Middlesbrough 2-0 Bolton

MartinBWFC wrote:Sluffy it's easy to give a reasoned explanation when all you see of us is highlights, I go to home games and have to watch the shite parkinson passes off as football, there is no direction in games, continually sideways, backward, and hoof, repeat for 90 plus minutes and that's Parkinsons game plan week in week out, the way he sets up has us chasing shadows, hence players knackered after 70 minutes, the reason we concede so many late goals, it's basic stuff let the ball do the work and play out from the back, not a chance with Parkinsons mentality.

I've seen plenty of shite games at Burnden and many other grounds around the country in my days to know what you are saying - and if you notice I don't actually comment on games I don't actually watch fully.  

I also know that football as changed over the years but negative football isn't anything new - I remember Don Revie telling his Leeds side that they start the game with a point and it's up to the other team to try and take it off them rather than they attack them - boring, boring Leeds - and all that.

Parkinson is not the world's best manager but he's done well considering what he's had to face and the constraints he's had.

I've questioned his game strategy against Burton as you will remember but I think he is probably a bit entrenched in his thinking as since he did manage to bring in a midfield defender, we've been playing midtable football (in terms of points gained) - see this form table for the last 15 games (we are 17th) -

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IF you ignore the fist two games we lost whilst Henry was settling into the team we have done even better (11th in the form table) -

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Can you really blame him for sticking with his game plan that is actually being successful - even with its occasional setbacks such as Burton?

Yes, maybe crap football to watch but he/we are on track for staying up with it.

A few better players in, in January plus a few tweaks here and there in game plans might put us in a more safer league position when he can afford to play and select more positive teams.

But for now it is all about sticking to something that is (mostly) working with the players he has to pick from.

You keep saying it's working Sluffy but it obviously isn't. Yes we've done better in the last 15 games but still only 4 games won all season, we aren't on course for staying up at this rate and i can't see how you can say we are to be honest (other than blind optimism).

I don't think we will make significant changes in January, if anything we will be worse off if we do sell the likes of Vela and Parky will not change his way of playing, he's said as much already. If that makes me a pessimist then so be it , but i tend to think it's more realistic.

Norpig wrote:You keep saying it's working Sluffy but it obviously isn't. Yes we've done better in the last 15 games but still only 4 games won all season, we aren't on course for staying up at this rate and i can't see how you can say we are to be honest (other than blind optimism).

I don't think we will make significant changes in January, if anything we will be worse off if we do sell the likes of Vela and Parky will not change his way of playing, he's said as much already. If that makes me a pessimist then so be it , but i tend to think it's more realistic.

And all those 4 wins in the games since we signed a defensive midfielder - and all within our last 13 games.

We ARE on course for staying up at that rate - comfortably so in fact.

Things however can and do change - the transfer window being a big factor in this - but if we can somehow manage to keep the points to games ratio as we have had for our last 15 games (and even more so for our last 13 games following the side settling with Henry as part of it) we will stay up.

Someone got some new rose tinted glasses for Christmas i see 

I admire your optimism Sluffy but i just can't see it happening, i want us to stay up but we just don't score enough goals and i can't see that changing if Parky continues with the hoofball.

Sluffy wrote:

MartinBWFC wrote:Sluffy it's easy to give a reasoned explanation when all you see of us is highlights, I go to home games and have to watch the shite parkinson passes off as football, there is no direction in games, continually sideways, backward, and hoof, repeat for 90 plus minutes and that's Parkinsons game plan week in week out, the way he sets up has us chasing shadows, hence players knackered after 70 minutes, the reason we concede so many late goals, it's basic stuff let the ball do the work and play out from the back, not a chance with Parkinsons mentality.

I've seen plenty of shite games at Burnden and many other grounds around the country in my days to know what you are saying - and if you notice I don't actually comment on games I don't actually watch fully.  

I also know that football as changed over the years but negative football isn't anything new - I remember Don Revie telling his Leeds side that they start the game with a point and it's up to the other team to try and take it off them rather than they attack them - boring, boring Leeds - and all that.

Parkinson is not the world's best manager but he's done well considering what he's had to face and the constraints he's had.

I've questioned his game strategy against Burton as you will remember but I think he is probably a bit entrenched in his thinking as since he did manage to bring in a midfield defender, we've been playing midtable football (in terms of points gained) - see this form table for the last 15 games (we are 17th) -

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

IF you ignore the fist two games we lost whilst Henry was settling into the team we have done even better (11th in the form table) -

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Can you really blame him for sticking with his game plan that is actually being successful - even with its occasional setbacks such as Burton?

Yes, maybe crap football to watch but he/we are on track for staying up with it.

A few better players in, in January plus a few tweaks here and there in game plans might put us in a more safer league position when he can afford to play and select more positive teams.

But for now it is all about sticking to something that is (mostly) working with the players he has to pick from.

No disrespect Sluffy, but I remember the McGovern and Neal years, yes they were shit but we stood up and tried to play football, I never walked out of a ground and thought that was fucking awful the way I do with Parkinsons shite, it's counter productive and driving fans away in their droves.

Norpig wrote:Someone got some new rose tinted glasses for Christmas i see 

I admire your optimism Sluffy but i just can't see it happening, i want us to stay up but we just don't score enough goals and i can't see that changing if Parky continues with the hoofball.

This all stems from my initial reservations about:

• No shots on target... a real problem in our first ten games of the year
  
• No away wins in the Championship
  
• Gossip about Vela and Madine possibly being sold in January, in the same vein Clough and Holding were sold to pay operating costs for the season
  
• the tax services not being paid on time
  
• KA complaining about the lack of fans... indicating he needs the revenue to buy players
  
• KA complaining about too many players sitting on their backsides and not playing, while continuing to get checks
  

As I expressed to Sluffy, we are all on the same side... wanting to come out of the spiral down... but facts are we have been better since acquiring Henry and have gained ground from the dismal start of the season.  Fact is we are still within a win or two of the bottom six.  

Subjectively, many feel Parky is one-dimensional.  Fact is I watched Brentford play Villa yesterday and saw a scrappy, not so rich team, playing their hearts out, and holding on for a 2-1 victory.  They passed and ran... without getting tired. It was fun to watch.  

Fact is many of the Nutters predicted 0 points from the 4 games through New Year's Day.  We surpassed that on the first game against Cardiff.  Not having a shot on target on Boxing Day was a disappointment.  Having two goals scored against you by 15 million pound strikers is not awful. Losing a six-pointer against a fellow relegation team like Burton at home is unacceptable.  We have two more games to try and beat our own predictions... perhaps we will beat Hull and maybe salvage a point this weekend against United.  But we have to get shots on target. Fact is Parky has to adjust for the teams we are playing and not play the same game against everyone.  If we only were as scrappy as Brentford, there would be more fans in the stands.  That I'm afraid is up to leadership and we are woefully short of that in my opinion.

Most fans seem to agree that our lads find it hard to pass accurately from A to B, so surely the idea that we might try passing out from the back is fraught with danger.

Norpig wrote:Someone got some new rose tinted glasses for Christmas i see 

I admire your optimism Sluffy but i just can't see it happening, i want us to stay up but we just don't score enough goals and i can't see that changing if Parky continues with the hoofball.

Well the facts show (and not my opinion) that over the last 13 league games we are on form the 11th best club in our league.

Sometimes we need to look at the wider picture - we might well be playing shite - but are there more teams playing even shiter than we are? And if the answer is yes in more than three cases over the season then we will stay up!

Of course a lot can happen between now and May but we are only one win away from being outside the bottom three at Christmas and I for one would have been happy to snatch anyone's hand off offering that at the start of the season when the tighter player embargo was imposed.

Sluffy wrote:

Norpig wrote:Someone got some new rose tinted glasses for Christmas i see 

I admire your optimism Sluffy but i just can't see it happening, i want us to stay up but we just don't score enough goals and i can't see that changing if Parky continues with the hoofball.

Well the facts show (and not my opinion) that over the last 13 league games we are on form the 11th best club in our league.

Sometimes we need to look at the wider picture - we might well be playing shite - but are there more teams playing even shiter than we are?  And if the answer is yes in more than three cases over the season then we will stay up!

Of course a lot can happen between now and May but we are only one win away from being outside the bottom three at Christmas and I for one would have been happy to snatch anyone's hand off offering that at the start of the season when the tighter player embargo was imposed.

As I said, we are all on the same side... and yes, we have improved our position to have caught up with the pack at the bottom... something that was not thinkable during the first 10 games.  We are not being naysayers... rather adding up and hoping the gossip about losing players, not having enough money to finish the season, or trimming the squad without bringing in players is just not true!  We have been in relegation form before and with one or two players coming in, have turned it around.  Hope is not lost!  We just hope KA has the money to keep us up and Parky has done his homework and works with players who know how to pass.  Exciting football brings fans back... wins also help!  Matches like we played against Burton will not win anyone over... and keep us from being out of the relegation zone during Christmas.  No one is denying we lost to a team with two high priced players who beat us... but we can complain about no shots on target.  We don't want to emulate the first ten games again... and Parky does need to sort it out.  Again, I harp on the lack of a team leader... don't you wish we had a young Kevin Davies out there urging the team on?  Happy Holidays and let's get 3 or 4 more points by New Year's Day.

Was freezing my nuts off at the Riverside with 700 hardcore fans. Didn’t expect anything,hoped for a point. Lucky deflection by a ten million pound player for 1-0.
Then 2-0 by a 16 million pound player. The same side beat us 3-0 at the Reebok while playing 3-5-2 formation. Since implementing 4-2-3-1 we have obtained 17 points.
It might not be pretty but it’s been effective. Who knows if we stay in the Championship we could get snapped up. Money to buy players. Promotion.
But fuck me Bolton fans would complain because they were staying up on the last day of the season. You can’t please everyone. I was watching a Birmingham vlog,where there fans are pulling there hair out as they have got rid of Carson Yeung now got owners who know little about the game ,brought in Zola,then Redknapp spent £16 million on strikers and then he left they gave ste coterill a 2 and half years contract and they’re resigned to relegation. Stop bitching get to the Macron New Year’s Day let’s try get 20-000 and cheer the lads on.

Was freezing my nuts off at the Riverside with 700 hardcore fans. Didn’t expect anything,hoped for a point. Lucky deflection by a ten million pound player for 1-0.
Then 2-0 by a 16 million pound player. The same side beat us 3-0 at the Reebok while playing 3-5-2 formation. Since implementing 4-2-3-1 we have obtained 17 points.
It might not be pretty but it’s been effective. Who knows if we stay in the Championship we could get snapped up. Money to buy players. Promotion.
But fuck me Bolton fans would complain because they were staying up on the last day of the season. You can’t please everyone. I was watching a Birmingham vlog,where there fans are pulling there hair out as they have got rid of Carson Yeung now got owners who know little about the game ,brought in Zola,then Redknapp spent £16 million on strikers and then he left they gave ste coterill a 2 and half years contract and they’re resigned to relegation. Stop bitching get to the Macron New Year’s Day let’s try get 20-000 and cheer the lads on.

Wanderers for 45 wrote:Was freezing my nuts off at the Riverside with 700 hardcore fans. Didn’t expect anything,hoped for a point. Lucky deflection by a ten million pound player for 1-0.
Then 2-0 by a 16 million pound player. The same side beat us 3-0 at the Reebok while playing 3-5-2  formation. Since implementing 4-2-3-1 we have obtained 17 points.
It might not be pretty but it’s been effective. Who knows if we stay in the Championship we could get snapped up. Money to buy players. Promotion.
But fuck me Bolton fans would complain because they were staying up on the last day of the season. You can’t please everyone. I was watching a  Birmingham vlog,where there fans are pulling there hair out as they have got rid of Carson Yeung now got owners who know little about the game ,brought in Zola,then Redknapp spent £16 million on strikers and then he left they gave ste coterill a 2 and half years contract and they’re resigned to relegation.  Stop bitching get to the Macron New Year’s Day let’s try get 20-000 and cheer the lads on.

Lol

Norpig wrote:i want us to stay up but we just don't score enough goals and i can't see that changing if Parky continues with the hoofball.

I've been to countless matches under Parky's reign and been quite mortified by the style of play. I don't deny that. But can you honestly say that with this group of nobodies - loan players that haven't started shaving yet, cheap freebies, etc. - he could give some other strategy a go, and if it didn't work, everybody would stand back and say: fair play, we tried something different, we're still shit, we've just gotta see out this season and let Parky start rebuilding again for League One.

There's literally no scenario in which people would sit back and watch us be this shit without finding a bone to pick with Parkinson. Or is there?

Admittedly it could all change just like that if a certain two or three players got injured or sold, but we're actually in with a chance of staying up. Not a massive one, but we're a point adrift as it stands, not ten or fifteen which was the way it was going up until a few months ago.

Wanderers for 45 wrote:Stop bitching get to the Macron New Year’s Day let’s try get 20-000 and cheer the lads on.

Hello Ken.

doffcocker wrote:I've been to countless matches under Parky's reign and been quite mortified by the style of play. I don't deny that. But can you honestly say that with this group of nobodies - loan players that haven't started shaving yet, cheap freebies, etc. - he could give some other strategy a go, and if it didn't work, everybody would stand back and say: fair play, we tried something different, we're still shit, we've just gotta see out this season and let Parky start rebuilding again for League One.

You massive knob. Against Sheffield Wednesday we were superb, the game could have gone either way but we won and created a shitload of chances.

The players have proved they can do it, but Parky still insists on this spoiling tactic THAT DOESN'T FUCKING WORK.

Natasha Whittam wrote:

doffcocker wrote:I've been to countless matches under Parky's reign and been quite mortified by the style of play. I don't deny that. But can you honestly say that with this group of nobodies - loan players that haven't started shaving yet, cheap freebies, etc. - he could give some other strategy a go, and if it didn't work, everybody would stand back and say: fair play, we tried something different, we're still shit, we've just gotta see out this season and let Parky start rebuilding again for League One.

You massive knob. Against Sheffield Wednesday we were superb, the game could have gone either way but we won and created a shitload of chances.

The players have proved they can do it, but Parky still insists on this spoiling tactic THAT DOESN'T FUCKING WORK.

But we've already had this debate, in which I routinely tore you a new bumhole.

You keep going back to this Sheffield Wednesday match, as though Parky - just as a one off, for the hell of it - 12 games into the season decided we'd play a completely different system, then despite that we won and played entertaining football for the first time, reverted straight back to the proven boring ineffective system of old.

But this foolish logic of yours is beside the point. You admit that in that match the game could have gone either way. In other words, a lot of it boiled down to luck not just Parkinson's tactics. So supposing we'd have got unlucky and lost. Would you have been on here that night urging everyone to cut Parky some slack? Would you balls.

doffcocker wrote:

Norpig wrote:i want us to stay up but we just don't score enough goals and i can't see that changing if Parky continues with the hoofball.

I've been to countless matches under Parky's reign and been quite mortified by the style of play. I don't deny that. But can you honestly say that with this group of nobodies - loan players that haven't started shaving yet, cheap freebies, etc. - he could give some other strategy a go, and if it didn't work, everybody would stand back and say: fair play, we tried something different, we're still shit, we've just gotta see out this season and let Parky start rebuilding again for League One.

There's literally no scenario in which people would sit back and watch us be this shit without finding a bone to pick with Parkinson. Or is there?

Admittedly it could all change just like that if a certain two or three players got injured or sold, but we're actually in with a chance of staying up. Not a massive one, but we're a point adrift as it stands, not ten or fifteen which was the way it was going up until a few months ago.

If he actually tried something new and we started to actually play a bit of football then i think most fans wouldn't give him any more shit than he already gets if we did get relegated.
What do we have to lose? All this blind optimism that we just keep doing what we are doing and it will come good is just wishful thinking, we've had a bit better form of late but we are still in the bottom 3 and as i said we have little actual goal threat.
People will just not pay good money to watch us at the moment so KA is deluding himself if he thinks people are going to turn up to watch us play route one and start with 1 striker and 2 holding midfielders at home.

MartinBWFC wrote:

T.R.O.Y wrote:Sluffy’s right in as much as Parkinson has the odds stacked against him heavily in regards to avoiding relegation, and going away to a club like ‘boro anything other than defeat would be a surprise.

Millwall are an interesting comparison, on the one hand they prove the point that Parky should be doing better (although he’s still operating under more difficult constraints than them).

On the other, Neil Harris plays a very similar style of ‘pragmatic’ (aka one dimensional) football as the one Parky is getting flack for favouring.

One thing I’m not reading is what Parkinson should be doing? His options are limited from what I can see.

He could start by trying a different system, it is no coincidence that our possession stats are extremely poor, the fact we lose possession so quickly is down to hoofing it to one striker who then gives away easy possession, hence the opposition mounting attack after attack, it is my opinion that he knows no other way of playing.

He did try a different system, but since changing to 4231 with Henry and Pratley at the base of the midfield our points per game has been good, so why change it? I think he's actually found a system that gets results.

I'd have ALF coming off the bench more often, but obviously there's more to this than meets the eye otherwise he'd be on the bench. Overall though there's not much more he can do with the limited options he has.

There's the old adage about "making your own luck" and there's some truth to it as demonstrated by Boro for example if you have more attempts on goal then it stands to reason that statistically you'll get more lucky deflections and conversely if you sit back and concede possession so that the game is played nearer your goal then you have less chance of getting a lucky break yourself and if you do it's more likely to be too far away from the opposition's goal to have an impact on the scoreboard.

And whilst I agree that our tactics could improve - and be adapted for different game situations - there is some hope. If you take Sluffy's argument about the improvement after 11 games the way that fixtures are arranged means we'll play those same teams we played at the beginning again towards the end of the season but with a theoretically improved team. I'm not holding out much hope for a miracle signing or two in January that will transform us, so the question is what improvements will the rest make? All is not lost yet, but our situation is pretty dire - which in all honesty most of us expected when the season began. That said, we were just about sunk after 11 games so we have to be pleased with the fact that we are at least back in contention.