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Wanderers in £2.5m funding hole but "players will be paid" insists co-owner Ken Anderson

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Bwfc1958
scottjames30
Fabians Right Peg
blasterbolton
JAH
terenceanne
wanderlust
boltonbonce
whatsgoingon
luckyPeterpiper
Natasha Whittam
Sluffy
MartinBWFC
Norpig
Hipster_Nebula
King Bill
Boggersbelief
21 posters

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luckyPeterpiper

luckyPeterpiper
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo

bwfc1874 wrote:A bit like Sluffy, you could be right. But you're basing that entire theory and chain of events on one small bit of information. You both seem to fill in some pretty large blanks and decide that's the most likely scenario. The ST would have had next to no coverage from these two stories had it not been for Sluffy and yours theory, ironically you've both created more attention for the ST than Iles throw away line ever would have.
Perhaps so my friend and in all truth I sincerely hope I'm being paranoid and seeing things that don't exist. However from where I sit and with the information I have it looks more and more like the "ST" has its own agenda and the good of BWFC is peripheral to it.

As I said earlier this all started yesterday morning with an article on LoV that was almost immediately quoted on JA606 where I saw it. I thought quite hard before posting it here, in fact I PM'd both sluffy and karly to get their opinions on whether or not to give it that exposure. Both of them felt it was pertinent, may contain some truth and should be made available to Nuts readers to judge for themselves.

I posted the article with the proviso that I felt there may be some truth to it, that I actually felt there was although the source may make others suspect it. However, when no correlation came from either Sky Sports News or the BBC (not even Beeb North West) I began to have some doubts.

As late as three o'clock yesterday afternoon I still felt there might be something to this, that Manning wouldn't post such a potentially damaging if not libellous story unless he believed it to be true. I felt he may have been misled by a club source, perhaps a disgruntled soon to be former employee. But then, shortly after 3.30 in came Mr Iles and the BN quoting "unnamed sources" and adding "The Supporters Trust has written an official letter etc." That clinched it for me. The sole purpose of the initial LoV post was to get the BN, Iles in particular talking about a lack of funds and a rift between him and Anderson while making the "ST" look thoughtful and important.

I believe (and would like to be wrong) that Manning and his friends on the Steering Group are operating on the assumption that they can drive Anderson in particular out, that they would then be in a position to buy the club for a small sum (particularly if we go into admin) and thus gain the prestige they seek and have done all along. Don't forget this is a group of people who wanted "preferred bidder" status when they didn't even have a bank account. They also and consistently lied about who they were (remember the brilliant photo screw up?) and what their connections to Phil and Eddie were. They finally admitted they'd been asked to seek preferred bidder status by Trevor Birch, presumably (in their own words) at the behest of Eddie Davies. Since then their track record has shown them in my opinion to be amateurish attention seekers with no real grasp of what running a multi million pound company like a football club actually entails.

I am all for a Supporter's Trust, an independent body that has the fan's interests and the club's at heart and is a voice for the fans. Sadly I think the current steering group does none of that and if they become (as I expect) the elected committee they'll do even less. People say with some justification that I bang on about things but these guys are a genuine threat to Bolton Wanderers in my opinion and every single thing they do should be scrutinised and questioned as closely as humanly possible.

I really, really hope I'm miles off base here but right now I think I'm right based on the information I have and the things I'm seeing.

whatsgoingon

whatsgoingon
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington

An independent supporters trust is a great idea and should be a bridge between the supporters and the club, at the moment our supporters trust appears to be hellbent on blowing that bridge up.
The impression they are giving at the moment is that they are power hungry, self serving and any benefits the club gets out of them will be a by product rather than the main aim.

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

bwfc1874 wrote:So you don't think there's any chance at all Ken would blag in this situation to keep the heat off him? Not saying he is, but it's clearly not the totally unbelievable chain of events you're trying to make it out to be.

You do the same thing everytime anybody dares question you, false incredulity and claim they're being deliberately argumentative. You should recognise that you're in the minority with your views on the ST and other opinions are valid.

bwfc1874 wrote:A bit like Sluffy, you could be right. But you're basing that entire theory and chain of events on one small bit of information. You both seem to fill in some pretty large blanks and decide that's the most likely scenario. The ST would have had next to no coverage from these two stories had it not been for Sluffy and yours theory, ironically you've both created more attention for the ST than Iles throw away line ever would have.

Sorry I've not had chance to reply until now.

For what it is worth I've been involved in public accountability in one way or another for many years.

I know many people don't have much time for the multitude of rules and regulations the public sector has and the bureaucracy and long winded process it goes through but it does result in the main to produce honest, open and accountable governance.

Major corruption in our many public services is all but unheard of - unlike many other country's throughout the world.  We can be rightly proud of this.

If I am obsessive about something as a few on here seem to think I am, then it is about being open and honest in the public arena.

Of course a little Supporters Trust is a very minor public institution on the scale of things but it is still a public body in the sense that it is funded by  the general public through its membership, its reason for being is to give those fans a public voice and it does that by representing its membership through annual elections which give those elected a mandate to govern for that period.

If the Steering Group members had simply stuck to their appointed task of setting up the ST's inaugural AGM elections and not concerned itself with the power plays of others around it, I doubt you would have heard too much of a voice of dissent from me.

But it didn't.

It is a matter of record that the Steering Group (comprised of unelected people) has actively engaged in seeking to take ownership of the club on the instruction of the then club owner - directly against another party seeking to buy the club.

They 'may' have acted on what they believed to be the best interests of the club but as the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions too.

It is clear to me that the reason for being of the Steering Group was not to get involved with such issues at that stage in their embryonic development - nor even now raising in issues about the current owners with the Football League as they are currently doing, but to deliver the inaugural AGM at its earliest opportunity.

As for trying to obtain control of the club, it is abundantly clear that whoever owns the club at the present and immediate foreseeable future needs to invest many million in just keeping the club afloat until the massive expenditure on contracted player wages can be taken off the books.

Clearly the ST can not do that at this stage.

Yes they did claim they could raise something like £8 million but even if they could deliver on that it still probably would be insufficient to see the club through to June 2017 financially.

Would these pledges of £8 million come without any strings attached - who knows - the ST has kept us completely in the dark about where this money would come from and on what terms it would be given - hardly open and transparent with their own membership let alone the general BWFC fan base.

On whose right have these 'unelected' Steering Group members the authority to possibly bind the future of the yet to be elected ST committee for the next decade or so?

Why should the newly democratically elected committee following the AGM be given a fait accompli of the future of the club / ST whether they like it or not?

If the club falls into Administration the FL rules state that the Administrator is required to negotiate with the ST, so why the Steering Groups 'haste' to get involved before Administration comes about?  For all we know the club may never get to that point anyway - and if it did so what, the Administrator is required to talk to them.

Maybe I am too cautious in my way of thinking but it appears that not only am I not alone in thinking the unelected Steering Group is acting beyond its specified brief for being but the vast majority of others for whatever their reasons may be have, have taken against the ST too because of the Steering Group members actions.

What evidence do I have to say this - well simply look at the figures.  

Their membership is what, say 3,000 - if everyone of them were Season Ticket holders, they would be in the minority of ST holders which I am led to believe is around the 8,000 mark or so.

If they all turned up to the home games they would be in the minority as our average gate last season were what around 14,000ish.

They are not even in the majority of those who made an initial pledge to join the ST - 6,800 was claimed at one time - so they are not even over 50% of those who took up the torch for the ST in the first place!

It seems to me the uncalled for actions and machinations of the unelected Steering Group has resulted in them doing more harm to the ST than good.

A bit of an own goal I would say.


As for the Manning article, he does seem to have some knowledge of what is happening behind the scenes but why is this?  

Maybe he has a good rapport with someone or other behind the scenes at the club or he is being used by others to 'leak' whatever is the story they want to get into the BWFC fan public domain at the time.

Whatever it is, it is certainly good for his 'click' base site - the standard of advertisements have certainly shot up on there recently - and no doubt the remuneration for hosting them has done too!

Good for him but I do have my reservations of 'rumours' coming out of any social media site that depend on creating 'interest' to attract people to 'click' on their sites.


You can spin all that anyway you want mate as at the end of the day whatever happens to the ST has nothing to do with me nor it seems the current 71% of those who have replied to Iles Bolton News questionnaire who haven't bothered to join it yet!

JAH

JAH
Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly

I stopped reading half your post Sluffy as I got bored with it! So if you have covered my next point in the later stages of your essay above I apologise for not making it through.

Don't you think it's ironic that you kick off to such an extent about elections here and self serving people there in the ST and what puzzles so many of us right thinking folk is that you don't kick off like this about our current owners. That's why people see it as a strange vendetta.

We are owned by a couple of crooks who haven't shown you where their cash is or has come from etc either and are much more self serving but you write essay pieces on the ST and not DH and KA. Many of us think this is the most astonishing thing about your output.

Would it have been different if they had agreed to let you on to the steering group and not ignore you like they viewed you as being insignificant?

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

JAH wrote:I stopped reading half your post Sluffy as I got bored with it! So if you have covered my next point in the later stages of your essay above I apologise for not making it through.

Don't you think it's ironic that you kick off to such an extent about elections here and self serving people there in the ST and what puzzles so many of us right thinking folk is that you don't kick off like this about our current owners. That's why people see it as a strange vendetta.

We are owned by a couple of crooks who haven't shown you where their cash is or has come from etc either and are much more self serving but you write essay pieces on the ST and not DH and KA. Many of us think this is the most astonishing thing about your output.

Would it have been different if they had agreed to let you on to the steering group and not ignore you like they viewed you as being insignificant?

Well I hope you have proof to back up your accusations that Holdsworth and Anderson are crooks as it is certainly not unheard of these days for forum posters to be sued for libel -

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

At the end of the day the difference between the current owners (and Davies before them) and the ST wanting to buy the club is who takes the risk with their money.

In the case of the former it is they that invest their funds and reap the profits or take the loss, with the ST it is not 'their' money, it is the members who have bought a share in it and have an equal voice in how it is spent.

Until the ST hold their AGM the members 'will' has not been heard.

Quite frankly it is ridiculous that an unelected Steering Group is even able to potentially commit a yet unconstituted body to buy the club and enter into various financial multimillion pound commitments probably spread over numerous years and present it as a fait accompli to the yet to be democratically member elected ST to live with - like it or not - for the foreseeable future of its existence!

If those on the Steering Group want to buy the club with their own money, then good luck to them.  If the ST is given a mandate to purchase the club resulting from its democratic elections, then fair enough.  But to commit to something costing potentially millions without those who have a right to a say in the matter, by a bunch of unelected random people and their mates simply so they can live out their fantasy is completely wrong and why I feel there is such a large scale negative reaction (as measured in poor membership take up) to their actions of those on the Steering Group.

I'm sure they would have benefitted the ST more if they had stayed out of the politics surrounding the club ownership and kept to delivering the inaugural elections so that the ST could speak on these matters with a mandate from their membership.

Does that answer your query or have I wasted my time explaining myself to someone who doesn't even give me the basic curtesy of even bothering themselves to read much of what I say on the subject before asking questions of me?

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

The ST can't win at the moment, if they make a comment then they are castigated for still being a steering group with no authority and if they say nothing and toe the line then they will be accused of being a puppet for the club

The whole point of the ST is that they are meant to be a pressure group and ask questions of the owners and the club and if they weren't doing that i would want to know why.

I don't really want them to own the club unless they have some serious money to throw at it but i also don't want them turning into another BWSA and having no real input

luckyPeterpiper

luckyPeterpiper
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo

You're wrong norpig. In fact,


Saying nothing is precisely what the Steering Group should be doing.

Their only remit and mandate is to arrange elections for the Supporter's Trust and that is all, that's it, their responsibility and authority end right there.

Unfortunately the Steering Group has already veered so far off that simple track and task that they have already managed to alienate both the owners of the club. Not only that but seventy percent of the fans who agreed to join them have not done so and every single day we see another self serving ego massaging exercise from them. I won't go through the whole preferred bidder and bank account fiasco's again, they've been done to death but I'll ask what I feel is a pertinent question based on what's going on right now.

How can a body with no legal existence and no properly appointed officers send an official letter to anybody norpig?

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

maybe they don't have the legal right but these sorts of questions need answering, as i said before they need to be a pressure group, i don't really care if they are still a steering group or not i want someone to question what is happening with my club.

How do you know they have alienated the owners, do you know them personally Pete? You know as much as me or anyone who reads on here or in the paper.

I know the ST have made mistakes but i can't believe all the accusations thrown at the ST from people on here, to my mind they are fans of the club looking to set up a meaningful dialogue with the club and hopefully have some input in how the club goes forward from here.

I have already said i don't think they can run the club and maybe they did run before they can walk when they asked for preferential bidder status but i just don't see all the conspiracy theories i hear and read. 

Maybe i am being naive and people with more knowledge of public bodies and how they should be run can probably prove it but i just don't understand the animosity to the ST.

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Norpig wrote:maybe they don't have the legal right but these sorts of questions need answering, as i said before they need to be a pressure group, i don't really care if they are still a steering group or not i want someone to question what is happening with my club.

How do you know they have alienated the owners, do you know them personally Pete? You know as much as me or anyone who reads on here or in the paper.

I know the ST have made mistakes but i can't believe all the accusations thrown at the ST from people on here, to my mind they are fans of the club looking to set up a meaningful dialogue with the club and hopefully have some input in how the club goes forward from here.

I have already said i don't think they can run the club and maybe they did run before they can walk when they asked for preferential bidder status but i just don't see all the conspiracy theories i hear and read. 

Maybe i am being naive and people with more knowledge of public bodies and how they should be run can probably prove it but i just don't understand the animosity to the ST.
I think the point that they are trying to make is that until the ST get their fingers out and get elections organised, there is nobody in a position to ask the questions that need asking.
That's because until the ST elect a Board/committee their word isn't worth jack shit as they represent nobody.

I joined because I was promised that elections would be organised and we could freely choose the best people for the job in a fair process. I did not at any time agree to be represented by the administrators and other dogsbodys who are currently talking to the media and acting as if they speak for me.

It may be the case that those who were first in the door are acting pragmatically and in all innocence, but because they are flaunting the rules, anything they do will stink and will be always open to criticism.

So if you want progress, the stumbling block is the ST themselves unfortunately. They could easily resolve the problem by organising free elections, so the question remains....why don't they?

luckyPeterpiper

luckyPeterpiper
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo

wanderlust wrote:
Norpig wrote:maybe they don't have the legal right but these sorts of questions need answering, as i said before they need to be a pressure group, i don't really care if they are still a steering group or not i want someone to question what is happening with my club.

How do you know they have alienated the owners, do you know them personally Pete? You know as much as me or anyone who reads on here or in the paper.

I know the ST have made mistakes but i can't believe all the accusations thrown at the ST from people on here, to my mind they are fans of the club looking to set up a meaningful dialogue with the club and hopefully have some input in how the club goes forward from here.

I have already said i don't think they can run the club and maybe they did run before they can walk when they asked for preferential bidder status but i just don't see all the conspiracy theories i hear and read. 

Maybe i am being naive and people with more knowledge of public bodies and how they should be run can probably prove it but i just don't understand the animosity to the ST.
I think the point that they are trying to make is that until the ST get their fingers out and get elections organised, there is nobody in a position to ask the questions that need asking.
That's because until the ST elect a Board/committee their word isn't worth jack shit as they represent nobody.

I joined because I was promised that elections would be organised and we could freely choose the best people for the job in a fair process. I did not at any time agree to be represented by the administrators and other dogsbodys who are currently talking to the media and acting as if they speak for me.

It may be the case that those who were first in the door are acting pragmatically and in all innocence, but because they are flaunting the rules, anything they do will stink and will be always open to criticism.

So if you want progress, the stumbling block is the ST themselves unfortunately. They could easily resolve the problem by organising free elections, so the question remains....why don't they?
THANK YOU LUSTY!!!!!

In all seriousness this answer is what I have been fumbling for over the last couple of weeks. The problem is not with a Supporter's Trust per se, in fact I am a big fan of an independent ST acting as a voice for the fans. However the Steering Group have wildly overstepped their bounds almost from the moment of their inception and frankly have lost the trust of most of the people who would have supported them had they spent more time doing what they're legally meant to be doing and none massaging their own egos.

I want there to be a strong, independent voice for the fans that has their interests and the interests of BWFC at heart. Sadly Manning and his "friends" on the Steering Group are doing nothing to make that happen, if anything they're alienating both the people they claim to represent and those at the club who might have listened and worked with them had they gone about things the right way.

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

i see what both of you are saying to be honest and i want the same thing too, i still think they are all new to this so any overstepping wouldn't have been intentional and is all part of the learning curve.

You are both right about the elections, it needs to happen as soon as possible then we can all move on and they can start to do the job they are meant to.

blasterbolton


David Ngog
David Ngog


Like I've already said, I'm not a member of the steering group but I've done my research and it seems to me there are a couple of people on here who are just mischief makers, it obvious by your postings your not stupid or dyslexic, but just in case I've copied and pasted a few relevant pieces from the Supporters Trust model rule, which are posted on their website and are legally binding and recognised by the FSA in the setting up of a ST.

For the one or two of you who are struggling interpreting these rules, I've added a comment to try and simplify them

CONSTITUTION OF BOARD


56. The Society shall have a Board of Directors comprising not less than six and not more than twelve persons.

57.  The initial Directors (This means the 3 founder members) of the Society from registration until the first Annual General Meeting shall be appointed by the members on whose application the Society is registered. (This bit means until the first elections in July)


59. Members of the Board of Directors will normally serve for periods of two years, according to the Society’s Board Membership and Conduct Policy.

POWERS


5. The Society may achieve these objects in whole or in part through an interest or interests in companies or societies provided that the objects of the companies or societies are consistent with the Society’s objects. In particular, in pursuit of these objects
(but not otherwise) the Society may:

5.1  acquire an interest in or ownership of the Club; (Mount a bid for the club if they have sufficient funds)

5.2  secure democratic and accountable representation on the Club’s Board; (Enter into dialogue the the present owners)

5.3  take any other steps in relation to the Club which enable it to exercise the greatest
possible influence in the ownership, governance and management of the Club. (Write to the Football League )

6. In order to achieve its objects the Society may either itself or through a subsidiary company or society acting under its control:

6.1  buy, sell and lease property;

6.2  Borrow;

6.3  grant security over its property and assets;

6.4  establish promote and maintain for the purposes of the Society any lawful fund
raising scheme;

And if you are still in doubt, this guy will reply to every email you send him (I can personally vouch for that) Ian at bwfcst.co.uk

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

Is this the same Ian who was the director of Sappari Limited that was compulsory liquidated a few months back?

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

blasterbolton wrote:it obvious by your postings your not stupid or dyslexic

It's obvious you are.

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

Tweet from Iles an hour ago -

Had assurances from senior management at #bwfc that player salaries will go though as planned this month. Pay needed to be processed today.


Reply - & did they Marc?

Iles - seems that way, yes.


(This next post made me laugh)

Chris Manning - great news we've had enough of that messing about to last a lifetime

(The cheek of him after his LoV NON STORY! Very Happy - Well he does need the clicks to keep his advertisers happy).

Another person tweeting to Iles - Any indication of when the accounts will be published?

Iles - not yet, but heard a few horror stories which partially explain the delays.


Fabians Right Peg

Fabians Right Peg
Andy Walker
Andy Walker

As a supporter of the ST idea the sooner we get rid of this self serving bunch of fools in the steering group the better. They should be given some credit for progressing the idea, however it seems to be that this may have been more self serving than in the interests of the club.

The questioning of the club and raising issues I understand, however I do not see why the ST should be trying to dig up issues with the football league.

Anderson needs to be given time, to date we have not had sufficient reason to doubt him or Holdsworth, to have disagreements in partnerships is not unusual, hopefully they can find a way to work things out.

Administration would kill our season and put us under massive pressure.

Guest


Guest

Masterbater wrote:
Like I've already said, I'm not a member of the steering group but I've done my research and it seems to me there are a couple of people on here who are just mischief makers, it obvious by your postings your not stupid or dyslexic, but just in case I've copied and pasted a few relevant pieces from the Supporters Trust model rule, which are posted on their website and are legally binding and recognised by the FSA in the setting up of a ST.

For the one or two of you who are struggling interpreting these rules, I've added a comment to try and simplify them

CONSTITUTION OF BOARD


56. The Society shall have a Board of Directors comprising not less than six and not more than twelve persons.

57.  The initial Directors (This means the 3 founder members) of the Society from registration until the first Annual General Meeting shall be appointed by the members on whose application the Society is registered. (This bit means until the first elections in July)


59. Members of the Board of Directors will normally serve for periods of two years, according to the Society’s Board Membership and Conduct Policy.

POWERS


5. The Society may achieve these objects in whole or in part through an interest or interests in companies or societies provided that the objects of the companies or societies are consistent with the Society’s objects. In particular, in pursuit of these objects
(but not otherwise) the Society may:

5.1  acquire an interest in or ownership of the Club; (Mount a bid for the club if they have sufficient funds)

5.2  secure democratic and accountable representation on the Club’s Board; (Enter into dialogue the the present owners)

5.3  take any other steps in relation to the Club which enable it to exercise the greatest
possible influence in the ownership, governance and management of the Club. (Write to the Football League )

6. In order to achieve its objects the Society may either itself or through a subsidiary company or society acting under its control:

6.1  buy, sell and lease property;

6.2  Borrow;

6.3  grant security over its property and assets;

6.4  establish promote and maintain for the purposes of the Society any lawful fund
raising scheme;

And if you are still in doubt, this guy will reply to every email you send him (I can personally vouch for that) Ian at bwfcst.co.uk

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]




Come on, surely it wasnt just me thinking it

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

I've recently been keeping a bit of an eye on a small BWFC blog called Trotters blog.

I noticed today they have posted the following -

"A quick sequel to my piece on the Supporter’s Trust. As stated previously, I love the idea of a Trust but don’t like the running of ours thus far. I appreciate people are working day and night to make it work and I’m not stupid or rude enough to dismiss them off-cuff. With this latest saga, I very nearly signed up to the Trust, then they went and ran to the Football League to ask them to look at Anderson – something Dean Holdsworth has already informed Anderson he would be doing himself should funds not be paid.

It’s another massive decision made without the elected board we were promised. Again, I can totally see the rationale behind that call and why there was a decision to make, but people have very vocally disagreed with previous big calls made by the Trust – 2,200 members from 6,000 pledges remember – and this latest one pushed me back towards centre ground again.

Don’t get me wrong, if there’s real financial backing there then, hopefully, the Trust can be in a position to step in and help should they be needed. As for what I’ve seen on Twatter, someone mentioned that the Trust should ‘buy the club now’. Come on, 2,200 x £10 doesn’t cover Mark Davies for a week. Let’s get the elections sorted first. Crawl, Walk, Run. Do it properly and be the Trust we need, that might mean you’re not always the Trust members always like".


It is obviously only one persons opinion and no doubt others will disagree with it but I post it here simply to show that the view that I (and others off here) have about the actions of the Steering Group is far, far wider than simply here on Nuts - even if one or two are trying to portray it is simply as some sort of personal obsession of mine.

Full article here -

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

JAH

JAH
Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly

They don't have to portray anything Sluffy. You do a fabulous job all on your own.

Thanks for the article. It does sum up most people's views of the trust. However, another thing... Is it only me that knows the elections were set for July this year ages ago? People keep saying that the ST have been dragging their heels over elections, but we've not got to July yet, so how can they be? #justssaying

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

JAH wrote:They don't have to portray anything Sluffy. You do a fabulous job all on your own.

Thanks for the article. It does sum up most people's views of the trust. However, another thing...

So in your own words most people think the Steering Committee has constantly fucked up and is still continuing to do so.

Thanks for confirming what I've simply been saying all along.

Wink

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