What Jimmy Phillips Thought - Bristol City

Norpig wrote:some of these players have played in the Prem LPP, Wheater, Moxey and Mavies to name a few, the vast majority of the rest have played at Championship level before.

Yes - there probably isn't a division that they've not been relegated from at one time or another.
They are all rejects who had their day and when they were sussed out they were moved on.
Fortunately for them, Bolton have been so desperate for years, we signed them in the vain hope that the rest of the world was wrong about them.

Well now we know that the rest of the world was right. They are barely League 1 standard. In fact they got beaten in their encounter with a League 1 club this season.

i'm obviously in a minority of one so i'm shutting up now,

I've said it before on here - we've been the victims of a perfect shit storm:

Poor / untested manager + shite players that nobody else wants = Recipe for disaster.

Should Lennon have been able to get more out of them, despite his lack of experience working with dross?

Possibly.

Which one of those 2 factors played the bigger part in our demise?

We'll never know.

Did one exacerbate the other?

Very probably - The manager wasn't very good so this gave already poor players a ready made excuse to perform even worse than they may have anyway.

Either way, if we'd had a manager with a bit more nous, we may not have performed as poorly this season.

Equally, if Lennon had enjoyed the luxury of 2 or 3 quality players (including someone who knew where the goal was), we may have avoided relegation.

The truth is, we'll never know.

Breadman wrote:
The truth is, we'll never know.

Whether they're shit or not? I think we pretty much do know. Perhaps they'll suddenly start playing consistently well but I doubt it. Either way if we don't know now then we will sooner or later.

Yes, of course they're shit - that's well documented by our results this season.

The point I'm trying to make is that even though they are undoubtedly shit, we'll never know if a manager with a bit more ability could somehow have made them sufficiently less shit to avoid relegation.

We've drawn 14 games this season and if we'd just been able to hang on and convert 5 of those into wins, we'd be 2 points behind Fulham on 36 with a real chance of staying up.

Fine margins......

As a manager you need to make the most out of the resources you have control of and influence as much as you can those you don't have control of.

You also need to command respect.

Once he started to bring back his mistress for a shag to the team hotel on the eve of the match the following day that certainly signalled that football was not his prime focus and his professionalism was nothing more than a sham.

Little wonder players of the quality both as a player and a person (jailed previously remember for an unprovoked assault on a member of the public) as Madine was able to publically on TV call him a "fucking prick" with Lennon clearly having no authority left in the squad.

No other player stepped up to tell Madine to button his mouth - either on the pitch or after the game - and ultimately Madine abused Lennon weeks later and that time was dropped - but the damaged had already been done and his respect and authority over the playing squad long gone.

I know it is hard managing - and with respect to them in general - a bunch of spoilt kids who have had everything handed to them on a plate since they were children, simply because they can kick a ball about better than most.  There is no need for any of these spoilt but extremely rich by most peoples standards men to work very hard at anything, require any intelligence and live their lives by the norms and values of the rest of us.

Spearing, when he was the club captain was pictured pissing it up on holiday last year midway through the season whilst our results had been shocking - was a testament to what sort of responsibility and accountability they view they have to the organisation that pays them.

It seems to me viewing from afar that the whole culture of the club has been wrong for some time - the mystery funding of the club and the unfeasibly large debt, the behaviour of Gartside and the lies he told (the signing of Hamann for instance) and the lack of credibility the judge said he had.  The behaviour of some of the managers (did Gartside/Davies really not know Lennon was flaunting his mistress on the eve of matches rather than preparing the players to win - or did they simply not care?).  The signing of a known thug (do leopards change their spots?) and a goalkeeper on a three year contract that surely when they did it they must have known they could never afford to honour it.

What the fuck was going on?

Even then if you are in a job, you do your best - that's what I believe in anyway.  Maybe you do look to escape somewhere else but whilst you are there you try your best.

If I had been Lennon I would have simplified a lot and bonded the team as best I could to the community.

On the playing side and recognising we had no one capable of scoring goals from open play I would have packed the midfield and parked the bus in defence and worked almost solely and exclusively on set plays to score.  I would have drilled them time and time again to defend in depth, pick up runners and tight marking at set plays against us and practise, practice, practice set piece attacking moves.

On the community bonding I'd have the players give at least an afternoon of their week, every week and visit hospitals, schools, works, local charities, churches, mosques, sponsored charity events - in short everything and everything to do with the local community, simply to break down the barrier I perceive the modern footballer (at the higher levels anyway) now has with the majority of people who actually follows them.

How can very rich young men who have never done a real days hard graft in their lives or ever been short of anything understand the rest of us who have?

Maybe Lennon's failing was that he himself was one of the first generations of kids who grew up in the footballing 'balloon' world, cosseted from the real life the rest of us live!

Either way Lennon was unable to improve what he had either by inspiring them, motivating them, thinking for them or living his life as an example for them and consequently failed them and had to go.

Breadman wrote:Yes, of course they're shit - that's well documented by our results this season.

The point I'm trying to make is that even though they are undoubtedly shit, we'll never know if a manager with a bit more ability could somehow have made them sufficiently less shit to avoid relegation.

We've drawn 14 games this season and if we'd just been able to hang on and convert 5 of those into wins, we'd be 2 points behind Fulham on 36 with a real chance of staying up.

Fine margins......

OK. So we're agreed it's a sow's ear then.

I think it's worth noting that Lennon did forfeit his payoff to save the club a salary. If only some of the players would take a lesson from his book.

I've already posted this elsewhere today but it sort of echoes Sluffy's thoughts.

Where else in the world, other than the top levels of professional sport, can you:

Be shit at your job

Ponce about only giving it 5% effort

Tell your boss to fuck off on live national telly

Earn the sort of riches that the rest of us can only visualise in the context of a lottery win

Openly display a lack of determination to succeed

and yet, do it all with the impunity that comes from having a cast iron contract which means that if your employer wants to sack you, you get the rest of your contract paid up in full?

It's a crazy situation and it's stacked so heavily in favour of the players, it's ridiculous.

If any of us in the normal world did what this lot have done, we'd get the curly finger and be sent packing with a basic payment which constituted whatever we would earn during our notice period.

End of.

So why should being able to play football mean that you're indispensable or, at the very least, very expensive to sack?

It's a fucking nonsense.

Breadman wrote:Be shit at your job

Ponce about only giving it 5% effort

Openly display a lack of determination to succeed

and yet, do it all with the impunity that comes from having a cast iron contract which means that if your employer wants to sack you, you get the rest of your contract paid up in full?

What do you do again?

I'm bright enough to at least make it look like they're getting value for money when they retain my services and I've never openly laughed in anyone's face.

Although I have told one or two to fuck off in the past.

Sluffy wrote:As a manager you need to make the most out of the resources you have control of and influence as much as you can those you don't have control of.

You also need to command respect.

Once he started to bring back his mistress for a shag to the team hotel on the eve of the match the following day that certainly signalled that football was not his prime focus and his professionalism was nothing more than a sham.

Little wonder players of the quality both as a player and a person (jailed previously remember for an unprovoked assault on a member of the public) as Madine was able to publically on TV call him a "fucking prick" with Lennon clearly having no authority left in the squad.

No other player stepped up to tell Madine to button his mouth - either on the pitch or after the game - and ultimately Madine abused Lennon weeks later and that time was dropped - but the damaged had already been done and his respect and authority over the playing squad long gone.

I know it is hard managing - and with respect to them in general - a bunch of spoilt kids who have had everything handed to them on a plate since they were children, simply because they can kick a ball about better than most.  There is no need for any of these spoilt but extremely rich by most peoples standards men to work very hard at anything, require any intelligence and live their lives by the norms and values of the rest of us.

Spearing, when he was the club captain was pictured pissing it up on holiday last year midway through the season whilst our results had been shocking - was a testament to what sort of responsibility and accountability they view they have to the organisation that pays them.

It seems to me viewing from afar that the whole culture of the club has been wrong for some time - the mystery funding of the club and the unfeasibly large debt, the behaviour of Gartside and the lies he told (the signing of Hamann for instance) and the lack of credibility the judge said he had.  The behaviour of some of the managers (did Gartside/Davies really not know Lennon was flaunting his mistress on the eve of matches rather than preparing the players to win - or did they simply not care?).  The signing of a known thug (do leopards change their spots?) and a goalkeeper on a three year contract that surely when they did it they must have known they could never afford to honour it.

What the fuck was going on?

Even then if you are in a job, you do your best - that's what I believe in anyway.  Maybe you do look to escape somewhere else but whilst you are there you try your best.

If I had been Lennon I would have simplified a lot and bonded the team as best I could to the community.

On the playing side and recognising we had no one capable of scoring goals from open play I would have packed the midfield and parked the bus in defence and worked almost solely and exclusively on set plays to score.  I would have drilled them time and time again to defend in depth, pick up runners and tight marking at set plays against us and practise, practice, practice set piece attacking moves.

On the community bonding I'd have the players give at least an afternoon of their week, every week and visit hospitals, schools, works, local charities, churches, mosques, sponsored charity events - in short everything and everything to do with the local community, simply to break down the barrier I perceive the modern footballer (at the higher levels anyway) now has with the majority of people who actually follows them.

How can very rich young men who have never done a real days hard graft in their lives or ever been short of anything understand the rest of us who have?

Maybe Lennon's failing was that he himself was one of the first generations of kids who grew up in the footballing 'balloon' world, cosseted from the real life the rest of us live!

Either way Lennon was unable to improve what he had either by inspiring them, motivating them, thinking for them or living his life as an example for them and consequently failed them and had to go.

I know you don't like Madine, Sluffy, but he hasn't punched a BWFC supporter yet, so when you ask "does a leopard change it's spots?" I think you're being a little unfair. Madine is not the only one Lennon had trouble with and tbh, Lennon may have got a better performance out of BWFC than JP did on Saturday.

I do agree with you about Lennon though. Taking his mistress back for a quickie and problems became too obvious with one of his comments about the players always going sick on the day of matches


I think JP took this game too casually. Allowing players days of (Iles mentioned that Wednesday was the normal day off, in his twitter feed) when we are bottom of the table shows to me a lack of concern. Allardyce use to have the players in on a Sunday if he felt there was a particularly bad performance and I feel that should be the same now. We have a month to go to the end of the season, they should have been working 7 days a week to rectify the position earning a rest if and when we won.



The good thing about this is JP now knows what a car crash the squad is and now needs to stamp his authority on the squad.



However, some of those "experienced players" have now had 4/5 managers at BWFC alone and some like Mark Davies and Darren Pratley have done little to show that they really give a fig about the football club. Mark Davies having played in the shockers at Wembley (Stoke 5-0), Reading (7-1), and now Bristol (6-0). One wonders what it would take for these two players to put some effort in? These two have some of the longest contracts at the club and I'm not sure SS have enough to pay to get rid.


I'm extremely worried that the malaise has settled in and there is no way back. Can you really see Mark Davies really getting hold of midfield? I can't. Can you really see Darren Pratley giving us some consistent form? - again I can't.


Vela flatters to deceive, sorry, but I question whether he is good enough. When was the last time we dominated an opposition and really created chances and put teams under real pressure? We have lacked pace for a long time and the club hasn't done anything to address the situation.

Why is it we don't go into none league to find players? We got Tony Caldwell and George Oghani that way. If you ask people who know that league they'd tell you there are players there that could easily play in the championship if not the premier league.

The manager pays for poor results, but, we have had Lee, Megson, Coyle, Freedman and Lennon (excluding a spell from JP and Andrew Hughes) so it really can't be all about the managers. Yes they've all lacked experience (except Megson of course) and maybe that has had something to do with the choice of players, but there has been a lack of pride and a lack of willingness to get down to hard work from the players.

Then we go into who is the right manager for the job? Brownie has a passion for the club, but, his management of Derby and Preston wasn't that sparkling and Peter Reid's experience at Leeds, Coventry and Plymouth doesn't look great either. We're not going to get Nigel Pearson now, though I would have liked to have had him a few years ago before Leicester got him for his 2nd spell. I'd go for John Sheridan or Chris Wilder, men are known for turning round struggling teams. If you want someone who will completely gut the place then Graham Westley is your man - though he lost the dressing room at Preston, however the argument there would be that the state Preston were in at the time was similar to us now. Simon Grayson benefitting from the job Westley did.

Think Sluffys suggestion on community bonding is right though and there are many points in his article that I agree with.

FullofSprite wrote:

Sluffy wrote:As a manager you need to make the most out of the resources you have control of and influence as much as you can those you don't have control of.

You also need to command respect.

Once he started to bring back his mistress for a shag to the team hotel on the eve of the match the following day that certainly signalled that football was not his prime focus and his professionalism was nothing more than a sham.

Little wonder players of the quality both as a player and a person (jailed previously remember for an unprovoked assault on a member of the public) as Madine was able to publically on TV call him a "fucking prick" with Lennon clearly having no authority left in the squad.

No other player stepped up to tell Madine to button his mouth - either on the pitch or after the game - and ultimately Madine abused Lennon weeks later and that time was dropped - but the damaged had already been done and his respect and authority over the playing squad long gone.

I know it is hard managing - and with respect to them in general - a bunch of spoilt kids who have had everything handed to them on a plate since they were children, simply because they can kick a ball about better than most.  There is no need for any of these spoilt but extremely rich by most peoples standards men to work very hard at anything, require any intelligence and live their lives by the norms and values of the rest of us.

Spearing, when he was the club captain was pictured pissing it up on holiday last year midway through the season whilst our results had been shocking - was a testament to what sort of responsibility and accountability they view they have to the organisation that pays them.

It seems to me viewing from afar that the whole culture of the club has been wrong for some time - the mystery funding of the club and the unfeasibly large debt, the behaviour of Gartside and the lies he told (the signing of Hamann for instance) and the lack of credibility the judge said he had.  The behaviour of some of the managers (did Gartside/Davies really not know Lennon was flaunting his mistress on the eve of matches rather than preparing the players to win - or did they simply not care?).  The signing of a known thug (do leopards change their spots?) and a goalkeeper on a three year contract that surely when they did it they must have known they could never afford to honour it.

What the fuck was going on?

Even then if you are in a job, you do your best - that's what I believe in anyway.  Maybe you do look to escape somewhere else but whilst you are there you try your best.

If I had been Lennon I would have simplified a lot and bonded the team as best I could to the community.

On the playing side and recognising we had no one capable of scoring goals from open play I would have packed the midfield and parked the bus in defence and worked almost solely and exclusively on set plays to score.  I would have drilled them time and time again to defend in depth, pick up runners and tight marking at set plays against us and practise, practice, practice set piece attacking moves.

On the community bonding I'd have the players give at least an afternoon of their week, every week and visit hospitals, schools, works, local charities, churches, mosques, sponsored charity events - in short everything and everything to do with the local community, simply to break down the barrier I perceive the modern footballer (at the higher levels anyway) now has with the majority of people who actually follows them.

How can very rich young men who have never done a real days hard graft in their lives or ever been short of anything understand the rest of us who have?

Maybe Lennon's failing was that he himself was one of the first generations of kids who grew up in the footballing 'balloon' world, cosseted from the real life the rest of us live!

Either way Lennon was unable to improve what he had either by inspiring them, motivating them, thinking for them or living his life as an example for them and consequently failed them and had to go.

I know you don't like Madine, Sluffy, but he hasn't punched a BWFC supporter yet, so when you ask "does a leopard change it's spots?" I think you're being a little unfair. Madine is not the only one Lennon had trouble with and tbh, Lennon may have got a better performance out of BWFC than JP did on Saturday.

I do agree with you about Lennon though. Taking his mistress back for a quickie and problems became too obvious with one of his comments about the players always going sick on the day of matches


I think JP took this game too casually. Allowing players days of (Iles mentioned that Wednesday was the normal day off, in his twitter feed) when we are bottom of the table shows to me a lack of concern. Allardyce use to have the players in on a Sunday if he felt there was a particularly bad performance and I feel that should be the same now. We have a month to go to the end of the season, they should have been working 7 days a week to rectify the position earning a rest if and when we won.



The good thing about this is JP now knows what a car crash the squad is and now needs to stamp his authority on the squad.



However, some of those "experienced players" have now had 4/5 managers at BWFC alone and some like Mark Davies and Darren Pratley have done little to show that they really give a fig about the football club. Mark Davies having played in the shockers at Wembley (Stoke 5-0), Reading (7-1), and now Bristol (6-0). One wonders what it would take for these two players to put some effort in? These two have some of the longest contracts at the club and I'm not sure SS have enough to pay to get rid.


I'm extremely worried that the malaise has settled in and there is no way back. Can you really see Mark Davies really getting hold of midfield? I can't. Can you really see Darren Pratley giving us some consistent form? - again I can't.


Vela flatters to deceive, sorry, but I question whether he is good enough. When was the last time we dominated an opposition and really created chances and put teams under real pressure? We have lacked pace for a long time and the club hasn't done anything to address the situation.

Why is it we don't go into none league to find players? We got Tony Caldwell and George Oghani that way. If you ask people who know that league they'd tell you there are players there that could easily play in the championship if not the premier league.

The manager pays for poor results, but, we have had Lee, Megson, Coyle, Freedman and Lennon (excluding a spell from JP and Andrew Hughes) so it really can't be all about the managers. Yes they've all lacked experience (except Megson of course) and maybe that has had something to do with the choice of players, but there has been a lack of pride and a lack of willingness to get down to hard work from the players.

Then we go into who is the right manager for the job? Brownie has a passion for the club, but, his management of Derby and Preston wasn't that sparkling and Peter Reid's experience at Leeds, Coventry and Plymouth doesn't look great either. We're not going to get Nigel Pearson now, though I would have liked to have had him a few years ago before Leicester got him for his 2nd spell. I'd go for John Sheridan or Chris Wilder, men are known for turning round struggling teams. If you want someone who will completely gut the place then Graham Westley is your man - though he lost the dressing room at Preston, however the argument there would be that the state Preston were in at the time was similar to us now. Simon Grayson benefitting from the job Westley did.

Think Sluffys suggestion on community bonding is right though and there are many points in his article that I agree with.

Two excellent sets of comments.

I wish people would learn how to quote properly.

Who's Properly?

Is he another prospective managerial candidate I've never heard of?

FullofSprite wrote:
I know you don't like Madine, Sluffy, but he hasn't punched a BWFC supporter yet, so when you ask "does a leopard change it's spots?" I think you're being a little unfair. Madine is not the only one Lennon had trouble with and tbh, Lennon may have got a better performance out of BWFC than JP did on Saturday.

I would just like to reply to you on this bit FoS.

As far as my experience in life goes people's characters are formed at an early age in childhood and to a greater extent last with them through life - unless they experience some life changing event along the way.

I don't know Madine from Adam but most normal people manage not to assault anyone even when provoked let alone initiating an attack themselves on someone they don't know over nothing much in particular.

Madine did that not once but twice!

He was jailed for it despite having the advantage of his highly paid clubs legal representatives defending him.

That suggests to me he has a lack of control or discipline over himself.

Probably his problem stems from how he was brought up and taught how to behave but he is old enough to know better, is accountable for his own behaviour but seemingly still not in control of it with Lennon having to discipline him shortly before he himself was sacked/ mutual consented to leave.

I've no doubt he is not the only person in the world who has made a mistake and at least not initially learned from it but in my opinion football is about having BOTH the skill and the attitude to be successful at the highest levels.

Players like Ravel Morrison and even our own Michael Ricketts to name but two have the skill to play at the top but have wasted their careers because of the attitude they have in life.

Clearly Sheffield Wednesday had given up on him and maybe he was the best we could get playing wise at the time but for me it simply was not worth the gamble - I said so at the time so I'm not trying to be smart in retrospect.

Maybe Lennon thought he had the skills to manage Madine but obviously his attitude and judgement was wrong too as shown over bringing his mistress into the squad environment and the eve of matches.  How can Lennon talk to any of his players about attitude and professionalism when he can't adhere to those standards himself?

I'm not here to say people can't be unfaithful, get drunk, get into fights, etc, etc, that is for themselves to do what they choose to do in their own lives but if my environment, my career and my living was driven by results, then I would surround myself with people I could depend on and who themselves wanted to do their mightiest to improve there selves and not those with the wrong attitudes.

To my way of thinking despite all the eye watering amounts of money that has gone through BWFC it has not be run professionally on any level since at least the end of the Allardyce era.

How difficult would it have been to actually sign players and play them in their best positions (eg Elmander was never a lone striker yet his career with us he more or less played that role), or to employ people who could use strategy and tactics (clearly Coyle only ever had one plan - 4-4-2 with two attacking wingers - why did we not either cut our losses with him a season earlier at least or brought in someone to help him - even though he may not have liked it - at the end of the day we got relegated and he still got sacked!).  How hard would it have been to run some background checks on players - yes they may have good footballing potential bought what is their character like - would we had ever wasted our last chance on Sordell knowing now what a crap attitude he had - another who has wasted his footballing talent because of it.

I've not even begun to mention all the issues revolving around the club like communication, accessibility, openness, community participation, accountability, engendering a oneness with everyone both within and outside the club, to bring everybody together.

I'm not saying we should tell the club what to do, or have the right to nosey into their affairs but rather wish the club would want to be a big part of the community and its spirit, which we the community want it to be.

Employing a convicted thug as players and having your manager take his shag to the team hotel on match evenings seems to send a message to me that the club really isn't bothered much about what we the punters might want and more about a 'we know best' attitude.

Well with £180 million written off and relegation to division three just a formality, clearly they didn't.

Davies, Gartside, Warburton and Lennon have gone in all but name and no doubt Madine will try to be shifted before next season if for nothing more than getting shut of his wages.

Maybe we might have ended up in the same situation if people had put done the right things at the right time but somehow I doubt it.

Good job it is only a game after all.

Sluffy wrote:

FullofSprite wrote:
I know you don't like Madine, Sluffy, but he hasn't punched a BWFC supporter yet, so when you ask "does a leopard change it's spots?" I think you're being a little unfair. Madine is not the only one Lennon had trouble with and tbh, Lennon may have got a better performance out of BWFC than JP did on Saturday.

I would just like to reply to you on this bit FoS.

As far as my experience in life goes people's characters are formed at an early age in childhood and to a greater extent last with them through life - unless they experience some life changing event along the way.

I don't know Madine from Adam but most normal people manage not to assault anyone even when provoked let alone initiating an attack themselves on someone they don't know over nothing much in particular.

Madine did that not once but twice!

He was jailed for it despite having the advantage of his highly paid clubs legal representatives defending him.

That suggests to me he has a lack of control or discipline over himself.

Probably his problem stems from how he was brought up and taught how to behave but he is old enough to know better, is accountable for his own behaviour but seemingly still not in control of it with Lennon having to discipline him shortly before he himself was sacked/ mutual consented to leave.

I've no doubt he is not the only person in the world who has made a mistake and at least not initially learned from it but in my opinion football is about having BOTH the skill and the attitude to be successful at the highest levels.

Players like Ravel Morrison and even our own Michael Ricketts to name but two have the skill to play at the top but have wasted their careers because of the attitude they have in life.

Clearly Sheffield Wednesday had given up on him and maybe he was the best we could get playing wise at the time but for me it simply was not worth the gamble - I said so at the time so I'm not trying to be smart in retrospect.

Maybe Lennon thought he had the skills to manage Madine but obviously his attitude and judgement was wrong too as shown over bringing his mistress into the squad environment and the eve of matches.  How can Lennon talk to any of his players about attitude and professionalism when he can't adhere to those standards himself?

I'm not here to say people can't be unfaithful, get drunk, get into fights, etc, etc, that is for themselves to do what they choose to do in their own lives but if my environment, my career and my living was driven by results, then I would surround myself with people I could depend on and who themselves wanted to do their mightiest to improve there selves and not those with the wrong attitudes.

To my way of thinking despite all the eye watering amounts of money that has gone through BWFC it has not be run professionally on any level since at least the end of the Allardyce era.

How difficult would it have been to actually sign players and play them in their best positions (eg Elmander was never a lone striker yet his career with us he more or less played that role), or to employ people who could use strategy and tactics (clearly Coyle only ever had one plan - 4-4-2 with two attacking wingers - why did we not either cut our losses with him a season earlier at least or brought in someone to help him - even though he may not have liked it - at the end of the day we got relegated and he still got sacked!).  How hard would it have been to run some background checks on players - yes they may have good footballing potential bought what is their character like - would we had ever wasted our last chance on Sordell knowing now what a crap attitude he had - another who has wasted his footballing talent because of it.

I've not even begun to mention all the issues revolving around the club like communication, accessibility, openness, community participation, accountability, engendering a oneness with everyone both within and outside the club, to bring everybody together.

I'm not saying we should tell the club what to do, or have the right to nosey into their affairs but rather wish the club would want to be a big part of the community and its spirit, which we the community want it to be.

Employing a convicted thug as players and having your manager take his shag to the team hotel on match evenings seems to send a message to me that the club really isn't bothered much about what we the punters might want and more about a 'we know best' attitude.

Well with £180 million written off and relegation to division three just a formality, clearly they didn't.

Davies, Gartside, Warburton and Lennon have gone in all but name and no doubt Madine will try to be shifted before next season if for nothing more than getting shut of his wages.

Maybe we might have ended up in the same situation if people had put done the right things at the right time but somehow I doubt it.

Good job it is only a game after all.

  some great points, well made sluffy.

Learn when it's appropriate to quote, and when it's just annoying.

Natasha Whittam wrote:Learn when it's appropriate to quote, and when it's just annoying.

Are you going to wear your mouse out having to scroll that little more?

Natasha Whittam wrote:Learn when it's appropriate to quote, and when it's just annoying.

 I will when you learn when it is appropriate to post and when it is just annoying.

Sluffy wrote:

FullofSprite wrote:
I know you don't like Madine, Sluffy, but he hasn't punched a BWFC supporter yet, so when you ask "does a leopard change it's spots?" I think you're being a little unfair. Madine is not the only one Lennon had trouble with and tbh, Lennon may have got a better performance out of BWFC than JP did on Saturday.

I would just like to reply to you on this bit FoS.

As far as my experience in life goes people's characters are formed at an early age in childhood and to a greater extent last with them through life - unless they experience some life changing event along the way.

I don't know Madine from Adam but most normal people manage not to assault anyone even when provoked let alone initiating an attack themselves on someone they don't know over nothing much in particular.

Madine did that not once but twice!

He was jailed for it despite having the advantage of his highly paid clubs legal representatives defending him.

That suggests to me he has a lack of control or discipline over himself.

Probably his problem stems from how he was brought up and taught how to behave but he is old enough to know better, is accountable for his own behaviour but seemingly still not in control of it with Lennon having to discipline him shortly before he himself was sacked/ mutual consented to leave.

I've no doubt he is not the only person in the world who has made a mistake and at least not initially learned from it but in my opinion football is about having BOTH the skill and the attitude to be successful at the highest levels.

Players like Ravel Morrison and even our own Michael Ricketts to name but two have the skill to play at the top but have wasted their careers because of the attitude they have in life.

Clearly Sheffield Wednesday had given up on him and maybe he was the best we could get playing wise at the time but for me it simply was not worth the gamble - I said so at the time so I'm not trying to be smart in retrospect.

Maybe Lennon thought he had the skills to manage Madine but obviously his attitude and judgement was wrong too as shown over bringing his mistress into the squad environment and the eve of matches.  How can Lennon talk to any of his players about attitude and professionalism when he can't adhere to those standards himself?

I'm not here to say people can't be unfaithful, get drunk, get into fights, etc, etc, that is for themselves to do what they choose to do in their own lives but if my environment, my career and my living was driven by results, then I would surround myself with people I could depend on and who themselves wanted to do their mightiest to improve there selves and not those with the wrong attitudes.

To my way of thinking despite all the eye watering amounts of money that has gone through BWFC it has not be run professionally on any level since at least the end of the Allardyce era.

How difficult would it have been to actually sign players and play them in their best positions (eg Elmander was never a lone striker yet his career with us he more or less played that role), or to employ people who could use strategy and tactics (clearly Coyle only ever had one plan - 4-4-2 with two attacking wingers - why did we not either cut our losses with him a season earlier at least or brought in someone to help him - even though he may not have liked it - at the end of the day we got relegated and he still got sacked!).  How hard would it have been to run some background checks on players - yes they may have good footballing potential bought what is their character like - would we had ever wasted our last chance on Sordell knowing now what a crap attitude he had - another who has wasted his footballing talent because of it.

I've not even begun to mention all the issues revolving around the club like communication, accessibility, openness, community participation, accountability, engendering a oneness with everyone both within and outside the club, to bring everybody together.

I'm not saying we should tell the club what to do, or have the right to nosey into their affairs but rather wish the club would want to be a big part of the community and its spirit, which we the community want it to be.

Employing a convicted thug as players and having your manager take his shag to the team hotel on match evenings seems to send a message to me that the club really isn't bothered much about what we the punters might want and more about a 'we know best' attitude.

Well with £180 million written off and relegation to division three just a formality, clearly they didn't.

Davies, Gartside, Warburton and Lennon have gone in all but name and no doubt Madine will try to be shifted before next season if for nothing more than getting shut of his wages.

Maybe we might have ended up in the same situation if people had put done the right things at the right time but somehow I doubt it.

Good job it is only a game after all.

I think you've made a lot of great points there Sluffy and I agree with you. I would just say though that players swear at managers, call them all sorts within the dressing room and managers do back. I agree telling Lennon to "F" of on Sky was going too far, and he was eventually disciplined for it. I realise it's verbal abuse, but since he came out of prison he hasn't physically assaulted anyone (as far as I'm aware). So from that point he has "learnt" his lesson.



Lennon gave him a second chance (as he trusted what his drinking mate Alan Thompson had said and in our position we needed somebody) and to be honest, I don't think Lennon got the best out of him, and I think he has played well, holding the ball up, just like Kevin Davies use to do. I think he gets too much of the blame and is too easy a target. Yes he is frustrating but the whole squad is. As for not disciplined, I think you can look at others as well. If any of them had put some effort in we wouldn't be in this position. Don't forget Madine was at Blackpool most of last season and he gave our defence the run around when it was playing well.



Personally it's not the Madines of this world that I blame for our position, more the Mark Davies's of this world who have had the talent and not used it. If only Mark Davies had some of Madines aggression, he might have made an England International. The lad was so laid back he was comotose. In lots of ways I'm glad we've gone down. Hopefully we'll be able to get some team spirit back. I'm certainly glad Mark Davies has gone the lazy barst****d



We know Spearing and Mark Davies have been told to find other clubs so it will be interesting to see who else is told to go. Wheater will  also be on his way, and he was another who didn't look interested either - even though he's been back from injury and training for the last 2 weeks - talk about attitude!