OFFICIAL - Alan Hutton Loan Complete

So how's it going to work?

Will he be cover and sat on the bench?

Will Knight replace Mills and Hutton replace Baptiste?

Will Baptiste move across in place of Mills and Hutton fill in for Baptiste?

Will White ever get a game?

Copper Dragon wrote:So how's it going to work?

Will he be cover and sat on the bench?

Will Knight replace Mills and Hutton replace Baptiste?

Will Baptiste move across in place of Mills and Hutton fill in for Baptiste?

Will White ever get a game?

Fuck knows, CD, all I know at the moment.

Pratley wont be playing.

Hutton straight into right back, ream stays at left back and baptiste moves alongside wheater

I'd be worried about Ream playing Centre Back.

If he's still wearing his Mask.

He is a player with a point to prove, good signing (if he plays him?)

Scottish International with tons of experience..... we should give him chance to come up to speed....a couple of games at least. Although we only have him for a month so may be hard to tell if he is any good.  Certainly worth a shot. Chances are he will be with us for the rest of the season. Also Holden plays for the U21's this week.....options are looking up all of a sudden.

luckyPeterpiper wrote:

bwfc1874 wrote:Would I take the Juke, Mason and Hutton over N'gog and Craig Davies? Without a doubt. He's taken a calculated risk and it looks to me as though it's paid off.

I think this is a problem and a big one at that mate. 

We keep failing to get the best out of our own players and farming them out to bring in short term replacements for the same position. I won't argue against Juke's performances, hes actually surprised me by how well he's played up until now but you can't make long term plans for a football club by borrowing players from elsewhere all the time. I personally rate Hutton, I think he could be just what we need to solidify the back line in the absence of Mills but he's another loan, no matter how well he does he isn't our player and even if he stays till the end of the season we're back to square one in the summer. 

Danns, Mason, Juke, Hutton, four players who could be seen as integral to our hopes will all be gone next August. 

I don't see how Dougie can possibly put a solid system in place when he doesn't even know who his players will be.

With several of our own out of contract as well we could wind up being even more wafer thin than we already are.

You're assuming that they will go back to their home clubs.
The reason they're on loan is that they can't break into and remain in the first team squad- hence they're loaned out.
I can see Dougie making bids for these players  so they're with us permanently.
Players that we borrow seem to like playing for us - so I wouldn't be too despondent- I think we'll see some of these players here on a permanent basis. In the past we've borrowed younger players (like Wilshire and Sturridge) with no real hope of keeping them as they're being developed- in the same way that we are trying to develop Odelusi,Bolger,Eaves.- but others like Spearing come along and stay.
Other clubs (like the Villa) are trying to cut their wage bill.
I can see some of these borrowed players( including Feeney) being permanent fixtures next season- when hopefully we'll see a serious bid for promotion take place. If Holden can come back( he's having a run out today) and  show some form, then I'm getting quite optimistic about next season. Our period in Hell might be over.

rammywhite wrote:You're assuming that they will go back to their home clubs.
The reason they're on loan is that they can't break into and remain in the first team squad- hence they're loaned out.
I can see Dougie making bids for these players  so they're with us permanently.
Players that we borrow seem to like playing for us - so I wouldn't be too despondent- I think we'll see some of these players here on a permanent basis. In the past we've borrowed younger players (like Wilshire and Sturridge) with no real hope of keeping them as they're being developed- in the same way that we are trying to develop Odelusi,Bolger,Eaves.- but others like Spearing come along and stay.
Other clubs (like the Villa) are trying to cut their wage bill.
I can see some of these borrowed players( including Feeney) being permanent fixtures next season- when hopefully we'll see a serious bid for promotion take place. If Holden can come back( he's having a run out today) and  show some form, then I'm getting quite optimistic about next season. Our period in Hell might be over.

rammy, while I understand your point I think you're overlooking one important detail. 

Money. The reason why Dougie is having to loan players is because we can't AFFORD to buy them. There's no way he's going to be able to bid anything realistic for Jutkiewicz OR hutton both of whom have quite long periods remaining on their current contracts (Juke 2017 hutton 2015).

I'd love to see Feeney come back to us when his deal is up in the summer but will we have the money to pay his wages? Will DF be given the resources to deal with the ongoing problem of no left back? 

In the past we borrowed players from the likes of Chelsea and Arsenal and no one expected us to buy those lads because we couldn't justify a 20 million quid for one player deal. However, with our financial situation being even worse than we feared we're now borrowing from Millwall and Boro and STILL don't sem to have the money to buy. Look at th Dyerstam situation, 320K, that was all we had to pay for a left back who's already played international football and the board baulked despite DF saying he wanted the lad. 

I fear that when the big money earners drop off our books DF or whoever else is managing the team STILL won't get anything to strengthen the squad because the board will use themoney saved to service our debts, especially as our "parachute" payments will be much smaller. 

I hope I'm wrong of course, I think we NEED to beef the squad up especially in defence but I fear we won't be able to.

luckyPeterpiper wrote:

bwfc1874 wrote:Would I take the Juke, Mason and Hutton over N'gog and Craig Davies? Without a doubt. He's taken a calculated risk and it looks to me as though it's paid off.

I think this is a problem and a big one at that mate. 

We keep failing to get the best out of our own players and farming them out to bring in short term replacements for the same position. I won't argue against Juke's performances, hes actually surprised me by how well he's played up until now but you can't make long term plans for a football club by borrowing players from elsewhere all the time. I personally rate Hutton, I think he could be just what we need to solidify the back line in the absence of Mills but he's another loan, no matter how well he does he isn't our player and even if he stays till the end of the season we're back to square one in the summer. 

Danns, Mason, Juke, Hutton, four players who could be seen as integral to our hopes will all be gone next August. 

I don't see how Dougie can possibly put a solid system in place when he doesn't even know who his players will be.

With several of our own out of contract as well we could wind up being even more wafer thin than we already are.

I agree with you that our reliance on loan players is worrying but we have little choice at this point considering FFP and our finances.

I don't think it's a case of failing to get the best out of our players, more we have too many players who aren't good enough and don't have the money to replace them permanently.

I'd hope that the funds for Juke could be put together, sounded like a lot of good play went through him today. Selling Craig Davies to Preston would help, as would getting Eagles, Mears etc off the wage bill.

Juke has been a revelation to me bwfc1874. I really did not expect much from him based on his stats and my Boro supporting mate's opinion. In fact my mate has already said he looks a completely different player since he came to us but he's got nearly three years left on his current deal and I'd be willing to bet that Boro will want a pretty hefty chunk for him if they're willing to sell at all. 

I agree we're deep in the mire financially but I don't believe losing some players off the books will help us because the board won't give all the "saved" money to the manager. Look at what happened with N'gog, DF was told to sell and promised some money from the transfer but when the deal was done the board said no he had to get rid of someone else as well. He loaned Cravies to PNE and then he had to bring in Juke because we suddenly had NO fit first team strikers. We still don't have a left back ready for the first team because we couldn't afford 320K, a piddling amount in today's market. 

I really am worried, I think come the summer we're going to find ourselves not just threadbare but wafer thin. On paper at the start of this season we had a really strong squad but DF used them wrongly imo, he failed to get the best out of players who should have been having a field day in this league and two really good wins can't paper over the chasm sized gaps in the difference between where we ARE and where we SHOULD be. Dougie is a bad manager in my opinion because he's too stubborn and continued with a system that clearly didn't work with the players he had for far too long. A good manager would have seen that one up front and a defensive mindset would never work, especially with how poorly our midfielders and defenders were playing. Eagles and Lee don't do track back, they should have been given the freedom to go for the wings and run at defences while Beckford and Cravies should have been partnered up front in the way Juke and Mason are now but DF either couldn't or wouldn't summon up the courage to go for that. 

With Moritz and Mavies in the middle of the park we could have kept some of the pressure off the back line as well but instead he insisted on playing counterpunch football which only works if you have the right sort of players to do it. He played the same dire "hoof it and hope" junk we saw under Megson and it cost us dearly. 

My fear is that next season we'll be right back to that and relying yet again on late loans to get us away from the drop zone, something that's risky at best and suicidal at worst if DF stays and the board don't give the manager some real money.

Not that it matters if you keep winning, but......

10 grand a week bench warmer?

Or just not match fit yet?

Would think not match fit.

But we had to have some sort of defensive cover, so not that much choise in the matter really - I guess.

I would think whoever we got in would probably cost in that region anyway?

Copper Dragon wrote:Not that it matters if you keep winning, but......

10 grand a week bench warmer?

Or just not match fit yet?

I think it's more a case of he signed too late to be included in today's starting line up Copper. Dougie clearly had a certain setup and plan in mind and probably spent the week practicing it in training. I have to be honest and say I was surprised Hutton didn't start and I groaned when Knight's name was on the team sheet but the fact is DF got it right today and everyone played well.

I suspect we will see Hutton next week, replacing Zat and partnering either Wheater or Ream in the centre of defence.

If Dougie hadn't signed some of our loan players this season, such as Danns, Juke, Mason & McNaughton, I really think we could go down this season and I think Dougie deserves some credit, for bringing these players in, even though his tactics were terrible a few games ago.

Culcheth_White wrote:If Dougie hadn't signed some of our loan players this season, such as Danns, Juke, Mason & McNaughton, I really think we could go down this season and I think Dougie deserves some credit, for bringing these players in, even though his tactics were terrible a few games ago.

I agree they've been good signings but the fact is DF has failed to get the best out of our own players and been tactically inept for far too long in my opinion. For that reason plus the ones I already stated elsewhere I don't think he's a good enough manager for us. I give him credit for the things he's done right but there haven't been anywhere near enough of them to justify leaving him in the job. At least that's how I feel about it.

Culcheth_White wrote:If Dougie hadn't signed some of our loan players this season, such as Danns, Juke, Mason & McNaughton, I really think we could go down this season and I think Dougie deserves some credit, for bringing these players in, even though his tactics were terrible a few games ago.

Add Dawson and Spearing as loan players who kept us up last season as well!  Really need a shake-out of the old and try and bring some bodies who want to play the game this summer... Juke, Mason, Danns, Feeney, etc.  They put our lads to shame.  We need not discuss poor tactics since we hope Dougie has learned from those wretched games.

luckyPeterpiper wrote:

Culcheth_White wrote:If Dougie hadn't signed some of our loan players this season, such as Danns, Juke, Mason & McNaughton, I really think we could go down this season and I think Dougie deserves some credit, for bringing these players in, even though his tactics were terrible a few games ago.

I agree they've been good signings but the fact is DF has failed to get the best out of our own players and been tactically inept for far too long in my opinion. For that reason plus the ones I already stated elsewhere I don't think he's a good enough manager for us. I give him credit for the things he's done right but there haven't been anywhere near enough of them to justify leaving him in the job. At least that's how I feel about it.

You can't have it both ways LPP.
When it was argued that we need to loan out or offload expensive players who weren't doing the business and that Dougie's long term plan was to reduce the bill and have money to spend in the summer, you complained that it's all well and good but what about this season?

When it finally looks like Dougie's cobbled together a solution to keep us up this season, you are now saying that's all well and good but what about when the loanees return in the summer?

Can't you just accept that Dougie is navigating his way through an incredibly difficult situation and is doing the best he can in these circumstances?

I have issues with Dougie, but I do think he'll keep us up and I do think that he'll spend any money that he gets in the summer wisely - and it wouldn't be his fault if the clubs that own the loanees price us out of the market. But if they do, he'll find others where required.

To me, his tactics are often wrong for the players he has, but I do think he's good in the transfer market considering the lack of budget and is taking a sensible approach to youth development - and is prepared to take tough and often unpopular decisions.

I respect your right to express your concerns - in fact it shows how much you care - but a bit of balance wouldn't go amiss.

Today we should be giving Dougie huge credit.

After all, there'll be plenty of whingeing next time we get stuffed.

lusty I give Dougie full credit for today, he got it spot on and the players clearly understood and bought into his tactics BUT you have to admit that he's failed to get the best out of them far too many times this season. 

My worry about our loan signings is a valid one, Dougie keeps borrowing players and while I agree they have done well he can't keep relying on a few late arrivals to keep getting us out of a jam then find himself back in the same circumstances a year later. Loaning players out to replace them with like for like players is silly in the long term.

Take Jutkiewicz, he's doing well and I would be the first to admit my surprise at just how good he looks BUT there is virtually no chance he'll be our player next season because he's under contract to Boro till 2017 and they'll want more than we seem to be able to pay to make his deal permanent. 

I realise the financial situation isn't DF's fault BUT a manager's job is to get the best out of what he has available and Dougie hasn't done that for the vast majority of this season. 

Once again we are reliant on loanees to get us away from the drop zone because he stubbornly stuck to tactics that didn't work using football that was dire, negative and frankly cowardly even though a blind man could see it was demoralising the players and failing to stop us from conceding for months. THAT is most definitely Dougie's fault and no amount of excuse making can change it. 

As to sending players out last summer I didn't post on here then so I don't know how you can conclude I said anything about it. In fact I posted on JA606 that I felt we needed to BUY where we could, particularly in defence because we are still too thin there for my comfort. 

I wouldn't have argued if we sold a few players from the prem wages guys and used some of the money to bring in cheaper hard working alternatives because I fully understood and still do that we have to work to FFP rules as well as balance the books if we plan to survive as a football club let alone in this division. 

My issue with Dougie is all about his ON field results and performances, the OFF field stuff I lay at Phil Gartside's door. For my money both men need to go. It's not having it both ways lusty, I simply feel that we are going the wrong way about stabilising the club let alone moving it forward. How can you have ANY sort of long term plan when you don't know who your players are going to be? I don't like the way we depend on borrowing players, sooner or later we'll run out of luck and time.

luckyPeterpiper wrote:I really am worried, I think come the summer we're going to find ourselves not just threadbare but wafer thin. On paper at the start of this season we had a really strong squad but DF used them wrongly imo, he failed to get the best out of players who should have been having a field day in this league and two really good wins can't paper over the chasm sized gaps in the difference between where we ARE and where we SHOULD be. Dougie is a bad manager in my opinion because he's too stubborn and continued with a system that clearly didn't work with the players he had for far too long. A good manager would have seen that one up front and a defensive mindset would never work, especially with how poorly our midfielders and defenders were playing. Eagles and Lee don't do track back, they should have been given the freedom to go for the wings and run at defences while Beckford and Cravies should have been partnered up front in the way Juke and Mason are now but DF either couldn't or wouldn't summon up the courage to go for that. 

With Moritz and Mavies in the middle of the park we could have kept some of the pressure off the back line as well but instead he insisted on playing counterpunch football which only works if you have the right sort of players to do it. He played the same dire "hoof it and hope" junk we saw under Megson and it cost us dearly. 

Who would you say hasn't been used correctly LPP?

Clearly Dougie didn't fancy Beckford and Davies, partly because both have been in and out with injury, I don't think it's anything to do with courage if I'm honest. I don't know if they'd have worked together on a consistent basis there's no evidence to support either argument as we've never really seen it. But he should have given the midfield diamond and 2 up front a chance before now.

Moritz and Mavies in midfield would be a disaster you need a defensive player like Spearing/Medo in there to do the dirty work, or at least a Danns/Pratley type to close the opposition down. The idea that it would take pressure off the back line is far too simplistic mate.

Lee and Eagles were both used wrongly imo, neither man has ever been a defensive type of player, they're out and out wingers. I agree that 4-5-1 COULD have worked if he'd played someone like Spearing in the middle as a play breaker/ ball winner with Moritz and Mavies alongside to feed the ball to the wings or take it up themselves. However Dougie played them in a way that stifled lee in particular and we played way too deep for a lone striker to work. 

All too often we were bypassing the midfield altogether with "hoof it and hope" football that only gave the ball to the opposition because the front man was too far away from the midfielders and had no one in support even if he got on the end of it. Dougie set us up much the same way Megson did, playing not to concede rather than playing to out score the opposition. 

I know Coyle went too far the other way, he played all out attack and that got us bitten on the backside more than a few times. What we need, what any team needs is a manager who adapts his approach to the players he has and to the opposition they face. We haven't had a manager capable of that since Big Sam and they are thin on the ground BUT even average managers should be able to see when a system isn't working and change it to make the most of their own team's strengths. Dougie wouldn't or couldn't see the need to do that for far too long. 

I take nothing away from the last two games, they've been terrific performances and we've fully deserved both wins and clean sheets BUT in my humble opinion Dougie has failed to get the best out of our own players for too long and yet again we are reliant on loanees to get us out of a jam we should never have been in. 

As to Cravies and Beckford I agree we don't know how they'd perform together but that's because DF didn't give them the chance when they were both fit. Now we still won't know this season because of course Cravies is in Preston and Jermaine seems to be more seriously injured than we were initially told. 

I don't solely blame Dougie for the mess we are in by any means. I already said I believe the first responsibility lies at Phil Gartside's feet and he should be the first to go BUT in my opinion Dougie is the wrong man to stabilise or take the club forward in the long term based on his on field results and stubborn refusal to change even when his "system" was failing so badly Ray Charles would have been able to see it.