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Brexit negotiations

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361 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Nov 29 2017, 18:30

bwfc71

avatar
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
T.R.O.Y wrote:James O'Brien nailing it: 
We’re paying tens of billions of pounds to leave the world’s largest free trade area while surrendering all of our ability to define its rights & regulations.

All so that we can hopefully start negotiating an inferior arrangement with the world’s largest free trade area.

:like:

362 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Nov 30 2017, 21:27

xmiles

avatar
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Let's hope they hand the billion pound bribe back!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-42179387

363 Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Dec 04 2017, 19:30

xmiles

avatar
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
And now the DUP are stopping a deal from being reached because they don't want to be different from the rest of the UK! In which case maybe they will legalise abortion and gay marriage and hand back the billion pound bribe.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42217735

364 Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Dec 04 2017, 21:26

gloswhite

avatar
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
xmiles wrote:And now the DUP are stopping a deal from being reached because they don't want to be different from the rest of the UK! In which case maybe they will legalise abortion and gay marriage and hand back the billion pound bribe.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42217735
Nicely put. Agree 100%

365 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Dec 05 2017, 10:44

rammywhite

avatar
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
'Ulster says No'

How many times have we heard that over the last 100 years or so.
10 individuals virtually holding the UK to ransom. And you could even say holding 500 million European citizens to ransom. We were almost there!!

A plague on their house!!

366 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Dec 05 2017, 12:01

wanderlust

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Who'da thought anything could go wrong?

Apart from half the country that is.

367 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Dec 05 2017, 12:24

T.R.O.Y


David Lee
David Lee
wanderlust wrote:Who'da thought anything could go wrong?

Apart from half the country that is.

Indeed, reality bites I think even most Brexiteers (the non-crayon munching ones of course) would agree now that this is an absolute shambles and we won't be better off out.

368 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Dec 05 2017, 14:29

wanderlust

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
T.R.O.Y wrote:
Indeed, reality bites I think even most Brexiteers would agree now that this is an absolute shambles and we won't be better off out.

Most Brexiteers I speak to agree it's a shambles but still believe - or at least still say publicly that we should leave. Whilst this is probably some form of denial, they argue that there was no way of knowing that it would be so difficult and it is the process rather than the principle that is faulty. 
Now whilst most Remainers and nearly all the "experts" knew full well what a disaster awaits us, it seems that the Leavers are becoming increasingly willing to accept a deal that doesn't deliver what they thought they were voting for and seem quite comfortable with accepting widespread job losses, cutbacks to services, a broken economy and years of debt and austerity rather than admitting they were duped.
This really p****s me off because they were very vocal at the time of the referendum, so why aren't they marching on Downing Street now to reiterate what they want to a Government that has repeatedly said they won't get what they voted for and yet is ploughing ahead regardless?

369 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Dec 05 2017, 16:07

xmiles

avatar
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
wanderlust wrote:
T.R.O.Y wrote:
Indeed, reality bites I think even most Brexiteers would agree now that this is an absolute shambles and we won't be better off out.

Most Brexiteers I speak to agree it's a shambles but still believe - or at least still say publicly that we should leave. Whilst this is probably some form of denial, they argue that there was no way of knowing that it would be so difficult and it is the process rather than the principle that is faulty. 
Now whilst most Remainers and nearly all the "experts" knew full well what a disaster awaits us, it seems that the Leavers are becoming increasingly willing to accept a deal that doesn't deliver what they thought they were voting for and seem quite comfortable with accepting widespread job losses, cutbacks to services, a broken economy and years of debt and austerity rather than admitting they were duped.
This really p****s me off because they were very vocal at the time of the referendum, so why aren't they marching on Downing Street now to reiterate what they want to a Government that has repeatedly said they won't get what they voted for and yet is ploughing ahead regardless?

Basically people find it hard to admit that they were wrong. No matter how much evidence is presented to them they will refuse to accept it. Even if we were reduced to living in mud huts in five years time some brexit fans would still be saying it's OK because we've taken back control.

370 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Dec 05 2017, 16:13

Cajunboy

avatar
Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Some people would be glad of a mud hut.

371 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Dec 05 2017, 16:29

gloswhite

avatar
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
There have been a couple of bumps in the road that I wasn't expecting, otherwise things are going in the right direction. When you consider how many problems the remainers have caused with their constant moaning and delaying tactics, its a wonder we've even got to where we are, (not to mention the uncompromising stance of the EU).
Unfortunately, the whole country is now being held to account by a very small group of people, who, I have to say, do have a a legitimate argument, especially when you realise their whole existence has been based on unity with the rest of the UK. Many would think the strings in this are being pulled by the EU, (myself included), and that , all of a sudden, N. Ireland doesn't matter.

372 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Dec 05 2017, 16:42

T.R.O.Y


David Lee
David Lee
gloswhite wrote:There have been a couple of bumps in the road that I wasn't expecting, otherwise things are going in the right direction. When you consider how many problems the remainers have caused with their constant moaning and delaying tactics, its a wonder we've even got to where we are, (not to mention the uncompromising stance of the EU).
Unfortunately, the whole country is now being held to account by a very small group of people, who, I have to say, do have a a legitimate argument, especially when you realise their whole existence has been based on unity with the rest of the UK. Many would think the strings in this are being pulled by the EU, (myself included), and that , all of a sudden, N. Ireland doesn't matter.

The ‘remoaners’ haven’t caused any delays, every one of the governments Brexit bills has passed through parliament almost unopposed, you can’t use that as an excuse. 

Similarly moaning about the EU being stoic in their lack of compromise was something most of us saw coming, Farage and co’s line about French Champagne and German cars was all well and good but most of us realised that the EU would champion not making exiting an attractive option over keeping a couple of corporations happy.

373 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Dec 05 2017, 21:37

gloswhite

avatar
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
T.R.O.Y wrote:
gloswhite wrote:There have been a couple of bumps in the road that I wasn't expecting, otherwise things are going in the right direction. When you consider how many problems the remainers have caused with their constant moaning and delaying tactics, its a wonder we've even got to where we are, (not to mention the uncompromising stance of the EU).
Unfortunately, the whole country is now being held to account by a very small group of people, who, I have to say, do have a a legitimate argument, especially when you realise their whole existence has been based on unity with the rest of the UK. Many would think the strings in this are being pulled by the EU, (myself included), and that , all of a sudden, N. Ireland doesn't matter.

The ‘remoaners’ haven’t caused any delays, every one of the governments Brexit bills has passed through parliament almost unopposed, you can’t use that as an excuse. 

Similarly moaning about the EU being stoic in their lack of compromise was something most of us saw coming, Farage and co’s line about French Champagne and German cars was all well and good but most of us realised that the EU would champion not making exiting an attractive option over keeping a couple of corporations happy.
Similarly moaning about the EU being stoic...


I wasn't moaning, and was careful not to call the remainers remoaners, however, no doubt you'll see what you want to see.

374 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Dec 05 2017, 22:10

T.R.O.Y


David Lee
David Lee
Hmm bit disappointed you’re quibbling over semantics rather than addressing the points. No offence was meant by using the word moan in either instance. More interested in how remainers have supposedly held up the process, or that the EU acting as one and not compromising is a surprise.

375 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Dec 05 2017, 23:03

gloswhite

avatar
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
It wasn't a surprise, we were all aware that the main point they wanted to get across to other members was that it would not be easy to get out of the EU. They achieved this by holding out for the full, (and fair), payment of those commitments made. How many of the remaining countries could afford the massive payout we are committed to? 
On the crest of a wave, and dealing with a weakened government, gone was the goodwill, and fairness. Instead, they went further, and insisted on the ECJ holding sway in the UK for European immigrants. I don't know of any country allowed to make decisions affecting the law within another country.  
What direction the talks on the border will take, nobody knows.
The payment is how I thought it would go, eventually, but I feel they've just asked for too much with the other two items. The problem is that the demands are now driving the discussions down a cul-de-sac, and isolating influential factions, with a possible horrendous outcome for all. The UK government has bent over backwards, but they are still being pushed, and I believe if things aren't brought back to reality, instead of politic playing, then the UK will have no option but to walk away, and it won't be down to the UK negotiating team.
Having said all that, I wouldn't be surprised if, all of a sudden, solutions are found, and all will move ahead with great clapping and singing of praises.

376 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Dec 06 2017, 14:36

wanderlust

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I struggle to see how anyone who voted to leave can still think it's going in the right direction though. 

All the key promises made by the Leave campaign have already been broken*, so are they saying that the referendum leave manifesto is now irrelevant despite it being the platform on which a slender majority was achieved?

* £350 million a week for the NHS. Debunked as a lie the day after the result with Farage saying it was a mistake and everyone else back-pedalling like crazy.
* Brexit will reduce immigration. Remember Farage's "Breaking Point" campaign poster? As Tory Dannan said on Newsnight "We never said there would be a radical decline - we just want some control." and "anyone expecting immigration to come down will be disappointed". Subsequently all Brexit leaders have backed away from suggesting there will be any reduction whatsoever.
* Brexit won't affect the economy. The pound has plummeted, the economy has shrunk and France has overtaken the UK to become the 5th largest economy in the world.  Already over £200 billion has been wiped off the value of the UK stock market. And the worst is yet to come.
* Brexit wouldn't affect funding for the UK's joint research and science programmes. You'd have thought this would be essential if the UK was ever going to achieve the Tory's objectives of establishing the UK as a world leader in the sciences, but apparently it's not as the Government has ignored calls to match the EU's funding until 2020 to keep current programmes going. Meanwhile British scientists continue to lose their funding.
* That Brexit will reduce the cost of energy bills. Immediately debunked when it was recognised that most of our energy is imported and we're losing our EU funding for energy development. Government are yet to admit that household energy bills will rise substantially when we leave the EU.
* Turkey is about to join the EU and that will create another 5 million migrants. So UK relinquishes it's right to sanction Turkey joining, but that's OK as it's not likely to happen in our lifetime and anyway Ergodan has since suggested that Turkey may pull out of the joining process altogether.
* We are still going to have the option of staying in the single market. France and Germany have made it quite clear that we can't have access to the market without contributing to it or allowing freedom of movement.

I'm not sure if I've missed any of them out but it seems to me that everything that people voted for has turned out to be a complete and utter lie.

So how can anyone suggest it's going in the right direction?
And if they do, what direction is it, because it's obviously not the one that won a mandate from the British people.

377 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Dec 06 2017, 15:40

xmiles

avatar
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
The problem is that brexit voters just won't admit they were wrong no matter how much hard factual evidence is presented to them.
It is exactly the same in America where hardly any Trump voters have stopped supporting Trump despite all the evidence that he is a loose cannon.

378 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Dec 06 2017, 16:59

wanderlust

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
xmiles wrote:The problem is that brexit voters just won't admit they were wrong no matter how much hard factual evidence is presented to them.
It is exactly the same in America where hardly any Trump voters have stopped supporting Trump despite all the evidence that he is a loose cannon.
I don't think it's a matter of being right or wrong, more that Leave voters have not protested about the fact that the Government is not capable of delivering what they voted for/what was promised.

If a party stood on the platform of say promising to cut taxes and improve services and then as soon as they were elected turned round and said they were not going spend anything on improving services and were going to increase taxes, you'd think that the people who voted for them would be rightfully outraged. As would the people who didn't vote for them. So why aren't Leave voters kicking off? 

There is some suggestion that a lot of people who voted to leave don't usually vote or participate in the democratic process and now that they have been let down have returned to grumbling behind the scenes but this can't be verified as researching Leave voters' current feelings about Brexit is taboo.

379 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Dec 06 2017, 17:37

xmiles

avatar
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
wanderlust wrote:
xmiles wrote:The problem is that brexit voters just won't admit they were wrong no matter how much hard factual evidence is presented to them.
It is exactly the same in America where hardly any Trump voters have stopped supporting Trump despite all the evidence that he is a loose cannon.
I don't think it's a matter of being right or wrong, more that Leave voters have not protested about the fact that the Government is not capable of delivering what they voted for/what was promised.

If a party stood on the platform of say promising to cut taxes and improve services and then as soon as they were elected turned round and said they were not going spend anything on improving services and were going to increase taxes, you'd think that the people who voted for them would be rightfully outraged. As would the people who didn't vote for them. So why aren't Leave voters kicking off? 

There is some suggestion that a lot of people who voted to leave don't usually vote or participate in the democratic process and now that they have been let down have returned to grumbling behind the scenes but this can't be verified as researching Leave voters' current feelings about Brexit is taboo.

The polls that have been taken show very little evidence of leave voters regretting voting leave. Given that there has been fairly extensive coverage of the negative consequences of leaving the EU I still put this down to the general reluctance of people (not just brexit voters) to admit they are wrong no matter what the evidence. It is part of the well known confirmation bias phenomenon where people look for evidence to support a view they have already taken and dismiss contrary evidence. One example of this is Gove's dismissal of the views of "experts".

380 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Dec 06 2017, 17:48

Reebok Trotter

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
The Times reports that the DUP were told a slightly untrue version of the EU deal, that May was not being totally honest with them and hoped to sign the deal publicly before exposure. May was apparently caught out following an early press release by an EU minister to an Irish newspaper that declared the UK Govt had surprisingly capitulated and given up Northern Ireland. No surprise at the DUP response which seems responsible imho.

381 Re: Brexit negotiations on Wed Dec 06 2017, 23:12

gloswhite

avatar
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
All in all, the last couple of days shows the government are panicking, and are becoming increasingly desperate to start trade talks. I still believe we should leave, and nothing will change that, but even I can't believe how badly things are being handled. I've got to the stage where I don't listen to the news as much as I did, even two weeks ago, because its utterly unbelievable how anything that can go wrong, has gone wrong, and not just Brexit. 
I'm sitting in my foxhole, waiting for either the big bang, or the outbreak of peace. Right now, it could go either way.

382 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Dec 07 2017, 11:40

gloswhite

avatar
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
I was wondering to myself why recent politics have been so crazy.

Taking a step back, I realise that our politicians, all parties, are all pretty inept in actually making, and implementing, true political decisions. Most have the foresight of Lemmings, with the same skill sets.

For the last 40 years or so, since the increasing influence being exerted by the EU, NATO, and the UN, and our need to evade responsibility for possibly wrong decisions, our politicians have lost the initiative. 
I believe they have actually become more introverted, preferring the sniping and backbiting and the playing political games, to governing, and in so doing, have lost the art of true negotiation, and government.
Examples of this mindless and petty behaviour being the collapse of the Labour Party, and its lopsided resurrection, the poor state of the Tories, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer concerning himself with something as petty as a pasty tax, bedroom tax, along with dubious decisions when going to war, etc. (no doubt we can all think of something).
To me it shows that we, and in particular the government, aided and abetted by our dependence on social media to make decisions by mob rule, have lost the ability to look past the next day, and actually make plans, and more importantly, stick to them. 
Petty politics, immediate responses to whoever is shouting the loudest, or just showing we will jump according to the media, is not the way forward. Our lamentable progress, as a society, as well as a political entity, is dispiriting. 
I believe Brexit has highlighted just how bad our political system, especially its players, have become, but I also believe that the public has changed to something different. Always, whingeing, complaining, seeking faults in absolutely everything, accusing, looking for immediate fixes, and in its drive to be 'fair' to every colour, creed, or belief, actually trampling over many peoples ideals and aspirations. 
To me, it has always been the minorities, who, because they are minorities, shout the loudest, (nothing wrong with that). Ordinarily, the government would be aware of this, and plan accordingly, but not nowadays it appears. As a result we are rattling down the track on a runaway train, where the minority, (including politicians), have influence well beyond their number, and the silent majority are taken for granted, and even ignored. We can see the result with us bouncing from pillar to post, politically, socially, and financially.
I believe that taking back our sovereignty, (for a start), will help focus our government on its true responsibilities, away from EU influences, (and yes, we do need them, but not on their terms), and will allow us to get back to those problems that need lasting solutions, suitable for the UK,whether its immigration, security, legal issues, or whatever. 
Hopefully, in the meantime, our politicians will gain a modicum of respect for themselves, for others, and the British public, and actually learn their trade to a much higher degree, and start performing as they should.
(Apologies for the ramble, but I had to say it)

383 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Dec 07 2017, 12:08

Reebok Trotter

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
gloswhite wrote:I was wondering to myself why recent politics have been so crazy.

Taking a step back, I realise that our politicians, all parties, are all pretty inept in actually making, and implementing, true political decisions. Most have the foresight of Lemmings, with the same skill sets.

For the last 40 years or so, since the increasing influence being exerted by the EU, NATO, and the UN, and our need to evade responsibility for possibly wrong decisions, our politicians have lost the initiative. 
I believe they have actually become more introverted, preferring the sniping and backbiting and the playing political games, to governing, and in so doing, have lost the art of true negotiation, and government.
Examples of this mindless and petty behaviour being the collapse of the Labour Party, and its lopsided resurrection, the poor state of the Tories, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer concerning himself with something as petty as a pasty tax, bedroom tax, along with dubious decisions when going to war, etc. (no doubt we can all think of something).
To me it shows that we, and in particular the government, aided and abetted by our dependence on social media to make decisions by mob rule, have lost the ability to look past the next day, and actually make plans, and more importantly, stick to them. 
Petty politics, immediate responses to whoever is shouting the loudest, or just showing we will jump according to the media, is not the way forward. Our lamentable progress, as a society, as well as a political entity, is dispiriting. 
I believe Brexit has highlighted just how bad our political system, especially its players, have become, but I also believe that the public has changed to something different. Always, whingeing, complaining, seeking faults in absolutely everything, accusing, looking for immediate fixes, and in its drive to be 'fair' to every colour, creed, or belief, actually trampling over many peoples ideals and aspirations. 
To me, it has always been the minorities, who, because they are minorities, shout the loudest, (nothing wrong with that). Ordinarily, the government would be aware of this, and plan accordingly, but not nowadays it appears. As a result we are rattling down the track on a runaway train, where the minority, (including politicians), have influence well beyond their number, and the silent majority are taken for granted, and even ignored. We can see the result with us bouncing from pillar to post, politically, socially, and financially.
I believe that taking back our sovereignty, (for a start), will help focus our government on its true responsibilities, away from EU influences, (and yes, we do need them, but not on their terms), and will allow us to get back to those problems that need lasting solutions, suitable for the UK,whether its immigration, security, legal issues, or whatever. 
Hopefully, in the meantime, our politicians will gain a modicum of respect for themselves, for others, and the British public, and actually learn their trade to a much higher degree, and start performing as they should.
(Apologies for the ramble, but I had to say it)

Well put Bob!

384 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Dec 07 2017, 12:12

xmiles

avatar
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
gloswhite wrote:I was wondering to myself why recent politics have been so crazy.

Taking a step back, I realise that our politicians, all parties, are all pretty inept in actually making, and implementing, true political decisions. Most have the foresight of Lemmings, with the same skill sets.

For the last 40 years or so, since the increasing influence being exerted by the EU, NATO, and the UN, and our need to evade responsibility for possibly wrong decisions, our politicians have lost the initiative. 
I believe they have actually become more introverted, preferring the sniping and backbiting and the playing political games, to governing, and in so doing, have lost the art of true negotiation, and government.
Examples of this mindless and petty behaviour being the collapse of the Labour Party, and its lopsided resurrection, the poor state of the Tories, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer concerning himself with something as petty as a pasty tax, bedroom tax, along with dubious decisions when going to war, etc. (no doubt we can all think of something).
To me it shows that we, and in particular the government, aided and abetted by our dependence on social media to make decisions by mob rule, have lost the ability to look past the next day, and actually make plans, and more importantly, stick to them. 
Petty politics, immediate responses to whoever is shouting the loudest, or just showing we will jump according to the media, is not the way forward. Our lamentable progress, as a society, as well as a political entity, is dispiriting. 
I believe Brexit has highlighted just how bad our political system, especially its players, have become, but I also believe that the public has changed to something different. Always, whingeing, complaining, seeking faults in absolutely everything, accusing, looking for immediate fixes, and in its drive to be 'fair' to every colour, creed, or belief, actually trampling over many peoples ideals and aspirations. 
To me, it has always been the minorities, who, because they are minorities, shout the loudest, (nothing wrong with that). Ordinarily, the government would be aware of this, and plan accordingly, but not nowadays it appears. As a result we are rattling down the track on a runaway train, where the minority, (including politicians), have influence well beyond their number, and the silent majority are taken for granted, and even ignored. We can see the result with us bouncing from pillar to post, politically, socially, and financially.
I believe that taking back our sovereignty, (for a start), will help focus our government on its true responsibilities, away from EU influences, (and yes, we do need them, but not on their terms), and will allow us to get back to those problems that need lasting solutions, suitable for the UK,whether its immigration, security, legal issues, or whatever. 
Hopefully, in the meantime, our politicians will gain a modicum of respect for themselves, for others, and the British public, and actually learn their trade to a much higher degree, and start performing as they should.
(Apologies for the ramble, but I had to say it)

I agree with some of the things you say but as you would expect not all of them.

The major disagreement I have is that I don't believe that politicians have fundamentally changed in recent years. They (apart from a few visionaries) have always been concerned with the short term and getting re-elected. What is different is how exposed politicians are to media coverage. The constant exposure means politicians have to deal with questions all the time and they have learned to be evasive which makes them appear even more untrustworthy.
I simply cannot see how "taking back our sovereignty, (for a start), will help focus our government on its true responsibilities, away from EU influences, (and yes, we do need them, but not on their terms), and will allow us to get back to those problems that need lasting solutions, suitable for the UK,whether its immigration, security, legal issues, or whatever". Politicians won't change just because we leave the EU. All the concerns you have will remain - the only difference will be that the Daily Mail and Sun can no longer blame the EU.

385 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Dec 07 2017, 12:34

wanderlust

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Good points Glos however I would add a loss of integrity to the charge of ineptitude. I genuinely feel that having power is more important than the good of the country in many politicians minds these days - a situation worsened in recent years since undelivered promises have become the norm and challenging outright lies has all but disappeared. Basically they can say almost anything and get away with it so increasingly they are making bold statements that they can't substantiate in order to grab power and having done so are almost immune to criticism and censure.
May is a good example.

386 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Dec 07 2017, 12:43

wanderlust

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

387 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Dec 07 2017, 16:57

okocha

avatar
Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
wanderlust wrote:Good points Glos however I would add a loss of integrity to the charge of ineptitude. I genuinely feel that having power is more important than the good of the country in many politicians minds these days - a situation worsened in recent years since undelivered promises have become the norm and challenging outright lies has all but disappeared. Basically they can say almost anything and get away with it so increasingly they are making bold statements that they can't substantiate in order to grab power and having done so are almost immune to criticism and censure.
May is a good example.
Well said, Wander. Ministers just pass things off as fake news. Vague soundbites add to the sense of disillusion amongst the public, too. Trump's shiftiness and lies should not be an example for governments to copy.

388 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Dec 08 2017, 13:28

gloswhite

avatar
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
wanderlust wrote:Good points Glos however I would add a loss of integrity to the charge of ineptitude. I genuinely feel that having power is more important than the good of the country in many politicians minds these days - a situation worsened in recent years since undelivered promises have become the norm and challenging outright lies has all but disappeared. Basically they can say almost anything and get away with it so increasingly they are making bold statements that they can't substantiate in order to grab power and having done so are almost immune to criticism and censure.
May is a good example.
Absolutely agree Wander, apart possibly with the last sentence. It would seem that the PM has finally started to do what was expected of her, and I think in this particular case, it was more than just keeping her power, (which we all know will be gone by the next election).

389 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Dec 08 2017, 13:35

Norpig

avatar
John McGinlay
John McGinlay
My facebook page has erupted with fury due to, as my right wing facebook friends put it, a capitulation and they want May's head on a pole  Laughing

390 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Dec 08 2017, 14:06

wanderlust

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Norpig wrote:My facebook page has erupted with fury due to, as my right wing facebook friends put it, a capitulation and they want May's head on a pole  Laughing
There will be plenty of Poles to choose from seeing as she's agreed they can all stay.

The reaction is not surprising other than I'm amazed they weren't kicking off much earlier.
The deal struck today includes a reciprocal arrangement whereby EU citizens living and/or working in the UK (and UK citizens in the EU) will have their rights to live, work and study protected.

If that isn't bad enough for the anti-immigration lobby, the deal includes reunification rights so that their relatives who don't live in the UK can join them in the future.

One of the key planks of Brexit (many would argue the main plank of Brexit!) has just been used to whack Leave voters in the chops.

Another plank - the "divorce bill" - has also been agreed at an eye-watering £35 to £40 billion. More here.

And May has made these concessions without any discussion of a trade deal.

With all the cards played, and no assessment of the impact on UK industry undertaken Brexit is only going in one direction - dragging the country down the pan with it.

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