8/1 on two delusional former Bolton managers

doffcocker wrote:

Sluffy wrote:It wasn't though!

If he cared about the club (and not the money) he would have walked because as I've said the facts are that he led us to our worst home season in the clubs entire history - 138 years!!!

He's either got to be either completely blind to the fact that he's not very good at managing BWFC - his record since New Year 2010 is utterly appalling - or he stopped for the pay out!

It's not rocket science really working out which one it is!

QED.

He missed out on survival by a point, 12 months after leading us to our best season post-Allardyce, with long-term injuries to our two best players and a by comparison piss poor budget. From his point of view, he did an excusable job at Bolton that he was capable of putting right.

There were many opportunities to have gained more than a point throughout the season - reverting back to 4-4-2 v Wigan at home because it worked what 4 months earlier against them - stands out as a classic!

He didn't lead us to our best season post Allardyce - that is factually incorrect - Megson did in 2008/9.

As for long term injures - don't all clubs get these? More telling is what did he do about them? He got Eagles for Lee but for 18 months brought in absolutely no one at all similar as a player for Holden - surely a massive and inexcusable omission! Are you trying to tell me that Bolton are utterly and totally reliant on just ONE irreplaceable player???

As for a piss poor budget I don't recall the likes of Norwich, Swansea, West Brom, and even Wigan spending much if anything more than we did - but they all finished above us!

As for putting things right he left us what, 18th in the Championship after a quarter of the season had gone - how the hell is that evidence of his capabilities to put things right?

Apart from that good post.

Sluffy wrote:
He didn't lead us to our best season post Allardyce - that is factually incorrect - Megson did in 2008/9.

I assume your idea that he guided us to our worst home season in the club's history is fathomed on a points basis? For the sake of consistency and the concept that points are a better indication of performance than league position, I'd conclude that our best season post Allardyce was 2010/2011, when we accumulated 46 points, 5 greater than 2008/2009's effort.

The point I'm making isn't that Coyle did an excusable job (I can't stress enough how infuriating I found his performance last season from start to finish), but that that could quite possibly be the angle he took. You can't just assume that because somebody did a shit job, the only reason they stuck around was for a pay-off. By most Wanderers fans' own admissions, Coyle's a delusional bloke. It's perfectly feasible that he believed in what he was doing.

First and foremost, Coyle saved the club from financial ruin, at least for the time being. We were living the high life in the Premiership, spending money we didn't have and getting deeper and deeper into debt. He was brought on board primarily to deal with that whilst maintaining our Premiership status, in which he failed. But he did oversee one of the most savage cutbacks in the history of the game and maintained a brave face throughout. He was forced to renegotiate every players salary - not great motivation for the players. Where he couldn't strike a deal, he was forced to sell or release. 15 players left, most of whom had a role in the first team. He had a stark choice between selecting players he didn't feel were ready or sticking with whoever he thought would help us survive whilst the club recovered from the cutbacks. There are a lot of ifs and buts about it, but he nearly pulled it off - we were relegated at that miserable Stoke match on the last day of the season by a solitary goal. If he'd pulled it off it would have been a different story - such are the fine margins between success and failure. But give OC his due - we survived a 50% cutback in players wages and I'm at least grateful I still have a team to support. It could have been a lot worse but for OC.

Didn't like his tactics or selections but his job was a lot harder than it appeared on the surface.

Fine margins, are you Owen Coyle!
Very unlikely he's reduced the wage bill by half. Very unlikely he's negotiated any existing contracts down, there would be conditions in them about relegation though.
Coyles tactics throughout the year cost us points we could have easily had and thus relegated us.
Doff, league position is the measure of a successful season. Do you think being relegated on say 40 points is a better year than staying up on say 38, or winning the league on 78 points a worse one than getting 80 points and finishing say third?
Check the stats about our home record last season, most home defeats ever is just one of them!

Doff, nothing wrong with appreciation for someone (if fans feel it's due).

Coyle has had more support and tolerance than any manager I can think of in a similar position.

He obviously wasn't good enough. Many examples of this. My own is the match at Clawley. 1-0 up, 10 mins to go playing 4-5-1. OC brings on KD and goes 4-4-2. We know what happened.

doffcocker wrote:I wish Coyle well, too.

I also wish Megson well.

P.S. Just kidding about Megson.

I wish coyle every success, except if/when he brings a team to the Reebok.

Megson can go and stick his head in a bullmastiff's arse for all I care, I hope he fails... badly.

Sluffy wrote:Fine margins, are you Owen Coyle!
Very unlikely he's reduced the wage bill by half. Very unlikely he's negotiated any existing contracts down, there would be conditions in them about relegation though.
Coyles tactics throughout the year cost us points we could have easily had and thus relegated us.
Doff, league position is the measure of a successful season. Do you think being relegated on say 40 points is a better year than staying up on say 38, or winning the league on 78 points a worse one than getting 80 points and finishing say third?
Check the stats about our home record last season, most home defeats ever is just one of them!

Disagree Sluffy. The first two points are speculation although the club made it public about halving the wage bill - we'll know when the next accounts are published. League position is only a measure of success providing the club actually survives. Remember Leeds? 4th in the league and in europe one year, totally f***** the next. Surely you see the effect of wage cuts, team disruption etc on performances and thereby league position? I totally agree with you about the tactics though, despite neither of us knowing what went on in training/behind closed doors.

I can't believe that some people are trying to defend Owen Coyle. He was every bit as bad a manager as Megson, probably worse, and yet people seem to wish Coyle well but hate Megson.

Coyle may not have had the money Megson had, but he's spent a fair few quid on absolute donkeys. Can you remember a run of such poor buys by any manager at any club? David Ngog will go down in BWFC history as the worst signing ever, unless that other superstar Marvin Sordell continues on his current path of shiteness. We'd have been better keeping the £8m in our pocket and giving Klasnic a new contract.

Ridiculous tactics, a refusal to change things round, refusal to drop players out of form, always taking positives from being shite, not sorting the defence out.....I could go on. I have nothing but ill will for Owen Coyle, anyone saying they wish him well is an idiot. The guy ruined 10 years of good work, and then got a pay-off for doing so!

Wanker.

Natasha Whittam wrote:
We'd have been better keeping the £8m in our pocket and giving Klasnic a new contract.

.

As lazy as Klasnic was, we miss a player like him at the moment, a real goal poacher who is lethal inside the box.

I was willing to give Ngog a chance this season but so far has looked worse than last season, not sure if it's a confidence issue but at the moment he is 4th choice striker behind Afobe and Sordell. Eaves seems to be getting a few goals on loan at the moment.

Sluffy, I think it's a bit harsh to say OC didn't care about the club because he would have quit if he did. We all need the income from a job, quitting would have been terrible for his career - it's like saying he knew he was not up to the task and he quits when the going gets tough. Gartside is to blame, he should have sacked him this time last year when we were losing game after game. But I agree OC was not good enough, it's such a relief he had gone and interesting to see what DF can do.

I do wonder where OC's career will go now - not sure what club will want him next. His reputation has suffered big time for how he did these last two years. He was linked with arsenal, celtic and Liverpool not that long ago, now he probably would struggle to get a championship job.

Michael Bolton wrote:We all need the income from a job, quitting would have been terrible for his career job.

Didn't you say you were quitting Specsavers?

Natasha Whittam wrote:Maybe if he gets the Ipswich job he'll try and sign Kevin Davies in January?

I'll drive him down just to make sure.

bwfc71 wrote:
I'll drive him down just to make sure.

You don't have a car.

Reebok: Can't say I understand exactly what you mean with the above comment?

Natasha Whittam wrote:I can't believe that some people are trying to defend Owen Coyle. He was every bit as bad a manager as Megson, probably worse, and yet people seem to wish Coyle well but hate Megson.

Coyle may not have had the money Megson had, but he's spent a fair few quid on absolute donkeys. Can you remember a run of such poor buys by any manager at any club? David Ngog will go down in BWFC history as the worst signing ever, unless that other superstar Marvin Sordell continues on his current path of shiteness. We'd have been better keeping the £8m in our pocket and giving Klasnic a new contract.

Ridiculous tactics, a refusal to change things round, refusal to drop players out of form, always taking positives from being shite, not sorting the defence out.....I could go on. I have nothing but ill will for Owen Coyle, anyone saying they wish him well is an idiot. The guy ruined 10 years of good work, and then got a pay-off for doing so!

Wanker.

Responding on behalf of "some people" I'd say OCs tactics, selections and signings were suspect although I think it's a bit early to be getting on Marvin's case. But if pointing out the economic circumstances under which Coyle was forced to work is tantamount to "defending him" then you need to separate objective analysis from subjective emotional speculation.

Bad tactics etc are a sign of a bad manager regardless of the resources he has available. But don't blame him for lack of resources.

wanderlust wrote:

Bad tactics etc are a sign of a bad manager regardless of the resources he has available. But don't blame him for lack of resources.

He had resources. He was able to spend £8m on two useless strikers, £2m for Wheater to sit on the bench, millions on wages for bench warmers.

He didn't have the funds of Megson, but he had a decent chunk. I'm glad we didn't have a lot of cash, Coyle would have been offering £15m for Michael Owen.

Natasha Whittam wrote:

wanderlust wrote:

Bad tactics etc are a sign of a bad manager regardless of the resources he has available. But don't blame him for lack of resources.

He had resources. He was able to spend £8m on two useless strikers, £2m for Wheater to sit on the bench, millions on wages for bench warmers.

He didn't have the funds of Megson, but he had a decent chunk. I'm glad we didn't have a lot of cash, Coyle would have been offering £15m for Michael Owen.

Ngog - seemed like a punt at the time and unless he finds his shooting boots will turn out to be what you claim. But he has decent touch and can run all day. Not a striker IMO and probably a waste of money unless he adapts.

Sordell - great prospect. I'm happy with that signing and if we manage to hang on to him will probably give us a good ROI.

Wheater - didn't like him at first but he did OK and injuries have meant we haven't had VFM as yet.

So yes, he had resources but only if he got rid of players and he did plenty of that - especially high-earners.

I reckon his buying policy was largely panic-driven. If you plan to make cutbacks you have to be confident your remaining resources are adequate to keep you going through the inevitable tough patch that comes with it and with Holden etc sidelined he bought what he could to try to muddle through.

wanderlust wrote:

I reckon his buying policy was largely panic-driven. If you plan to make cutbacks you have to be confident your remaining resources are adequate to keep you going through the inevitable tough patch that comes with it and with Holden etc sidelined he bought what he could to try to muddle through.

The board should have seen what Ngog was - a panic buy - and sacked Coyle long before he got the chance to waste millions more on Sordell. I disagree about Sordell, he has done nothing to suggest he will score goals....but worst of all his attitude stinks. The fact he was also left out of two squads by Phillips suggests he is not a liked player.

Sluffy wrote:
Doff, league position is the measure of a successful season. Do you think being relegated on say 40 points is a better year than staying up on say 38, or winning the league on 78 points a worse one than getting 80 points and finishing say third?

Two factors determine league position - one's own performance and that of others.
Naturally we'd all rather finish in x position on y points than in x-1 position on y+1 points, but from a critical point of view, the latter's performance is the better of the two.

So would you say getting 40 points and being relegated is a better season than getting 38 points and staying up?
I think I know what the vast majority of people would consider to be the more successful one would be.