3 CBs

So Dougie has made a big deal about getting a lead and then defending it this week and for the third time since Knight was dropped, he was brought on to make a back 5. It seems to work.
This sitting back and soaking up pressure business makes me very nervous, but we can't really argue with the outcomes so far, especially as we now seem to be able to score on the break.

Seeing as some folk were suggesting we should go for a third when we had a one goal lead yesterday and Dougie went for 3 CBs instead of bringing on a more attacking player, what do you think of Dougie's approach/system when we're in that position? Is it boring? Sensible? Risky? Desperate? Megson? Something else?

wanderlust wrote:Seeing as some folk were suggesting we should go for a third when we had a one goal lead yesterday and Dougie went for 3 CBs instead of bringing on a more attacking player, what do you think of Dougie's approach/system when we're in that position? Is it boring? Sensible? Risky? Desperate? Megson? Something else?

To be fair to Knight he's played well when he's come on as a third centre half. I do think there are times when it's a good move, perhaps away from home defending a slender lead with 15 mins to go.

What I don't like is defending a lead at home against the likes of Yeovil, Ipswich and Millwall. Yes, it worked yesterday but we really should be pushing on if we have any ambitions above survival.

Baby steps. The team needs to change it's mentality and believe it can do what is required to get that 3 points we want, per game. Right now, we need to shore up the defense to protect a lead - eventually I think it won't be necessary as the players understand what is required of them. we've been improving but the equalizer we conceded yesterday shows that we are not quite there yet - hence the introduction of Knight.

Attack is the best form of defence without question. The more we sit back and allow teams to come onto us the more chance we have of losing. I can see a logic in it against good teams but come on surely not the ones we've faced recently? Three goals yesterday flattered us frankly, we could easily have drawn or even lost. 

I think in fairness the 3 centre back thing for us would suit perfectly with so many options there, as long as Ream is the front of the 3 with his ability to get forward. Unfortunately DF is stuck with his own system whether we have the players for it or not. So the negative attitude and 11 back at corners will unfortunately continue I'm afraid.

Whitesince63 wrote:Attack is the best form of defence without question. The more we sit back and allow teams to come onto us the more chance we have of losing. I can see a logic in it against good teams but come on surely not the ones we've faced recently? Three goals yesterday flattered us frankly, we could easily have drawn or even lost. 

I think in fairness the 3 centre back thing for us would suit perfectly with so many options there, as long as Ream is the front of the 3 with his ability to get forward. Unfortunately DF is stuck with his own system whether we have the players for it or not. So the negative attitude and 11 back at corners will unfortunately continue I'm afraid.

I don't agree here white; all out attack is fine IF you have two very fast centre backs to cut off the counter attack which we don't right now. Personally I think DF was right yesterday; we soaked Milwall up, let them tire themselves out when they really didn't ever look like getting a second goal then clobbered them with the third game killing goal once they'd run out of steam. 

That said I do agree with Nat in that the Ipswich game in particular showed just how badly that approach can go wrong. During that match we played rubbish all over the park, we looked very weak at the back all day and we should have thrown caution to the wind in that one because a one goal lead never looked to be enough. To be honest what really upset me about that 'display' (using the word charitably) was how we CONTINUED to sit back when we WEREN'T leading. I think maybe DF realised after that game that with our shaky back line a three CB strategy works PROVIDED we already have the lead.

It was squeaky bum time yesterday for the last 20 minutes LPP especially when Feeney came on so I don't accept we were comfortable. If they had scored then what do you think would have happened? Would we have reverted to attack to get another or defended even deeper to ensure we didn't lose. Remember Freedman had already changed the team to a defensive one. Either way we would have surrendered the initiative to Millwall. The 3rd goal wasn't the result of letting Millwall wear themselves out you're kidding yourself if you think that. It was good fortune nothing more. Look, I don't want to be hanging on every week against teams we should be stuffing but I'm afraid under Freedman that's all we can expect.

Whitesince63 wrote:It was squeaky bum time yesterday for the last 20 minutes LPP especially when Feeney came on so I don't accept we were comfortable. If they had scored then what do you think would have happened? Would we have reverted to attack to get another or defended even deeper to ensure we didn't lose. Remember Freedman had already changed the team to a defensive one. Either way we would have surrendered the initiative to Millwall. The 3rd goal wasn't the result of letting Millwall wear themselves out you're kidding yourself if you think that. It was good fortune nothing more. Look, I don't want to be hanging on every week against teams we should be stuffing but I'm afraid under Freedman that's all we can expect.

I do see your point white but I disagree about the squeaky bum bit. I really didn't think they looked like scoring unless we royally screwed up, always a possibility for us I know BUT once Knight was on I really did think we looked quite comfortable. As to teams we SHOULD be stuffing, well, I think it's time we all accepted that the championship is a very different league to the prem. I was looking at the table last night and the team in sixth are ten points clear of the drop zone. I mean seriously, this whole league is so close and tight that any team from seventh to seventeenth can shoot right up the table with three or four wins while a team currently in the play off spots could have one bad month and find themselves in the bottom half. 

We are in the championship because we deserve to be based on results. I would dearly love to say we're a premiership quality team but we're not and to say we should be stuffing everyone in the division is arrogant at best and deluded at worst. Millwall set out to stifle us yesterday and then they ran at us but we held them off and in the end the scoreline was an accurate reflection of the match IMO. Dougie might indeed be too negative in the long run but for now I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt because we haven't lost in seven matches, we have thirteen points from a possible twenty one and with two wins on the trot our tails will be up so perhaps we'll see our lads play with more freedom and a bit of swagger after the break. That first home win may well turn out to be a far more pivotal moment than even the optimists among us hope it is.

luckyPeterpiper wrote:I do see your point white but I disagree about the squeaky bum bit. I really didn't think they looked like scoring unless we royally screwed up, always a possibility for us I know BUT once Knight was on I really did think we looked quite comfortable. As to teams we SHOULD be stuffing, well, I think it's time we all accepted that the championship is a very different league to the prem. I was looking at the table last night and the team in sixth are ten points clear of the drop zone. I mean seriously, this whole league is so close and tight that any team from seventh to seventeenth can shoot right up the table with three or four wins while a team currently in the play off spots could have one bad month and find themselves in the bottom half. 

We are in the championship because we deserve to be based on results. I would dearly love to say we're a premiership quality team but we're not and to say we should be stuffing everyone in the division is arrogant at best and deluded at worst. Millwall set out to stifle us yesterday and then they ran at us but we held them off and in the end the scoreline was an accurate reflection of the match IMO. Dougie might indeed be too negative in the long run but for now I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt because we haven't lost in seven matches, we have thirteen points from a possible twenty one and with two wins on the trot our tails will be up so perhaps we'll see our lads play with more freedom and a bit of swagger after the break. That first home win may well turn out to be a far more pivotal moment than even the optimists among us hope it is.

 

I think it's naive to put all of our good results just down to good fortune. Dougie's got a system to counter attack and absorb pressure, we've improved defensively and offensively so it's getting results now. Whether or not it's pleasing to everyone is a different matter.

Even when Millwall scored an equaliser, I wasn't too anxious, as I thought we could get a win against them. I didn't have a problem either, when Dougie introduced Knight towards the end, I even said to my mate, I think Dougie will bring Knight on, it worked, so you have to give credit to Dougie yesterday.

bwfc1874 wrote:

luckyPeterpiper wrote:I do see your point white but I disagree about the squeaky bum bit. I really didn't think they looked like scoring unless we royally screwed up, always a possibility for us I know BUT once Knight was on I really did think we looked quite comfortable. As to teams we SHOULD be stuffing, well, I think it's time we all accepted that the championship is a very different league to the prem. I was looking at the table last night and the team in sixth are ten points clear of the drop zone. I mean seriously, this whole league is so close and tight that any team from seventh to seventeenth can shoot right up the table with three or four wins while a team currently in the play off spots could have one bad month and find themselves in the bottom half. 

We are in the championship because we deserve to be based on results. I would dearly love to say we're a premiership quality team but we're not and to say we should be stuffing everyone in the division is arrogant at best and deluded at worst. Millwall set out to stifle us yesterday and then they ran at us but we held them off and in the end the scoreline was an accurate reflection of the match IMO. Dougie might indeed be too negative in the long run but for now I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt because we haven't lost in seven matches, we have thirteen points from a possible twenty one and with two wins on the trot our tails will be up so perhaps we'll see our lads play with more freedom and a bit of swagger after the break. That first home win may well turn out to be a far more pivotal moment than even the optimists among us hope it is.

 

I think it's naive to put all of our good results just down to good fortune. Dougie's got a system to counter attack and absorb pressure, we've improved defensively and offensively so it's getting results now. Whether or not it's pleasing to everyone is a different matter.

Maybe it is a pivotal moment and maybe things will turn for the better but ihaven't seen anything yet that convinces me it is. I do not like Freedman's style of play and don't think it will get us the results we need long term. I agree about the standard in this division and that's exactly why I think we should be doing better. There just aren't many good teams in here. Every week there are teams winning by big margins then losing the next week. If we were half way decent we'd be near the top and with the players we have I maintain we should be. I'm not unaware we aren't PL standard, a long way off but we are surely better than Freedman is making us look. I'm sick of his negativity and just because it gets a few draws against the weaker teams in this league, especially at home, I don't consider it reason to think anything really has changed.

Whitesince63 wrote:

bwfc1874 wrote:

luckyPeterpiper wrote:I do see your point white but I disagree about the squeaky bum bit. I really didn't think they looked like scoring unless we royally screwed up, always a possibility for us I know BUT once Knight was on I really did think we looked quite comfortable. As to teams we SHOULD be stuffing, well, I think it's time we all accepted that the championship is a very different league to the prem. I was looking at the table last night and the team in sixth are ten points clear of the drop zone. I mean seriously, this whole league is so close and tight that any team from seventh to seventeenth can shoot right up the table with three or four wins while a team currently in the play off spots could have one bad month and find themselves in the bottom half. 

We are in the championship because we deserve to be based on results. I would dearly love to say we're a premiership quality team but we're not and to say we should be stuffing everyone in the division is arrogant at best and deluded at worst. Millwall set out to stifle us yesterday and then they ran at us but we held them off and in the end the scoreline was an accurate reflection of the match IMO. Dougie might indeed be too negative in the long run but for now I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt because we haven't lost in seven matches, we have thirteen points from a possible twenty one and with two wins on the trot our tails will be up so perhaps we'll see our lads play with more freedom and a bit of swagger after the break. That first home win may well turn out to be a far more pivotal moment than even the optimists among us hope it is.

 

I think it's naive to put all of our good results just down to good fortune. Dougie's got a system to counter attack and absorb pressure, we've improved defensively and offensively so it's getting results now. Whether or not it's pleasing to everyone is a different matter.

Maybe it is a pivotal moment and maybe things will turn for the better but ihaven't seen anything yet that convinces me it is. I do not like Freedman's style of play and don't think it will get us the results we need long term. I agree about the standard in this division and that's exactly why I think we should be doing better. There just aren't many good teams in here. Every week there are teams winning by big margins then losing the next week. If we were half way decent we'd be near the top and with the players we have I maintain we should be. I'm not unaware we aren't PL standard, a long way off but we are surely better than Freedman is making us look. I'm sick of his negativity and just because it gets a few draws against the weaker teams in this league, especially at home, I don't consider it reason to think anything really has changed.

Fair enough mate; I guess only time will tell. Like I said I'm not convinced by Dougie or his tactics myself as yet but nor will I write him off out of hand. I don't know if we'll charge up the table now or if this current run will prove to be a false dawn but I won't attempt to predict what might happen because this whole division is bonkers, a point proven last season when we came within one goal of a play off spot. For now I give DF the benefit of the doubt, he gets the credit when we win because he gets the blame when we don't and for my money you can't say one without the other.

What makes the world go round?  It takes all types.  Even when we are on a run like this, people are complaining. I just hope this continues and that the January window proves fruitful (in and out).  Then we may just get Davies and Holden back.  If we keep this up, and I can only hope so, then there will still be bitching and moaning to deal with.  Let's just keep positive and turn a deaf ear to those who complain when we are doing well.

Let's look at Dougies recent acquisitions:

Danns:  

Moritz:  

Hall:  

McNaughton:  

Says it all for me. Give the manager and the team time to gel and get things right.

  

Beckford  

Plus I've been impressed with the way he's got Ream and Mills playing, almost like 2 new signings. He's getting the best out of a lot of players at the moment and it's paying off.

I definitely think there's areas he can improve, his caution is one. But he's still young and learning the trade, hopefully he'll improve over time but I'd say he's a good long term manager for us at this point.

Ream has been fantastic since getting back into the team, but as for playing 3 centre backs, it worked yesterday but sitting back and inviting pressure against better teams than Millwall is asking for trouble.

bwfc1874 wrote:Beckford  

Plus I've been impressed with the way he's got Ream and Mills playing, almost like 2 new signings. He's getting the best out of a lot of players at the moment and it's paying off.

I definitely think there's areas he can improve, his caution is one. But he's still young and learning the trade, hopefully he'll improve over time but I'd say he's a good long term manager for us at this point.

Yes, I agree. I missed Beckford and I meant to include him. I always felt that once he scored his first goal for us then more would follow. He was trying too hard earlier on and shooting too quickly but now he seems to have calmed down and I can see him easily reaching double figures this campaign.

Norpig wrote:Ream has been fantastic since getting back into the team, but as for playing 3 centre backs, it worked yesterday but sitting back and inviting pressure against better teams than Millwall is asking for trouble.

I'd say you're right on that norpig but as long as we ARE winning I don't really worry too much about systems and styles. I'd like entertaining fast passing attacking football day in day out but Owen Coyle tried that and it didn't work very well did it? It may sound a bit weird but what we could do with in the long term is almost an amalgam of Megson and Coyle. In simple terms we need a manager who can get the best out of what we have and adapt our tactics and style to best nullify the opposition's strengths while playing to our own. We got lucky in having not one but TWO really good men for that in Bruce Rioch and Sam Allardyce. Colin Todd was actually pretty good at it too just not quite on their level. 

I know it's probably wishful thinking but such a manager would be this club's best chance of staying in the prem without spending every season desperately scrabbling for survival if and when we got back up there. Is Dougie that man? I don't know; in truth I doubt it but I'll keep an open mind on him until the end of this his first full season in charge. I know many of us don't rate him, some feel he should be gone already after the start we had and I can see their point even though I disagree. To my mind changing manager every season doesn't work in the long term. Take a good look at who won what in England over the last twenty years and two names top that list by miles. Ferguson won nothing, bupkiss, nada for three and a half years despite having the 'biggest' club in the country. Wenger hasn't won a cup, not even the league cup for nearly eight years but there's no sign of the Arsenal board kicking him out any time soon and this season looks very much like it might finally be his year despite losing yesterday. It seems to me that clubs with stable management and backroom staff do better in the long run than the likes of Chelsea and Man City who chop and change their manager every few months.

luckyPeterpiper wrote: 

I know it's probably wishful thinking but such a manager would be this club's best chance of staying in the prem without spending every season desperately scrabbling for survival if and when we got back up there. Is Dougie that man? I don't know; in truth I doubt it but I'll keep an open mind on him until the end of this his first full season in charge. I know many of us don't rate him, some feel he should be gone already after the start we had and I can see their point even though I disagree. To my mind changing manager every season doesn't work in the long term. Take a good look at who won what in England over the last twenty years and two names top that list by miles. Ferguson won nothing, bupkiss, nada for three and a half years despite having the 'biggest' club in the country. Wenger hasn't won a cup, not even the league cup for nearly eight years but there's no sign of the Arsenal board kicking him out any time soon and this season looks very much like it might finally be his year despite losing yesterday. It seems to me that clubs with stable management and backroom staff do better in the long run than the likes of Chelsea and Man City who chop and change their manager every few months.

In a nutshell. Too many clubs get rid of managers far too quickly. It's a recipe for disaster. A lot of these new football club owners demand instant success but in reality it just isn't going to happen. If football management was that simple then we would all be doing it.

Feeny (thumb icon thingy)

I don't think anyone would disagree that stability is preferable and a manager must be given time to build, but you've taken two very special cases in Fergie and Wenger. Obviously the club could see the progress being made in both those cases. We've had Megson and Coyle who were both given time yet all of us could see it wasn't working and they should have gone earlier. I feel the same with Freedman, he's been here long enough now for us to see what he's about and what it's telling me is that he isn't a long term bet for us. Negative football is his mantra and I don't want it. 

As far as getting it right with Mills and Ream, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this the same Dougie who tried to get them both out the club and even had them training with the kids in preference for Useless Knight and unfit Wheater until he was forced to play them? Credit where it's due but it wasn't due here and that in a nutshell is Freedman for me and I have zero faith in him.