What Dougie thought - Blackburn

Great win and this is what Freedman thought -

I am genuinely pleased for Dougie tonight. I think he deserves the credit for the way we set up, the way we played and for the result. I don't think he's the right man to take us forward as you know but I am a great believer in giving credit where it's due and today it's due to him in spades. 

I just wish he could make our OWN players perform this way WITHOUT having to bring in loanees at the last minute to get us out of a jam he created in the first place. That may sound a bit sour grapes but the truth is we should never have been in this position with the squad that started the season. 

But enough about that for now. 

Dougie, I hope you've got a big grin on your face and a cold drink in your hand 'cos you really deserve to kick back and relax tonight. You got just about every single thing right today and the lads did you and us proud. Good job Mr Freedman.                   

luckyPeterpiper wrote:I just wish he could make our OWN players perform this way WITHOUT having to bring in loanees at the last minute to get us out of a jam he created in the first place. That may sound a bit sour grapes but the truth is we should never have been in this position with the squad that started the season. 

But do you really think that a combination of 2 from Eaves, Craig Davies and N'gog would be as effective as the Juke and Mason have been the last couple of games?

bwfc1874 wrote:

luckyPeterpiper wrote:I just wish he could make our OWN players perform this way WITHOUT having to bring in loanees at the last minute to get us out of a jam he created in the first place. That may sound a bit sour grapes but the truth is we should never have been in this position with the squad that started the season. 

But do you really think that a combination of 2 from Eaves, Craig Davies and N'gog would be as effective as the Juke and Mason have been the last couple of games?

N'gog isn't our player so i don't worry about him. 

Personally I think a Cravies Beckford Combo could work well or since Mason is out of contract in the summer if we could bag him and play a Cravies Mason partnership it would function just as well as Juke and Mason. 

I know we've had injuries in attack but the fact is we had the players in place last August to play the system Dougie is now using. However he refused to do so and it cost us dearly. He stubbornly clung to his preferred setup and style when it was patently obvious it didn;t work with the personnel he had and that in my opinion is the mark of a bad manager. 

I think it's no coincidence that our "run" last season was also on the back of good performances from loanees like Dawson but you can't build a team for the long term that way. Dougie has failed to motivate the men who are here every week for a long time and failed to capitalise on what strengths we had. I won't go into all the details again here as I've said the same thing on several different threads already but for my money Dougie is poor at assessing the strengths and weaknesses of his existing squad and fails to adapt his approach to those factors. We don't have the money to buy only the players that can play his way and he should be willing to admit it when his strategy is clearly failing which he refused to do all season. 

I personally don't hold him responsible for the off field problems, he inherited a financial mess and no one can deny it but he still had a solid core of players with premier league experience that he signally failed to use effectively. His stubborn insistence that 4-4-2 is old fashioned and should never be used in the modern game coupled with his constant habit of playing players out of their best position in a bid to make them fit his vision was asinine at best. 

I take nothing away from him for last week or today but in my opinion it took far too long for him to adjust his approach and the fact that yet again we are being hauled away from the relegation zone by players we don't own when we should have been in the top half of the table before they arrived is telling its own tale. I don't say we should have been top of the league and sweeping all before us aside but we certainly should have been much higher than nineteenth and much further than four points away from the drop zone in January. 

After eighteen months we've made no visible progress in terms of league position over when Coyle was sacked and for my money the blame for THAT lies at Dougie's feet. Loan signings are all well and good IF you get the right players EVERY time but no one should be banking on them to save you year after year yet this appears to be the case with Dougie. We got lucky in that Juke and Mason and Danns are all doing well just as McNaughton, Dawson and Feeney did last season but luck runs out and if we're not careful we could STILL go down this season. Charlton may be nine points back but they have three games in hand and we still have tough games to come starting with Leeds. 

Dougie has to accept responsibility for our position and for our performances, the good as well as the bad and sadly the latter has far outweighed the former on his watch.

I wonder if all managers are subject to this kind of thing from fans.

For E.G I wonder if Man Utd fans say "Look i like MATA but I want Moyes to get CLEVERLY and JONES to PERFORM"

Or Everton "I like Lukaku and Barry but I wanted Martinez to get Darron Gibson to perform"

again, as if. 

what i think is they are happy he's looking to bring in better players to replace those that have most probably peaked. 

I like Craig Davies but he has zero upside left IMO same with Eaves, his upside is limited, I think dougie prides himself on seeking out players who he thinks are undervalued elsewhere. The fact is we severely overvalue the players we have.

i can't see Cravies playing for us again to be honest, if we can afford the Juke i would sign him permanently, i can see him and Beckford forming a great partnership

Hipster_Nebula wrote:I wonder if all managers are subject to this kind of thing from fans.

For E.G I wonder if Man Utd fans say "Look i like MATA but I want Moyes to get CLEVERLY and JONES to PERFORM"

Or Everton "I like Lukaku and Barry but I wanted Martinez to get Darron Gibson to perform"

again, as if. 

what i think is they are happy he's looking to bring in better players to replace those that have most probably peaked. 

I like Craig Davies but he has zero upside left IMO same with Eaves, his upside is limited, I think dougie prides himself on seeking out players who he thinks are undervalued elsewhere. The fact is we severely overvalue the players we have.

You may be right Hipster but I disagree with your assessment of Cravies. I think he's got a lot to offer with the right man in support and he hasn't had a fair chance to show that with his injury and Dougie's preferred system of play. 

I don't hate Dougie Freedman, I never have and never will hate any manager personally BUT it seems very clear to me that he isn't good enough to do the job in the long term. He's too stubborn and we can't afford a man who can't get the best out of players over a full season. I think your point about Moyes and Martinez is misplaced, the players you mention ALL belong to those clubs while DF only seems able to inspire short term loanees to do well for a couple of months and then they disappear back to their parent clubs. I know we disagree on this and will probably never agree but we should never have been in the bottom half with the squad he had at his disposal in August let alone two points off the drop zone in January. 

Dougie's had some luck with loan signings to date but luck is a dangerous thing to rely on. I fear that next season will be a repeat of this if he remains in charge but we might wind up being unable to borrow players that perform or he could pick the wrong ones and we could find ourselves in League One as a result. To be honest I'm not yet sure we'll avoid relegation THIS time. I know it's unlikely but Charlton are only nine points back with THREE games in hand while we have two very tough away games ahead of us. The wrong set of results could easily see us hovering over the trap door again in a fortnight.

Norpig wrote:i can't see Cravies playing for us again to be honest, if we can afford the Juke i would sign him permanently, i can see him and Beckford forming a great partnership

Norpig I disagree but only because I think Juke would be too expensive at the moment. He has three years left on his deal and I think with our limited resources our first priority has to be the defence, specifically finding a proper Left Back. 

I think Cravies and Beckford could make a dangerous combo and with Mason out of contract in the summer if we could bag him on a free he'd be a very useful player for us too. 

If we have the money to strengthen the defence AND buy Jutkiewicz then I would of course be delighted to see him join us permanently but sadly I can't see us being able to do that.

luckyPeterpiper wrote:

Hipster_Nebula wrote:I wonder if all managers are subject to this kind of thing from fans.

For E.G I wonder if Man Utd fans say "Look i like MATA but I want Moyes to get CLEVERLY and JONES to PERFORM"

Or Everton "I like Lukaku and Barry but I wanted Martinez to get Darron Gibson to perform"

again, as if. 

what i think is they are happy he's looking to bring in better players to replace those that have most probably peaked. 

I like Craig Davies but he has zero upside left IMO same with Eaves, his upside is limited, I think dougie prides himself on seeking out players who he thinks are undervalued elsewhere. The fact is we severely overvalue the players we have.

You may be right Hipster but I disagree with your assessment of Cravies. I think he's got a lot to offer with the right man in support and he hasn't had a fair chance to show that with his injury and Dougie's preferred system of play. 

I don't hate Dougie Freedman, I never have and never will hate any manager personally BUT it seems very clear to me that he isn't good enough to do the job in the long term. He's too stubborn and we can't afford a man who can't get the best out of players over a full season. I think your point about Moyes and Martinez is misplaced, the players you mention ALL belong to those clubs while DF only seems able to inspire short term loanees to do well for a couple of months and then they disappear back to their parent clubs. I know we disagree on this and will probably never agree but we should never have been in the bottom half with the squad he had at his disposal in August let alone two points off the drop zone in January. 

Dougie's had some luck with loan signings to date but luck is a dangerous thing to rely on. I fear that next season will be a repeat of this if he remains in charge but we might wind up being unable to borrow players that perform or he could pick the wrong ones and we could find ourselves in League One as a result. To be honest I'm not yet sure we'll avoid relegation THIS time. I know it's unlikely but Charlton are only nine points back with THREE games in hand while we have two very tough away games ahead of us. The wrong set of results could easily see us hovering over the trap door again in a fortnight.

Just to be clear Barry and Lukaku are both loans at Everton, so they don't belong to them, Many have said those 2 players have been the catalyst for them this season, I don't see anyone criticising Martinez for exploiting the loan market. 

and as for Dougie "getting lucky" in the loan market... why is it just "luck." Maybe, god forbid, he has genuine ability to spot players who have been undervalued or under-utilised elsewhere? Don't get the desperation to make out everything good thats happened is in spite of the manager.

Guarantee if, for eg, Steve Mach at Derby brought in Juke and had similar results we'd have people saying "wish we hd a mnger lik steve mclareen" 

Won't argue with the criticism of Dougie's tactics though, I think it's clear he's got a long way to go in that area.

it seems to me that Cravies and Dougie have fallen out so i just can't see him playing again, Mason on a free would be a good signing. We do have a lot of high earner out of contract at the end of the season so surely that will free up a big chunk of cash?

Don't forget that Tierney should be back for next season as well and could even come back before the end of this season.

I do like Cravies from the limited times i have seen him but when he joined Preston he made a big point of saying he had told Dougie he thought he should be playing so i can't see a way back for him

Hipster_Nebula wrote:

luckyPeterpiper wrote:

Hipster_Nebula wrote:I wonder if all managers are subject to this kind of thing from fans.

For E.G I wonder if Man Utd fans say "Look i like MATA but I want Moyes to get CLEVERLY and JONES to PERFORM"

Or Everton "I like Lukaku and Barry but I wanted Martinez to get Darron Gibson to perform"

again, as if. 

what i think is they are happy he's looking to bring in better players to replace those that have most probably peaked. 

I like Craig Davies but he has zero upside left IMO same with Eaves, his upside is limited, I think dougie prides himself on seeking out players who he thinks are undervalued elsewhere. The fact is we severely overvalue the players we have.

You may be right Hipster but I disagree with your assessment of Cravies. I think he's got a lot to offer with the right man in support and he hasn't had a fair chance to show that with his injury and Dougie's preferred system of play. 

I don't hate Dougie Freedman, I never have and never will hate any manager personally BUT it seems very clear to me that he isn't good enough to do the job in the long term. He's too stubborn and we can't afford a man who can't get the best out of players over a full season. I think your point about Moyes and Martinez is misplaced, the players you mention ALL belong to those clubs while DF only seems able to inspire short term loanees to do well for a couple of months and then they disappear back to their parent clubs. I know we disagree on this and will probably never agree but we should never have been in the bottom half with the squad he had at his disposal in August let alone two points off the drop zone in January. 

Dougie's had some luck with loan signings to date but luck is a dangerous thing to rely on. I fear that next season will be a repeat of this if he remains in charge but we might wind up being unable to borrow players that perform or he could pick the wrong ones and we could find ourselves in League One as a result. To be honest I'm not yet sure we'll avoid relegation THIS time. I know it's unlikely but Charlton are only nine points back with THREE games in hand while we have two very tough away games ahead of us. The wrong set of results could easily see us hovering over the trap door again in a fortnight.

Just to be clear Barry and Lukaku are both loans at Everton, so they don't belong to them, Many have said those 2 players have been the catalyst for them this season, I don't see anyone criticising Martinez for exploiting the loan market. 

and as for Dougie "getting lucky" in the loan market... why is it just "luck." Maybe, god forbid, he has genuine ability to spot players who have been undervalued or under-utilised elsewhere? Don't get the desperation to make out everything good thats happened is in spite of the manager.

Guarantee if, for eg, Steve Mach at Derby brought in Juke and had similar results we'd have people saying "wish we hd a mnger lik steve mclareen" 

Won't argue with the criticism of Dougie's tactics though, I think it's clear he's got a long way to go in that area.

Apologies Hipster, I really thought they were permanent signings but I guess they're on full season deals? I don't look to say good things happen in SPITE of Dougie, I agree so far his eye for loan signings has proven to be very good indeed but surely you can see why I feel it's wrong to rely on them to get us out of a jam every year? What if Juke had come in and broken his leg ten minutes into his debut? The Mason saga was painful to watch, what if we hadn't been able to complete the deal after all?

I know we can what if everything that happens but for my money Dougie is far too slow to react when things are not working and far too reliant on loan signings when we do have some real quality here if it's used properly. 

Overall I think the loan market can be a good thing for clubs like ours BUT it should NOT be the only string in our bow. With Dougie it seems it is and while I don't deny finances make his life difficult surely his first priority is to get the best out of the players we DO own and use loanees to improve the squad not save it.

I give Dougie full credit for both the Watford and Rovers performances just as I gave him credit for the other (sadly too few) good performances earlier in the season but I feel he also has to take the blame for the bad ones. In my opinion the bad has outweighed the good too much for me to want him to remain as manager. It's not personal, I just don't think he's good enough at the job.

True, agree with a lot of that, he's got to strike a balance. 

Think he has tried to do that by adding "talent" to the dev squad that he can oversee, not sure thats been fruitful so far frankly but that'll take patience sadly. 

But it's a results game at the end of the day, individual loans playing well won't save his job If he can't set the team up to defend so a lot of this debate may be academic long term.