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Sense of relief

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1Sense of relief Empty Sense of relief on Fri Apr 19 2019, 19:46

rammywhite

rammywhite
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
Now that its confirmed that we're down(and effectively have been for weeks) there's almost a sense of relief that its all over. Three games to go and they mean very little so we might see something different- perhaps even a goal or two.
New  owners as well even though they bring a history with them that continues to cast a shadow over the club. The lack of comment on here shows the disengagement that most  fans  have currently- I think that ,at the moment,basically most of us couldn't give a shit.
But I'm quite cheerful as we'll see a whole bunch of new players ,perhaps a sprinkling of youth, and the potential to do better next season with hopefully a  new and competent manager. 
Lets face it- this has been a nightmare season after the first 4 games and next season has to be better.
Well, at least I'm hopeful that it will be

2Sense of relief Empty Re: Sense of relief on Fri Apr 19 2019, 20:14

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
It's been a hellish season, and I'll be glad to see the back of it. On field matters have been bad enough, but the mess that's been unfolding behind the scenes has left a sour taste, and one that won't easily be rinsed away.
We can only hope that the new broom sweeps clean, and we can go forward with a bit of a spring in our step, hopefully with a few new players, and certainly a new manager.

3Sense of relief Empty Re: Sense of relief on Fri Apr 19 2019, 20:18

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
The whole club needs a lift, and its time for a new regime. Can’t fault the job Parkinson has done, I don’t blame him for us going down this year - but we need positivity and new ideas now. So time to move on.

4Sense of relief Empty Re: Sense of relief on Fri Apr 19 2019, 20:31

Growler


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
It's horrible getting outclassed most weeks, more so when we're only playing the likes of Preston, Wigan and Brentford in the second tier.

It was nigh on impossible to be successful with the wage bill Ken would pay, we'll have to see if anything changes under new ownership.

But yeah, id rather be 10th in Div 3 and watch us draw with Shrewsbury than be bottom of Div 2 and watch us get thrashed by Norwich.

5Sense of relief Empty Re: Sense of relief on Fri Apr 19 2019, 20:40

MartinBWFC

MartinBWFC
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:It's horrible getting outclassed most weeks, more so when we're only playing the likes of Preston, Wigan and Brentford in the second tier.

It was nigh on impossible to be successful with the wage bill Ken would pay, we'll have to see if anything changes under new ownership.

But yeah, id rather be 10th in Div 3 and watch us draw with Shrewsbury than be bottom of Div 2 and watch us get thrashed by Norwich.
I think most would be happy with that scenario next season, but you'd be looking to better it season on season, under Parkinson I think we'd move backwards, we need to build from scratch, get sustainable, recruit young lower league players, and progress steadily, to do that you need a good scouting network, and management team, at the moment we have neither.

6Sense of relief Empty Re: Sense of relief on Sat Apr 20 2019, 14:01

doffcocker

doffcocker
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:The whole club needs a lift, and its time for a new regime. Can’t fault the job Parkinson has done, I don’t blame him for us going down this year - but we need positivity and new ideas now. So time to move on.

Completely agree.

Whether you rate Parky or not, the idea of playing that brand of football next season just completely underwhelms nearly everyone, myself included.

It would be nice just to start a new chapter, get the fans back on side, give the impression that things are changing for the better, even though it could get worse.

7Sense of relief Empty Re: Sense of relief on Sat Apr 20 2019, 15:01

gloswhite

gloswhite
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
The first indication of what the fans are expecting, or hoping for, will be reflected on the number of  season tickets bought. Of course before all this happens, we've got the closed season shenanigans to get through. Might be quite interesting.

8Sense of relief Empty Re: Sense of relief on Sun Apr 21 2019, 08:45

Buellix

Buellix
David Ngog
David Ngog
I watched 4 of the first 6 games and was amazed at how negative we set up even the ones we won. The game at Reading is probably the worst football match I have seen and we won.
I said then I would not be back with that man in charge of the team, I hope he is a long way away fro this club next season.

I would like to thank Parkinson as he has saved me a shitload of money this season.

9Sense of relief Empty Re: Sense of relief on Sun Apr 21 2019, 15:12

Cajunboy

Cajunboy
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
It's going to be a very interesting close season, I just hope it's not for all the wrong reasons.

I still wonder if the Bassini deal will be completed, or if there will be another twist in the KA departure.

10Sense of relief Empty Re: Sense of relief on Sun Apr 21 2019, 15:24

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:It's going to be a very interesting close season, I just hope it's not for all the wrong reasons.

I still wonder if the Bassini deal will be completed, or if there will be another twist in the KA departure.

Oh there are definitely twists and turns to come yet.

Bassini was very publicly at the match - yet technically he isn't the owner (on paper at least in the eyes of the EFL) until he's passed the Fit and Proper Person test - and that includes proving his money - and to date the players have still not been paid.

Also I've flagged up about the Zat Knight lookalike he's been seen at the club on two separate occasions with Bassini - Matt Southall - who I suspect is the man to follow to see where the money is coming from

I sort of suspect that Anderson and Team Bazzini are waiting on the other to blink first to pay the wages before the takeover is finally done.

Just my thoughts though.

11Sense of relief Empty Re: Sense of relief on Sun Apr 21 2019, 19:01

wessy

wessy
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
First things first, rubber stamp new owner, pay wages, pay creditors, pay wages again, appoint board, replace management team, publish player budget/ new manager and team, then we can possible enjoy the football.

12Sense of relief Empty Re: Sense of relief on Sun Apr 21 2019, 21:23

finlaymcdanger

finlaymcdanger
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
Let’s not count out administration - as things stand it’s still the most likely outcome for me.

Loads of posturing and gamesmanship going on at the moment and the hard nosed players involved don’t lose their nerve very easily.

Suspect we’re far from out of the woods just yet

13Sense of relief Empty Re: Sense of relief on Mon Apr 22 2019, 00:38

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Let’s not count out administration - as things stand it’s still the most likely outcome for me.

Loads of posturing and gamesmanship going on at the moment and the hard nosed players involved don’t lose their nerve very easily.

Suspect we’re far from out of the woods just yet

I don't really know where we stand on Administration?

What do we know?
- Someone has to put us into it
- Somebody has to pay the running costs whilst we are in it.
- Someone has to pay to meet the EFL's criteria to come out of it.

Who can put us in it?
- According to Rigby at the ST, just Davies estate and HMRC but that's clearly wrong.
- The owner (Anderson still is I presume) can, and according to Howard,
- So too can outstanding creditors such as Warburton and James and/or substitutes to the two outstanding winders, such as for instance Macron (sportswear) or the house builder,  etc.

What does it cost to be in Admin?
- Well how long is a piece of string?  It obviously depends on the length of time the club is in Admin - it could be days, it could be months, several months!
- Rigby stated it would cost around £750k (but he also said that was not including wages.
- Howard says it would be around £1m per month for about 3 months.

What does it cost to come out of Admin?
- Howard tells us that the EFL rules and regs requires all secured creditors to be paid in full (so that's James, Warburton and Anderson) and everyone else a minimum of 25% - people like HMRC, the Town Hall, Heathcote (if they already haven't been paid?), etc, etc.  Howard suggested that would be around £20m (iirc?).

Why would people NOT put us in Admin?
- Well people on the winders such as HMRC want a fixed one off amount (£1.2m) so there's no point in them pushing for Admin if the costs to do so would be more to them than simply getting their full amount owed to them back from liquidation.
- A logical argument also could be made for James and Warburton as per the HMRC point above - but they could also turn their money owed into putting equity into the club itself - and thus reduce the cost of coming out of Admin by up to those amounts (James £5.5m, Warburton £2.5m).  Whether they would do so is another matter and even if they did would whoever is buying the club from Admin still have enough to cover all the other outstanding liabilities as well ongoing wages and showing proof to the EFL to fund next season (I have in my mind from somewhere that new owners had to provide proof of funds to keep the club going for three seasons - but maybe I've made that up?)
- Eddie's estate, on the basis that to put the club in Admin they have to reclaim ownership of it from the outstanding debt on the load secured against Anderson's share ownership shares.  Taking the club back also means taking on ALL THE debts as well.  Hardly likely to do that unless they had an immediate buyer, which leads me on to my next point...

Company Voluntary Agreement's (CVA or Pre Pack Administration).
- This is basically when someone gets all the creditors agreement for the company to go into Admin and immediately come out of it again as everybody has agreed to what they will settle for as per the penny in the pound owed to them.  Howard explained that the EFL no longer allows that.  I think this is where the rule about secured creditors receiving 100% owed to them and a minimum of 25% to unsecured comes from.
- If however CVA CAN  meet those targets then I guess going down the CVA route would be permissible with the EFL?

Other Odds and Ends
- Hillary at the last Winder pleaded that if necessary the judge put the club in Admin rather than liquidate it?  I can only assume that implied Anderson (as owner) would fund the club whilst in Admin - which considering all the non payments mounting up, seemed a bit contradictory - so something more technical that I don't understand must be available to the judge to act on?
- Ken claimed he was going to put the club into Admin so Team Basran could buy it - just before Bassini did!  How convenient and all that.  Was it true, could he have done so?  I guess so.  He was (is?) still the owner and if someone went down the CVA path and the EFL is happy with it, then why not?
- Even if Bassini does become the owner I guess there's nothing stopping him putting the club into Admin - even on the day EFL gave him permission!  It would look very bad though!
- Does Ken want anybody looking into his dealings if Admin/Liquidation happens as Howard implied a lot of 'creative' accountancy at work shall we say!  Not to say there has though or that anything at all is untoward under his ownership.


I'm non the wiser myself after putting all this down in words as to if we possibly would/would not go into Admin anytime soon but at least I've listed things as best as I can as to the options there are, as I understand them to be.

14Sense of relief Empty Re: Sense of relief on Mon Apr 22 2019, 02:14

luckyPeterpiper

luckyPeterpiper
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
Shrt version: Administration can only be entered if the main creditors (HMRC and football creditors plus a few others) agree to it. Ken is at the moment the only person who can put us into admin but creditors can force it by applying for a winding up order which the club cannot pay off. At that time Ken would have two options, appoint an administrator in order to try and sell the club as a 'going concern' or he could simply opt to liquidate the entire business. In truth the second option is not viable since the total debt is apparently far higher than the total worth of the entire business so Ken would be left with no asset and still be in debt.

Ken could appoint an insolvency practicioner who could recommend admin should he/she believe there's no viable way foward withour it but it would still be his and the board's decision whether or not to do it.

Bassini has no say whatsoever until and unless he buys the club and passes the FPP which frankly is NOT a foregone conclusion given what happened at Watford. The EFL may well step in as they did with Cellino at Leeds and say he can't keep it even if he owns it.

Basically there's no real change in our circumstances as yet, we're still deep in the mire and I for one am not holding my breath that Bassini is the answer, short or long term.

15Sense of relief Empty Re: Sense of relief on Mon Apr 22 2019, 02:27

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Short version: Administration can only be entered if the main creditors (HMRC and football creditors plus a few others) agree to it. Ken is at the moment the only person who can put us into admin but creditors can force it by applying for a winding up order which the club cannot pay off. At that time Ken would have two options, appoint an administrator in order to try and sell the club as a 'going concern' or he could simply opt to liquidate the entire business. In truth the second option is not viable since the total debt is apparently far higher than the total worth of the entire business so Ken would be left with no asset and still be in debt.

Ken could appoint an insolvency practicioner who could recommend admin should he/she believe there's no viable way foward withour it but it would still be his and the board's decision whether or not to do it.

Bassini has no say whatsoever until and unless he buys the club and passes the FPP which frankly is NOT a foregone conclusion given what happened at Watford. The EFL may well step in as they did with Cellino at Leeds and say he can't keep it even if he owns it.

Basically there's no real change in our circumstances as yet, we're still deep in the mire and I for one am not holding my breath that Bassini is the answer, short or long term.

Thanks Peter but I think you are not strictly correct on the point about liquidation.

The total debt may well be more than assets but that is irrelevant as liquidation basically is turning those remaining assets to cash and settling debts at a rate of so many pennies to the pounds owed.

There is an hierarchy of payment of creditors though and the first in the queue are secured and football creditors - of which Anderson has a £5m charge on assets.

So he could welcome liquidation - be paid in full - and unsecured creditors such as HMRC and the Town Hall for instance take the loss.

I guess the question would be asked if he had deliberately allowed such unsecured debts to accrue whilst knowingly trade with the club being insolvent - in which case he might be in big trouble - but if he hasn't he walks away with his £5m and the club is no more.

16Sense of relief Empty Re: Sense of relief on Tue Apr 23 2019, 23:03

luckyPeterpiper

luckyPeterpiper
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Short version: Administration can only be entered if the main creditors (HMRC and football creditors plus a few others) agree to it. Ken is at the moment the only person who can put us into admin but creditors can force it by applying for a winding up order which the club cannot pay off. At that time Ken would have two options, appoint an administrator in order to try and sell the club as a 'going concern' or he could simply opt to liquidate the entire business. In truth the second option is not viable since the total debt is apparently far higher than the total worth of the entire business so Ken would be left with no asset and still be in debt.

Ken could appoint an insolvency practicioner who could recommend admin should he/she believe there's no viable way foward withour it but it would still be his and the board's decision whether or not to do it.

Bassini has no say whatsoever until and unless he buys the club and passes the FPP which frankly is NOT a foregone conclusion given what happened at Watford. The EFL may well step in as they did with Cellino at Leeds and say he can't keep it even if he owns it.

Basically there's no real change in our circumstances as yet, we're still deep in the mire and I for one am not holding my breath that Bassini is the answer, short or long term.

Thanks Peter but I think you are not strictly correct on the point about liquidation.

The total debt may well be more than assets but that is irrelevant as liquidation basically is turning those remaining assets to cash and settling debts at a rate of so many pennies to the pounds owed.

There is an hierarchy of payment of creditors though and the first in the queue are secured and football creditors - of which Anderson has a £5m charge on assets.

So he could welcome liquidation - be paid in full - and unsecured creditors such as HMRC and the Town Hall for instance take the loss.

I guess the question would be asked if he had deliberately allowed such unsecured debts to accrue whilst knowingly trade with the club being insolvent - in which case he might be in big trouble - but if he hasn't he walks away with his £5m and the club is no more.
sluffy in the event of liquidation HMRC wouldn't be an unsecured creditor. They'd be the primary creditor, even ahead of 'football'debts (unlike admin) and would get their money in full. the remainder (if any) would then be assigned to other creditors (at what percentage would be determined by the liquidator who is court appointed and Ken would have zero say.)

Only if ALL debts are paid in full and there was money left over would Ken get anything at all from liquidation. Given the current income vs expenditure and the aggregate size of the club's debts there's no way Ken would get anything back at all much less make a profit mate.

17Sense of relief Empty Re: Sense of relief on Tue Apr 23 2019, 23:07

luckyPeterpiper

luckyPeterpiper
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
To add, remember that BWFC is a limited liability company as things currently stand so the club and Ken are not the same entity legally speaking. Ken could liquidate and walk away without going into personal bankruptcy but he doesn't currently "own" the club in a legal sense, he's simply the majority shareholder. I believe those shares are currently being used as collateral on a loan from the Davies family so if we were to liquidate now he'd lose those shares anyway and any moneys from them to the Davies.

18Sense of relief Empty Re: Sense of relief on Wed Apr 24 2019, 01:20

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:sluffy in the event of liquidation HMRC wouldn't be an unsecured creditor. They'd be the primary creditor, even ahead of 'football'debts (unlike admin) and would get their money in full. the remainder (if any) would then be assigned to other creditors (at what percentage would be determined by the liquidator who is court appointed and Ken would have zero say.)

Only if ALL debts are paid in full and there was money left over would Ken get anything at all from liquidation. Given the current income vs expenditure and the aggregate size of the club's debts there's no way Ken would get anything back at all much less make a profit mate.

Thanks Peter but I still don't believe you to be correct.

You may want to read this which clearly shows HMRC is NOT the Primary Creditor under the Football Creditor Rule - and has not been so since 2003.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Ken is a Secured Creditor - see Company House link below - and such in liquidation will be in front of HMRC (who are unsecured) for his £5m pay out.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

It is also believed that land and property that the club owns as shot up in value recently and that the current charges against them held by the clubs secured creditors now do not reflect their current true worth and thus the selling off of the land under liquidation will raise substantial more sums than the current book value.

I am aware of limited companies and how they work and have never suggested that Ken would make a profit from liquidating the club BUT would merely allow him to get the £5m he has secured in the clubs assets.

19Sense of relief Empty Re: Sense of relief on Thu Apr 25 2019, 16:15

luckyPeterpiper

luckyPeterpiper
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
I spoke to my dad who's a Chartered Accountant and he told me that while the Football Creditor rule applies in administration it doesn't in an outright liquidation. One case in point was when Glasgow Rangers formed a "newco" using the assets of the club. The newco was almost prevented from registering at all because HMRC insisted it would not allow it to happen unless it was paid the debts owed to it by the original. The law around this in Scotland is a little different to that here and in Wales but as a direct result of the Ken Bates fiasco at Leeds and of course the later even shadier Cellino deal HMRC now has the power to prevent a liquidation if it is satisfied that the purpose of that liquidation is solely to avoid the repayment of monies owed to it. If as you say the property and land the club owns is sufficient to cover the debts they may simply block the formation of a newco until and unless all the moneys owed by the oldco to HMRC are paid in full. Portsmouth fell foul of this on their second dip into admin, originally they wanted to do what Rangers did but HMRC shut it down.

20Sense of relief Empty Re: Sense of relief on Thu Apr 25 2019, 16:36

luckyPeterpiper

luckyPeterpiper
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
OK, had a good read through the football creditor's rule and have to say I think sluffy's got it right and me and my dad are wrong. However there is an addendum that says a liquidation for the purpose of forming a newco does need to be approved by HMRC and Companies House. They can request a denial of registration for the 'newco' if they believe the liquidation is designed solely to avoid repayment of debt. However, even if they win they can't really stop the 'newco'. It can form as a Sole Trader and then later add in partners that give it Limited Liability status. The only other option for HMRC is to request a ban on particular individuals to be company directors etc but that's about all.

It's a very odd situation in which football appears to be immune to many of the financial conduct laws that govern other similar sized businesses. Effectively football has become self policing on financial matters and HMRC are pretty much powerless.

21Sense of relief Empty Re: Sense of relief on Thu Apr 25 2019, 19:32

Cajunboy

Cajunboy
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Thanks for all that, now I know how a scrambled egg feels.

22Sense of relief Empty Re: Sense of relief on Thu Apr 25 2019, 23:43

luckyPeterpiper

luckyPeterpiper
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
Sorry about that cajun. Basically it's just rehashing stuff we already knew or suspected.

As sluffy and others have said there are probably going to be quite a few more twists and turns before this is all done not least because Bassini may not pass the 'fit and proper person' test given what happened at Watford. However I'm personally hoping he and his consortium (whomever they may be) have already sounded out the EFL on this before deciding to proceed.

It may be they have and been given assurances that they'll be allowed to take over for the long term in which case this could be problem solved. Given how Bassini has been talking about three year plans I'm hopeful that this is in fact the case.

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