HomeMixu would be OK.Boggersbelief wrote:Mixu
If Lennon goes.
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FullofSprite
okocha
wanderlust
Keegan
Boggersbelief
NickFazer
karlypants
boltonbonce
Barryjw
luckyPeterpiper
Hipster_Nebula
scottjames30
16 posters
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21 Re: If Lennon goes. Fri Jul 03, 2015 1:05 pm
boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
22 Re: If Lennon goes. Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:14 pm
wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
okocha wrote:Freedman would have got us relegated and bored crowds nationwide in the process, as well as alienating BW fans and players. Attendances and therefore income would have plummeted.
That is the populist opinion and you're entitled to it although I don't subscribe to it personally as it is fuelled by Lord of the Flies-type vitriol which clouds the logic and puts a very slanted perspective on the facts - and Dougie's managerial track record.
The point I made was that there is nothing between the results achieved by Dougie and Neil as Bolton manager statistically.
Bugger all difference - and that despite what was going on in the background under Dougie's tenure.
Say what you like, but the facts say that Neil has made no improvement - yet.
I made the point to highlight the bullshit in the media in respect to the Leicester link in which they cite Neil's time with us as a success. It hasn't been so far.
What has happened is that Neil has continued to clear the decks in order to get carte blanche for a rebuild. We have all been incredibly patient with him despite failing to win for months and finishing just outside the relegation zone, but sooner or later he's going to have to start getting better results.
Two things about that:
Neil may/should be motivated to stick with us and see the rebuild through to conclusion - it's a superb opportunity to create his ideal style from scratch.
Secondly, much as we like to ascribe positive personal and managerial traits to Neil (mainly gleaned from media interviews and hype) we can only judge him if and when he sees it through.
He certainly appears to be doing the right thing and going after younger players he believes will stand the club in good stead, but as yet nothing is proven.
I am encouraged with his approach to transfers and his scouting contacts and I want to believe he will be a success at Bolton but face the facts - as things stand, he isn't. So far he's done nowt results-wise.
23 Re: If Lennon goes. Sat Jul 04, 2015 4:22 pm
okocha
El Hadji Diouf
Wanderlust: your "superior thinking" reminds me of Dougie's pompous and vacuous "I know best" pronouncements.
You seem to want to ignore "the populist opinion", but this by definition, of course, represents the view of the bulk of the fans who make up the attendances; therefore it is correct to say that DF would have continued to cause attendances and club morale to decline.
You also admit that Lennon's approach and efforts have the goodwill of most supporters.
By contrast, Dougie's approach to management was suffocatingly dull and his team selections little short of crazy. Bald results are not the only indicator of the direction the club is heading. With one manager there is hope beyond the injuries and the necessary clearout; with the other there was plain bewilderment at the statements that belied the reality and the regular omission of players who, the week before, had been the star performers. Allied to an ultra-defensive system, this was inevitably heading to negative comments from fans, pundits and players.....and therefore to relegation.
You seem to want to ignore "the populist opinion", but this by definition, of course, represents the view of the bulk of the fans who make up the attendances; therefore it is correct to say that DF would have continued to cause attendances and club morale to decline.
You also admit that Lennon's approach and efforts have the goodwill of most supporters.
By contrast, Dougie's approach to management was suffocatingly dull and his team selections little short of crazy. Bald results are not the only indicator of the direction the club is heading. With one manager there is hope beyond the injuries and the necessary clearout; with the other there was plain bewilderment at the statements that belied the reality and the regular omission of players who, the week before, had been the star performers. Allied to an ultra-defensive system, this was inevitably heading to negative comments from fans, pundits and players.....and therefore to relegation.
24 Re Transfer Rumours Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:22 pm
FullofSprite
Nicolas Anelka
Don't think Hiddink wants it - he wants to retire from actual management, wants to be a tachnical directorBarryjw wrote:Apparently Hiddink approached by Leicester!
25 Re Transfer Rumours Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:25 pm
FullofSprite
Nicolas Anelka
Plenty to prove for me. Has money at Bury. Didn't do so well at Barnsley did he?. We will see how it goes and if one of Bolton's 2nd teams manage to do anything this season.scottjames30 wrote:Who would you have if Big Sam doesn't come back?
Dave Flitcroft anyone?
26 re transfers Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:31 pm
FullofSprite
Nicolas Anelka
If Lennon goes I want someone who has at least managed a club for 300 league games, hopefully in the English leagues and not in Scottish ones.
I too am a bit cynical of Lennon's record so far, there's promise but that's all we have at the moment. All that has been proven is the top Scottish league can't compete with the championship any more, so winning the Scots premiership is equivalent to winning first division (old third division) title - that is all.
The championship os a step up from the Scottish premiership so Lennon will have to up his game this season or end up like a series of other former BWFC managers - on the dole
I'd go for Pearson, Sheridan (perhaps), Paul Lambert (was villa just a blemish?) steve cotterill or maybe Nigel Clough
I too am a bit cynical of Lennon's record so far, there's promise but that's all we have at the moment. All that has been proven is the top Scottish league can't compete with the championship any more, so winning the Scots premiership is equivalent to winning first division (old third division) title - that is all.
The championship os a step up from the Scottish premiership so Lennon will have to up his game this season or end up like a series of other former BWFC managers - on the dole
I'd go for Pearson, Sheridan (perhaps), Paul Lambert (was villa just a blemish?) steve cotterill or maybe Nigel Clough
Last edited by FullofSprite on Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
27 Re: If Lennon goes. Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:36 pm
Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Alex Neil didn't do too bad for a inexperienced Scottish Manager did he?
28 Re: If Lennon goes. Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:39 pm
wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
okocha wrote:Wanderlust: your "superior thinking" reminds me of Dougie's pompous and vacuous "I know best" pronouncements.
So you're suggesting that unless I go along with "mainstream" opinion, I am claiming my opinions to be superior?
That's a bit ungracious, especially as I did say you are entitled to your opinion. My opinion is just different from yours. At no point did I apply a value judgment to the opinions expressed so stop a) making assumptions about what I am thinking and b) publishing your surmise as if it were fact.
You seem to want to ignore "the populist opinion", but this by definition, of course, represents the view of the bulk of the fans who make up the attendances; therefore it is correct to say that DF would have continued to cause attendances and club morale to decline.
Given his track record both before and after the beginning of last season, it is statistically likely DF would have turned the results around which would have removed the justification for the criticisms levelled against him. I agree he was a shit manager for us but fans and players find it difficult to complain when you are winning.
You also admit that Lennon's approach and efforts have the goodwill of most supporters.
I don't "admit" it - I state it as fact and as a fan who has admired Neil as a player and manager long before he was ever linked to our club so you can count me in as a well-wisher. Doesn't in any way change the fact that his record with us has been poor results-wise.
By contrast, Dougie's approach to management was suffocatingly dull and his team selections little short of crazy. Bald results are not the only indicator of the direction the club is heading. With one manager there is hope beyond the injuries and the necessary clearout; with the other there was plain bewilderment at the statements that belied the reality and the regular omission of players who, the week before, had been the star performers.
I didn't like the style either but star performers? Dougie had to deal with a revolution of disruptive ponces who massacred the dressing room morale. Step forward Eagles, Mears, Spearing and the other jokers who rode the bandwagon for money. Not that we know for sure what went on in training and who was playing well etc - which I perhaps naively assume is the main criteria for team selection. How any of the squad could claim to be a star performer during the abysmal start of the season I'll never know. Have you forgotten the litany of blunders? Every week we gave away a stupid penalty or two and our strikers couldn't hit a cow's bum with a shovel. And then there was the injuries...
Allied to an ultra-defensive system, this was inevitably heading to negative comments from fans, pundits and players.....and therefore to relegation.
There is no direct link between criticism and relegation. Criticism is a symptom of bad results and lack of faith. Seeing as Lennon's results have been no better than Freedman's it would seem that fans are mitigating the poor results because of Lennon's persona. Not to put too fine a point on it, the fans didn't like Freedman's persona but love Lennon's. If the results are the same but attitudes are different it does imply that there is an element of personal dislike involved.
And as to "populist opinion" you might want to consider how it is formed in the first place? Freedman's PR sucked. Lennon's is polished.
At the end of the day, Lennon can show "passion", frankness/honesty in interview, inventiveness in the transfer market and in team selection, give short shrift to prima donnas etc etc - all desirable traits of a manager in the media circus BUT if all that leads to no change in the results it means nothing. And to date it hasn't improved our results.
The media love him (huge part of populist opinion BTW) - so much that they are touting him for the manager role at Leicester and arguing (erroneously) that he has performed well at BWFC in order to justify the case. Well he hasn't so keep your hands off. He has a job to finish and a lot to prove here.
29 possible managers if Lennon leaves Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:48 pm
FullofSprite
Nicolas Anelka
They have money and experienced players and in a totally different situation to us.Norpig wrote:Alex Neil didn't do too bad for a inexperienced Scottish Manager did he?
Also we have gambled on inexperience since Megson left and where has that lead us? To where we are now. When we've been successful we've always had an experienced manager. Our last inexperienced manager that was successfulwas back in the early seventies and called Jimmy Armfield.
Yet we have had
Charlie Wright
John McGovern
Phil Neale
Colin Todd
Sammy Lee
Owen Coyle
Dougie Freedman
...and having been through all that lot you still want to appoint somebody who is inexperienced.
We're bigger club than Norwich anyway - we're Bolton and we're a unique club that needs more than whipper snappers
30 Re: If Lennon goes. Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:59 pm
Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
regarding Freedman, not exactly setting the world on fire at Forest is he? Too stubborn to ever be a really good manager and yet again Lusty feels he was hard done by 
31 Re: If Lennon goes. Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:00 pm
Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
i don't want us to appoint anyone else i'm merely pointing out your argument about Scottish managers is flawed to say the leastFullofSprite wrote:They have money and experienced players and in a totally different situation to us.Norpig wrote:Alex Neil didn't do too bad for a inexperienced Scottish Manager did he?
Also we have gambled on inexperience since Megson left and where has that lead us? To where we are now. When we've been successful we've always had an experienced manager. Our last inexperienced manager that was successfulwas back in the early seventies and called Jimmy Armfield.
Yet we have had
Charlie Wright
John McGovern
Phil Neale
Colin Todd
Sammy Lee
Owen Coyle
Dougie Freedman
...and having been through all that lot you still want to appoint somebody who is inexperienced.
We're bigger club than Norwich anyway - we're Bolton and we're a unique club that needs more than whipper snappers
32 Re: If Lennon goes. Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:06 pm
MartinBWFC
Ivan Campo
You can throw all the plaudits you want at Freedman, FACT is he utterly divided the club, remember he had the youth and U21s well away from first team activities, for all his shouting from the rooftops about youth, he would rather play square pegs in round holes rather than give youth a chance.
Secondly Freedman went on record as stating his aim was to score 1 goal and defend it or words to that effect, couple that with baffling decision making, strange formations, even stranger substitutions, and absolute embarassing opening to the last 2 seasons, and you have the mark of the man, but apart from all that yes he did well, Lusty your constant defending of him has become tiresome.
Lennon on the other hand came in and brought the whole place together, youth were given their chance, and had it not been for the horrendous injury jinx, I for one don't think we would have struggled half as much as we did.
Secondly Freedman went on record as stating his aim was to score 1 goal and defend it or words to that effect, couple that with baffling decision making, strange formations, even stranger substitutions, and absolute embarassing opening to the last 2 seasons, and you have the mark of the man, but apart from all that yes he did well, Lusty your constant defending of him has become tiresome.
Lennon on the other hand came in and brought the whole place together, youth were given their chance, and had it not been for the horrendous injury jinx, I for one don't think we would have struggled half as much as we did.
33 Re: If Lennon goes. Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:15 pm
FullofSprite
Nicolas Anelka
Norpig wrote:i don't want us to appoint anyone else i'm merely pointing out your argument about Scottish managers is flawed to say the leastFullofSprite wrote:They have money and experienced players and in a totally different situation to us.Norpig wrote:Alex Neil didn't do too bad for a inexperienced Scottish Manager did he?
Also we have gambled on inexperience since Megson left and where has that lead us? To where we are now. When we've been successful we've always had an experienced manager. Our last inexperienced manager that was successfulwas back in the early seventies and called Jimmy Armfield.
Yet we have had
Charlie Wright
John McGovern
Phil Neale
Colin Todd
Sammy Lee
Owen Coyle
Dougie Freedman
...and having been through all that lot you still want to appoint somebody who is inexperienced.
We're bigger club than Norwich anyway - we're Bolton and we're a unique club that needs more than whipper snappers
Your argument about Neil is laughable - the bloke has had 25 games and got lucky. We will see how good a manager if he survives the premiership. It's longevity that matters
34 Re: If Lennon goes. Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:17 pm
Guest
Guest
MartinBWFC wrote:You can throw all the plaudits you want at Freedman, FACT is he utterly divided the club, remember he had the youth and U21s well away from first team activities, for all his shouting from the rooftops about youth, he would rather play square pegs in round holes rather than give youth a chance.
Secondly Freedman went on record as stating his aim was to score 1 goal and defend it or words to that effect, couple that with baffling decision making, strange formations, even stranger substitutions, and absolute embarassing opening to the last 2 seasons, and you have the mark of the man, but apart from all that yes he did well, Lusty your constant defending of him has become tiresome.
Lennon on the other hand came in and brought the whole place together, youth were given their chance, and had it not been for the horrendous injury jinx, I for one don't think we would have struggled half as much as we did.
Spot on
35 Re: If Lennon goes. Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:19 pm
Guest
Guest
FullofSprite wrote:Norpig wrote:i don't want us to appoint anyone else i'm merely pointing out your argument about Scottish managers is flawed to say the leastFullofSprite wrote:They have money and experienced players and in a totally different situation to us.Norpig wrote:Alex Neil didn't do too bad for a inexperienced Scottish Manager did he?
Also we have gambled on inexperience since Megson left and where has that lead us? To where we are now. When we've been successful we've always had an experienced manager. Our last inexperienced manager that was successfulwas back in the early seventies and called Jimmy Armfield.
Yet we have had
Charlie Wright
John McGovern
Phil Neale
Colin Todd
Sammy Lee
Owen Coyle
Dougie Freedman
...and having been through all that lot you still want to appoint somebody who is inexperienced.
We're bigger club than Norwich anyway - we're Bolton and we're a unique club that needs more than whipper snappers
Your argument about Neil is laughable - the bloke has had 25 games and got lucky. We will see how good a manager if he survives the premiership. It's longevity that matters
Almost as laughable as not using quote properly.
Lennon had a depleted squad that was knackered towards the end of the season. Used a mixture of youth and experience and kept us in the league.
IF we do manage to keep him he will be the best manager we have had since big Sam
36 Re: If Lennon goes. Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:30 pm
Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
got luckyFullofSprite wrote:Norpig wrote:i don't want us to appoint anyone else i'm merely pointing out your argument about Scottish managers is flawed to say the leastFullofSprite wrote:They have money and experienced players and in a totally different situation to us.Norpig wrote:Alex Neil didn't do too bad for a inexperienced Scottish Manager did he?
Also we have gambled on inexperience since Megson left and where has that lead us? To where we are now. When we've been successful we've always had an experienced manager. Our last inexperienced manager that was successfulwas back in the early seventies and called Jimmy Armfield.
Yet we have had
Charlie Wright
John McGovern
Phil Neale
Colin Todd
Sammy Lee
Owen Coyle
Dougie Freedman
...and having been through all that lot you still want to appoint somebody who is inexperienced.
We're bigger club than Norwich anyway - we're Bolton and we're a unique club that needs more than whipper snappers
Your argument about Neil is laughable - the bloke has had 25 games and got lucky. We will see how good a manager if he survives the premiership. It's longevity that matters
yes its dead easy to get a team promoted from probably the toughest league in Europe38 Re: If Lennon goes. Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:48 am
wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Norpig wrote:regarding Freedman, not exactly setting the world on fire at Forest is he? Too stubborn to ever be a really good manager and yet again Lusty feels he was hard done by
Haven't we got enough amateur mind-reading shit-stirrers already without you joining in Norpig?
Sure Dougie was unlucky with injuries and prima donnas, but no unluckier than any of our recent managers so I've never suggested he was hard done by.
What I said was that (even after making allowances for the situation) he was not a good manager for us as confirmed by his 34% win rate - which TBF he has marginally improved upon at Forest.
Lennon has the same win rate and yet we have faith in him and tolerate his cock ups.
Don't you therefore think that despite being as bad as Dougie, the fans and the media have a completely different and generally supportive attitude towards Lennon?
That tells me that folk are bought into Lennon's style - me included.
The point was that Neil has still got to produce the goods to show it's not just style over substance.
Which means that the bull in the media to set him up for the Leicester job is cack and that I hope he is man enough to complete what he has started and has repeatedly claimed he intends to do.
I really really hope he is the man to stick with us, sort out the mess we are in and prove he is more than a media darling.
39 Re: If Lennon goes. Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:15 pm
Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Lusty you keep changing your views on Freedman, you can't have it both ways. He was either unlucky or just plain bad which one is it? You have stated on here on numerous occasions that he could have turned it around last season which no one other than you believes.
Lennon has brought a more positive attitude and a willingness to actually play the youth rather than just pay lip service to it.I do agree with you on Lennon but will never understand your Freedman views.
Lennon has brought a more positive attitude and a willingness to actually play the youth rather than just pay lip service to it.I do agree with you on Lennon but will never understand your Freedman views.
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