Israel at War

Not really a topic I tend to be interested in, there's always seems to be shit happening over there - and to be honest it is impossible to claim either side (Israel or Palestine) have behaved impeccably over the years to each other.

This time though it is different.

Something big happened.

Palestine (Gazza) made a massive (in relative terms for that conflict) attack on Israel, this morning.

I thought it was nothing from reading the news headlines but browsing my sources on the Ukraine war, it turns out that there are scores of Israeli dead, soldiers and civilians, and an army camp has been overrun.

Why are the Ukrainians bothered, well it seems that Israel was on the cusp of supplying their famous Iron Dome air defence systems to them, which Ukraine had been begging of them since early on in their war.

The view (from the few sources I generally follow) is that Russia is behind the Palestine attack on Israel, in order to stop Iron Dome and other Israeli military aid to Ukraine happening.

Could just be bollocks of course but the Palestine attack today has been well organised, obviously pre-planned, well co-ordinated and well armed and supplied - and all this under the nose of the Israeli security service who usually have their finger on the pulse about these things.

Also, I know this will sound odd, but today happens to be Putin's birthday, and it seems to be a big thing for significant symbolic events to deliberately take place on the day - for instance Ukraine blew up the Kerch Bridge a year ago today.

I've seen a number of videos of dead Israeli's both military and civilian, captured soldiers and power glider and drone attacks, destroyed Israeli tanks (well one of them at least) and other unpleasantness - but I won't post them up here for two reasons, the first is that some of them really are unpleasant, and if people really wanted to see them, they aren't that difficult to find them themselves.  The second is that I simply don't know if they are genuine - ie if the videos are from this morning or from weeks, months or years ago.

Of course an armed civilian militia from Gazza isn't going to defeat the Israel army, so the attack is intended for other reasons - maybe it is linked to potential military aid to Ukraine - but as usual a lot of people are going to die and suffer.

For what?

It is hard to imagine that mankind is nearly a quarter of the way through the twenty-first century and we still act as barbarically as we have always done - and I guess always will?

And we think of ourselves as civilised.

Yeah right...

Fat Geordie tw@t's always kicking off.

wanderlust wrote:Fat Geordie tw@t's always kicking off.

Pardon?

Analysis
Posted at 13:03

Hard to describe how unprecedented this is

Paul Adams
Diplomatic correspondent

It is hard to describe just how unprecedented today’s developments are.

Not only is this likely to be the worst intelligence failure since the 1973 Yom Kippur war (and the timing is no accident – it’s 50 years almost to the day), but rarely, if ever, has Israel lost control of its own towns.

The scenes from Sderot and other communities around the Gaza Strip, with Palestinian gunmen apparently roaming the streets at will, kidnapping and killing civilians, will send the deepest shockwaves throughout Israel.

That, of course, is the point. Hamas has tried numerous tactics in the past, from suicide bombs to tunnels into Israel and even “incendiary kites”.

But the Gaza-based militants have never tried anything remotely this audacious before. By their standards, this was an astonishingly sophisticated - and, yes, brutal - act of hybrid warfare, using hundreds of rockets as the prelude to a mass breakout at multiple points along the normally impregnable fence.

The civilians of Gaza must now brace themselves for Israel’s inevitable response. Air strikes are just the prelude.

Gazans know what’s coming, because they’ve seen it many times before. But with some in Israel saying it’s now time to eradicate Hamas altogether, everyone knows the coming days or weeks will be very tough.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67037895

In previous invasions of Palestine, Israel has conquered the land but eventually stopped in the realisation that they have to provide somewhere for the Palestinians to live - just as the British helped create the State of Israel to provide somewhere for the Jewish diaspora to live.
The Palestinian diaspora is also spread far and wide and generates support from many countries mainly Sunni states although the Shia are supported by Russia's ally Iran via Hezbollah.
The key question is where - or even if they will stop this time after the atrocities committed. If they don't stop at some point there will be the biggest refugee crisis for years.
Difficult to sympathise with either party - Hamas for dragging innocent Palestinians into a war they cannot win or Israel for allowing the Zionists to take control and suppress the Palestinians in the first place. This particular non-Zionist Jewish Rabbi (appended to the Gerashchenko video) may come across as naive, but he has a point:

The Israeli issue is simply impossible to resolve.

For those of you who don't understand the background  it goes like this.

Following WWI the Ottoman empire which ruled all this area and lands around it (now what we know as Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine) was disbanded and divided up by the winning side - the UK, France, and the USA, and who created the countries, we know of today but  NOTE NOT ISRAEL at this time!

Back in those days we didn't care what the 'natives' thought and we divided it up as we thought best (for ourselves!) - and that's why the Kurds and the Jews were not given lands of their own.

After WWII and the Holocaust of the Jewish people the winning side, the UK, France, and the USA again, belatedly decided to set aside land for the Jews - but there was no longer a blank map to include them into - instead they decided that Palestine had to give up a chunk of itself and Israel could go there instead.

So you now have two 'nations' fighting over the same land, both believing it belongs to them.

If that isn't bad enough you've got the religious clash between Arabs and Jews - and Israel is surrounded by Arab Muslims from all sides and the sea on the other.

The political solution was one country two states (basically both sides need to learn to live together side by side).

Clearly it doesn't work.

How do you resolve that peacefully?

Up to now you can't and from time to time it boils over.

This time world politics have fundamentally shifted, Russia has formed alliances with Iran (and Syria) who has pledged to wipe Israel off the face of the planet.

Iran backs Hamas and clearly have helped them plan and action all that has happened over the last two days.

It clearly helps Russia too - and further down the line China who wants to invade Taiwan.

Unfortunately the world has started to become a dangerous place to be these days and how events unfold in Israel/Palestine will possible lead to it becoming worse still.



As for Wanderlust posting up a video of a random rabbi (does he never learn?) just ignore that - as it doesn't matter what the rabbi was saying, as Hamas stated aim is to ethnically cleanse Palestine of all Israelis (Zionist or simply peace loving Jews) as the senseless slaughter of over 250 people attending a music festival close to the Gazza enclave clearly evidences.

I do believe that Palestine needs it's own land but the way Hamas have gone about it is sickening and will only cause them more pain when Israel retaliates fully. They've already confirmed the electric and water has been cut off in Gaza.

Norpig wrote:I do believe that Palestine needs it's own land but the way Hamas have gone about it is sickening and will only cause them more pain when Israel retaliates fully. They've already confirmed the electric and water has been cut off in Gaza.

Palestine HAS it's own land.

Most of it is what Israel now calls Israel!!!

The land Israel was 'given' (and taken off Palestine whose land it was!)

This was how it started out...

the whiteish area being Israel, the West Bank and Gazza being Palestine



This is what happened since and how it looks today, with Israel in control of the West Bank and Gaza AND the Golan Heights from Syria.




Clearly there is a massive problem here that has been imposed on the area from  western 'empire' days.

There is now no solution to it - either people accept it and live happily together or there is a war until one side is completely destroyed forever.

And that is the same reason why Russia attacked Ukraine to wipe out its culture and people forever.

You can see why other nations mistrust the west when on one hand we back Israel to basically take over Palestine and on the other stop Russia to do exactly the same with Ukraine.

History as a justification for land ownership is dubious.
The Zionist justification for owning the land is based on the Israelites defeating the Canaanites in biblical times.
Equally it could be argued that western Russia including Moscow and St Petersburg is part of the Ukranian empire as it was ruled by the Kyivan Rus based in Kiev - Vikings who settled there in the 9th century controlling the trade routes between the north and the Byzantine Empire.
Neither premise holds much water.

As regards peace in the Middle East the only way forward is to find a solution whereby Palestinians and Israelis have the same rights and autonomy because as long as Israel imposes control over the lives of Palestinians, radicalism will flourish.

wanderlust wrote:History as a justification for land ownership is dubious.
The Zionist justification for owning the land is based on the Israelites defeating the Canaanites in biblical times.
Equally it could be argued that western Russia including Moscow and St Petersburg is part of the Ukranian empire as it was ruled by the Kyivan Rus based in Kiev - Vikings who settled there in the 9th century controlling the trade routes between the north and the Byzantine Empire.
Neither premise holds much water.

As regards peace in the Middle East the only way forward is to find a solution whereby Palestinians and Israelis have the same rights and autonomy because as long as Israel imposes control over the lives of Palestinians, radicalism will flourish.

History as a justification for land ownership is completely wrong - I wasn't saying that, I don't know where you got the idea I was?

It should be those who live there that decide how they choose to be governed but that leads to all sorts of problems for the minorities who don't want to be governed that way.

There's plenty of current examples, the recent troubles in Nagomo-Karabakh, Kosovo/Serbia, Kashmir, Russia's invasion of Ukraine, China's intimidation of Taiwan and of course Israel and Palestine - in a funny sort of way you could even add Brexit to that list.

Israel/Palestine is somewhat different in the sense that Israel was imposed on Palestine by a third party without Palestine having a voice.

My point was that it was totally irrelevant bringing Zionist into the issue as the Palestinians want ALL Israeli's out whether they are Zionist or not, or even if every Zionist had treated them fairly and squarely since day one.

There is no answer to Israel/Palestine simply because both sides have powerful international backers who have geopolitical self-interests there.

There was a hope by the USA to get Israel and Saudi together in the thinking of 'we have the same shared enemy (Iran) so we should become friends' but Russia's recent close ties to Iran and their involvement in Syria after America's influence waned in the Middle East, particularly with Saudi over the Khashoggi murder, seems to have put a halt to that.

And your solution (like mine above) is really too naive and simplistic in their idealism.  

Let's take Brexit as an example - the majority voted for it (including... well I'll let that one go for now!) but what a disaster it has been.  Look at what has happened in South Africa since the 'whites minority' lost power.  In Hong Kong the majority had and still wanted an independence from China, they got steamrollered.  I'm sure the majority in Afghanistan don't want the Taliban if there was free elections (50% of the voters must be women and they have no future other than to be bred and treated as the possessions of men).

I don't have a lasting solution, if the Palestinian's were treated as equals and Israel/Palestine one country, then Palestine would win the election and simply force the Israeli's out of the country.

In one sense that is the right solution, the Israeli's were 'forced' on to Palestine in the first place, but it only leads to further problems down the line.

I simply don't see a solution that works for everyone unfortunately - otherwise it would have been put in place years ago.

Sluffy wrote:

History as a justification for land ownership is completely wrong - I wasn't saying that, I don't know where you got the idea I was?

This is a forum.
Why on earth do you think I was talking to you?
I just say what I want to say - nothing to do with you whatsoever even if you are deluded enough to think everything is about you.

We can't even keep the peace on Nuts, so the Middle East is in big trouble.

wanderlust wrote:

Sluffy wrote:

History as a justification for land ownership is completely wrong - I wasn't saying that, I don't know where you got the idea I was?

This is a forum.
Why on earth do you think I was talking to you?
I just say what I want to say - nothing to do with you whatsoever even if you are deluded enough to think everything is about you.

Because you were clearly replying to me...!!!

There's only been 3 posts since your Rabbi's video on Zionism, I posted two of them, both about the history behind the conflict, and both about how the history of the ownership of the land has changed and brought firstly Palestine, then later Israel into being!

The only other post was Norpig's Palestine needing to have its own land - which it now doesn't because Israel has taken it off them and negated their historical claim to it!

I also was the one to mention Russia and even brought to your attention Anton Gerashchenko previously, whose video you posted, as one of the reliable sources to follow on the Ukraine war!

I must have been deluded then because obviously all of that wasn't in anyway in your mind when you said 'what you wanted to say'.

You just can’t resist bringing Brexit into everything can you Sluffy, even the bloody Gaza conflict and leaving the EU being a disaster is only your view along with the other Remainiacs who will do anything to find excuses to downplay it. I’m not going to even try to deny that the opportunities from leaving haven’t been advanced, it’s bloody criminal what our politicians have done so far and we know very well that the EU will do everything they can to complicate and frustrate matters. Anyway, this is a thread about what’s happening in Gaza so can we at least stick to that? 

On the plus side I actually thought your very concise and accurate outline of the Middle East situation was excellent and explains why the problem is as it is. Like you and Lusty, I see no solution to the problem and feel as you do that with so many intent on destroying the Jewish race altogether, even ridding the state of Israel allowing Israelis and Palestinians to live side by side would be a disaster. The biggest worry for me is that tensions here arise following the increased immigration levels from Middle Eastern countries which already appears to be raising its head in our major cities.

Whitesince63 wrote:You just can’t resist bringing Brexit into everything can you Sluffy, even the bloody Gaza conflict and leaving the EU being a disaster is only your view along with the other Remainiacs who will do anything to find excuses to downplay it. I’m not going to even try to deny that the opportunities from leaving haven’t been advanced, it’s bloody criminal what our politicians have done so far and we know very well that the EU will do everything they can to complicate and frustrate matters. Anyway, this is a thread about what’s happening in Gaza so can we at least stick to that? 

Christ you are bonkers mate READ AGAIN WHAT I WROTE...

Sluffy wrote:It should be those who live there that decide how they choose to be governed but that leads to all sorts of problems for the minorities who don't want to be governed that way.

There's plenty of current examples, the recent troubles in Nagomo-Karabakh, Kosovo/Serbia, Kashmir, Russia's invasion of Ukraine, China's intimidation of Taiwan and of course Israel and Palestine - in a funny sort of way you could even add Brexit to that list.

Sluffy wrote:Let's take Brexit as an example - the majority voted for it (including... well I'll let that one go for now!) but what a disaster it has been.  Look at what has happened in South Africa since the 'whites minority' lost power.  In Hong Kong the majority had and still wanted an independence from China, they got steamrollered.  I'm sure the majority in Afghanistan don't want the Taliban if there was free elections (50% of the voters must be women and they have no future other than to be bred and treated as the possessions of men).

Even YOU can't claim that Brexit has been a success...!!!

Whitesince63 wrote:I’m not going to even try to deny that the opportunities from leaving haven’t been advanced, it’s bloody criminal what our politicians have done so far and we know very well that the EU will do everything they can to complicate and frustrate matters.

I've simply used the Brexit example to simply show that even where the majority want it, it still leaves a chunk of people who don't and will fight against it - hence all the examples I gave!

I was demonstrating WHY the is no possible solution to Palestine - Israel because people on both sides will kill to get the other side out of 'their' country.

Christ it is even being reported now that even babies were deliberately killed by Hamas in their attack - how on Earth do you begin to expect those people to live in peace, side by side with their sworn enemy???

I wrote NOTHING about Brexit other than to give people an example of democracy in action that clearly as yet hasn't worked - the two nation, one country approach for Palestine - Israel simply hasn't worked either - that was my whole point of writing what  did!!!

You really need to get down off your high horse about Brexit and stop being so touchy over it, as you clearly are seeing THINGS THAT ARE NOT EVEN THERE -as in this case!!!


(PS I notice that Wanderlust has now opened up a NINE YEAR OLD thread on Gaza simply to avoid admitting he was wrong above on here - he does make me laugh!!!)

I find it incredible that Biden is supporting the blockade of Gaza.
OK the Israelis have blockaded Gaza for the last 17 years, controlling what goes in and out which has led to over a million people living on or below the breadline and the rest refugees entirely dependent on international aid for their survival - but now they are cutting off water, electricity, food and medicines which under international law is a war crime. How can the President sanction war crimes?

Seeing the Israeli Minister appear on television and calling the entire Palestinian nation - not Hamas - "human animals who will be treated accordingly" and not getting sanctioned for it is symptomatic of 50 odd years of dehumanising the very people whose lives they have cast into poverty and deprivation.

Do none of them realise it's a problem that we Brits and latterly the Americans caused in the first place?

Surely the have to target Hamas - not a people who are already victims?

wanderlust wrote:I find it incredible that Biden is supporting the blockade of Gaza.
OK the Israelis have blockaded Gaza for the last 17 years, controlling what goes in and out which has led to over a million people living on or below the breadline and the rest refugees entirely dependent on international aid for their survival - but now they are cutting off water, electricity, food and medicines which under international law is a war crime. How can the President sanction war crimes?

Seeing the Israeli Minister appear on television and calling the entire Palestinian nation - not Hamas - "human animals who will be treated accordingly" and not getting sanctioned for it is symptomatic of 50 odd years of dehumanising the very people whose lives they have cast into poverty and deprivation.

Do none of them realise it's a problem that we Brits and latterly the Americans caused in the first place?

Surely the have to target Hamas - not a people who are already victims?

Fake news apparently...

“We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly,” Gallant said.

While it appears that Gallant was specifically referring to Hamas fighters in that comment, the rest of the minister’s remarks called for further oppression of all people in Gaza by denying them basic human needs.

“We are imposing a complete siege on Gaza,” Gallant said. “There will be no electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything will be closed.”

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/israel-defence-minister-human-animals-gaza-palestine_uk_65245ebae4b0a32c15bfe6b6

According to several sources, Israel was warned of an impending attack by Egypt intelligence services 3 days in advance - but Israel chose to ignore it.