it - they want Single Market terms without Single Market conditions - and Boris will be getting his marching orders at the first available opportunity open to them.
Question is how much damage to the country will he and Sunak do before they are ousted.

359How is the Tory government doing? - Page 12 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Wed Dec 16 2020, 18:56

okocha

okocha
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Here's a frightening thought:-who would relace Boris as PM if the Tories did oust him?

Just as no one felt Corbyn was fit to govern, so there is no obvious Tory from the cabinet or the rank and file that would be judged acceptable.

The only benefit from the calamities that have befallen Boris during his tenure is that his perennial smirk has gone into hibernation....

360How is the Tory government doing? - Page 12 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Wed Dec 16 2020, 22:27

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@okocha wrote:Here's a frightening thought:-who would relace Boris as PM if the Tories did oust him?

Just as no one felt Corbyn was fit to govern, so there is no obvious Tory from the cabinet or the rank and file that would be judged acceptable.

The only benefit from the calamities that have befallen Boris during his tenure is that his perennial smirk has gone into hibernation....
I think they'd go for Sunak. He's been throwing our money around like Father Christmas on ecstasy winning the lottery and a lot of people seem to think that he knows what he's doing. Very few folk know about his affluent gazillionaire background and rank and file Tories would see appointing someone of East African Asian background as evidence of their progress. 
However whilst they know what they don't like, they are not so sure about what they do like. 
From what I can gather from the locals, being a Tory is a bit like believing in a blue Utopia - a wonderful world seeped in nostalgic overtones where our "values" ensure everybody has an equal chance in a competitive yet charitable society.

::rules::
(Bloke telling me about it in the pub last year)



Last edited by wanderlust on Wed Dec 16 2020, 22:37; edited 1 time in total

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