I can help us dodge the drop, says Whites striker Doidge

Ten Bobsworth wrote:

boltonbonce wrote:We needed an experienced old head, not a rookie. The moment I saw him on the touchline, in what looked like his dad's suit, my heart sank.

I know what you mean but Sammy Lee was 48 when briefly put in charge of BWFC. A year later he was briefly put in charge of Liverpool.

In the same year, 2008, Barcelona appointed 37-year old Pep Guardiola to manage their first team and in his first season he led them to win La Liga, the Copa del Rey and the EUFA Champions League.

Experience counts but talent counts more.

I take your point with regard to Sammy's age, but in terms of management experience, he was never going to cut it.
I like Sammy, but he's not management material, and never will be.

Growler wrote:

T.R.O.Y wrote:You moonman.

Allardyce left us before the end of the 06/07 season, when we finished 7th. You’re talking about Sammy Lee then Megson in 07/08.

Sam resigned after game 36, a 2-2 draw at Chelsea we were in 5th position.Sammy Lee's one point from the final two games dropped us to 7th.

Correct Growler, Allardyce was manager for all but the final TWO games of that season and therefore...

T.R.O.Y wrote:Allardyce left us with arguably our most talented squad in 30 years.

But left us in a bad state apparently.

Any arguing with that can only possibly be ‘for the sake of it’.

...the squad he left us with immediately crashed down the league and narrowly avoided relegation.

It simply wasn't good enough anymore - it had peaked and the advancing age of key players meant it was on a rapid downwards trajectory, even taking into account both the managers that immediately followed Allardyce leaving the club 

Clearly Sam timed his leaving of our club to perfection (almost as he knew what was going to come - with the squad he had left us with!).

Norpig wrote:The fact that you can't have a discussion without accusing people of being WUMS or trolls may be the real reason the post count is down Sluffy.

There is a very good reason why I call out those TWO specific posters for being wums or trolls.

It's because they clearly are!

Sluffy wrote:

T.R.O.Y wrote:Allardyce left us with arguably our most talented squad in 30 years.

But left us in a bad state apparently.

Any arguing with that can only possibly be ‘for the sake of it’.

...the squad he left us with immediately crashed down the league and narrowly avoided relegation.

The squad he left us with finished 7th in the table. What happened since he left is nothing to do with him.

With your logic you’d credit Lennon with our promotion from League One.

T.R.O.Y wrote:

Sluffy wrote:

T.R.O.Y wrote:Allardyce left us with arguably our most talented squad in 30 years.

But left us in a bad state apparently.

Any arguing with that can only possibly be ‘for the sake of it’.

...the squad he left us with immediately crashed down the league and narrowly avoided relegation.

The squad he left us with finished 7th in the table. What happened since he left is nothing to do with him.

With your logic you’d credit Lennon with our promotion from League One.

You are just a troll.

You engineer arguments just for your own amusement.

You clearly and deliberately edited out my following sentence that fully explained why the squad simply was no longer as good as it had been -

Sluffy wrote:...the squad he left us with immediately crashed down the league and narrowly avoided relegation.

It simply wasn't good enough anymore - it had peaked and the advancing age of key players meant it was on a rapid downwards trajectory, even taking into account both the managers that immediately followed Allardyce leaving the club

Your ad nauseated, manipulated, arguments simply don't help the site.

I wish you would realise that.

You are obviously not stupid so clearly you know precisely what you are doing just for your own personal amusement and ask you to stop it from now on please.

Thank you.

Sluffy, you’re trying to argue that a Bolton side which finished 7th, with names including Jaaskelainaen, Faye, Diouf, Davies and Anelka - not to mention Dzemaili being on the way - were on a downward trajectory. Could you point me at any of Allardyce’s squads prior to that which would have left us in a better state?

T.R.O.Y wrote:Sluffy, you’re trying to argue that a Bolton side which finished 7th, with names including Jaaskelainaen, Faye, Diouf, Davies and Anelka - not to mention Dzemaili being on the way - were on a downward trajectory. Could you point me at any of Allardyce’s squads prior to that which he could have left us in a better state?

Christ you simply don't stop do you?

Allardyce's side from 4 years previously is obviously a better one as it went on to finish in the top eight of the Premier League for the following four years - and included players like Jaaskelainen and Davies who were four years younger, fitter and at that time at the peak of their careers at the time!

Footballers grow older though, suffer from injury and wear and tear, become that half a yard slower and that's simply what happened to the team.  It's not rocket science, Allardyce obviously saw that, Lee too I guess as he clearly wanted to quickly side-line players like Campo and Davies.

Even with Lee gone and Megson brining back Campo and Davies and revert back to a more similar type of style the players had been used to, the results and performances from these players were a marked decline on their performance of previous seasons.

It is there in black and white, the results don't lie, the quality of the squad was no longer there even though several of the players were still remained - many of them had simply bowed to the inevitable march of time and gone past their sell by date.

And that's why Lee and Megson were in so much of a rush to bring in new players that season (Alonso, Braaten, Cahill, Steinsson, Taylor, Helguson McCann, Cohen, Wilhelmson, Guthrie, Samuel, Cid, Rasiak and O'Brien) to shore up the aging squad Allardyce had left behind him (he took Faye with him to Necastle and Dzemaili had done his knee before he even came to the club) - and clearly did not want to rebuild himself.

He's no fool is Allardyce - who better than him to know what the squad he chose to leave behind was actually like!

If it was so bloody good don't you think he might have taken a few others with him and Faye - after all he took the whole backroom staff with him!

We’ll have to agree to disagree Sluffy. I feel it’s obvious that allardyce left us in a good state (as I said not perfect). Obviously you feel as strongly the opposite way. All subjective.

I can see why you feel the way you do TROY and sluffy but here's my take on Sam's exit. At that time our players were obviously good but it had been clear all season that some legs were starting to fade. We wound up grinding out a lot of results with football that was neither pretty nor exciting.

In truth I doubt the slide would have been as quick had Big Sam stayed at the helm because he is the master of grinding out results and doesn't care what people think of his 'style' so long as the points go on the board but without major changes of personnel which Gartside and Eddie were allegedly unwilling to fund it would have happened no matter what Sam did. Too many of our guys were in their mid or even late thirties to keep going the way we had been.

I think Sam Allardyce left us in a pretty decent place what with European qualification and a fourth consecutive top eight finish but it was also pretty clear that without some serious investment in the squad that summer there was no way that run could even be sustained much less improved on.

So TROY is right in that we were in a decent place when Sam left but so is sluffy because the slide that followed the next season was inevitable, I think Sam could only have slowed it down as things stood and we'd have likely hated the football he played in order to do it. His exit was perfectly timed, he'd done everything he could here and what followed, while very likely inevitable can't be blamed on him.