A Genuine Question for Brexit Fans

gloswhite wrote:

okocha wrote:Editing out all the lies, exaggerations and scare-mongering on both sides, I still found it almost impossible to cast my vote with any degree of conviction. 

The conflicting advantages and disadvantages of being in the EU balanced each other out in my mind, so I am amazed at how so many people seemed to have had no such doubts and are acting with aggression towards any who "dare" to hold opposing views to their own. 

Surely, we can all see the complexity of the many pros and cons to be considered, and be sympathetic to the degree of difficulty involved in choosing. 

I am amazed that so many opted for democracy above the economy but I wouldn't criticise anyone for making this ethical choice, even if it makes practicalities difficult.
 I am dismayed by the way Remain are labelling their peers in the Leave camp as "thick"........because the counter-argument would be that you'd have to be equally "thick" not to see the host of reasons that someone might have for voting to leave.

This was not a referendum about the personalities involved (but if we were weighing up the respective merits of the leading characters on either side, I would have scored it a 0-0 draw. Decency, honesty  and civility took a resounding back-seat).

No, this should have been purely about the merits and demerits of the organisation, and which issues weighed more heavily in the mind of each voter. In the aftermath, respect for people's choices should be paramount.

The biggest irony was DC making such a song and dance about his view that we are not a nation of quitters......and then quitting the moment he had to admit that his misjudged gamble had failed.

The 350 million has been explained as the gross figure and the nett is 160 million. They made a mistake putting that figure on the bus, but I would ask the remainers : Did you really make your decision to remain, thinking that it would all go to the NHS ? If so, what about the wider argument, did you ignore it?
Anyone who is still going on about the bus is very naïve. Its done and gone.

Surely this is a question for the leavers? They're the ones who thought the £350 million would be going to the NHS. 

As for the bus, it clearly had an effect on the way people voted because the majority of people are pissed off that they admitted it was all bollocks immediately after the result was announced. They deliberately mislead the public to gain votes in their favour. Surely the naive ones are those who voted leave based on the fact they thought Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and co. were actually telling the truth.

Beat me to it there Breaders.

Of course the bus isn't irrelevant, it symbolises the financial promises made by Leave. 'Look at how much better off we'd be outside the EU' - £350 million a week was the claim and this is the exact kind of 'fact' that got the public onside. Simple and easily digestible, it's central to the result.

I don't think this is over yet in terms of us being guaranteed to come out, Glos is right there appears to be no contingency in place and there seems to be lots of moves in place to give us a possible get out clause.
Ironically the Scottish potential to veto it may give them a face saving option, but even if they did the negotiating position is massively weakened.
I believe we should still come out and rebuild ourselves, but the biggest worry here is no-one seems to have seen a leave vote coming including the leave campaigners it seems.

The Brexit camp repeatedly lied about the £350m when challenged during the campaign. Only after the votes were counted did they admit that it was a lie. And yes there are plenty of people who did believe that lie and voted Leave on the basis of that (and the other big lie about significantly reducing immigration).

heard on the radio this morning that the leave campaign are now looking into ways to access trade in the EU but have control over immigration, what was the point of the referendum if this is the case?
It's almost as if they didn't expect to win....

We can't have our cake and eat it, we voted out so we must leave, EU leaders are pushing for a quick exit while the Tories are now backtracking and saying there's no rush 

Cameron played a blinder when he said that it wouldn't be appropriate for him to be the one to invoke Article 50.

And I can't believe that Boris and the Govemeister didn't see it coming as a potential scenario, should their side win the day.

In the (at the time) highly unlikely event that the vote would go in favour of pulling out, Cameron was always going to fall on his sword immediately and leave some other knob to be the one to put his name to actually pulling the plug on Europe because it was pretty obvious that it'd be disastrous for the economy and would herald the beginning of a new slide into recession.

When the dust settles, Cameron may well be remembered for blowing it by committing to holding the referendum in the first place (in the mistaken hope of using a convincing Remain vote to see off his rivals) but the guy who actually pushes the Exit button will be the one taking all the risk because the chances are so overwhelming that it'll all goes tits up quickly.

And that's why Boris and the Govemeister are stalling and backtracking about timescales for action already.

Neither of them wants to do it because they know it'd be political suicide.

It's pretty obvious that neither of them thought the public would actually vote Leave and now they're a bit fucked.

They were only ever in this to try and raise their own standing within the Tory Party and it's now backfiring magnificently.

And meanwhile, Cameron can slip away with his reputation relatively intact or certainly nowhere near as damaged as it would be if he was the one who actually committed to pulling us out.

Latest from Boris:


Immigrants already in the country, including those that arrive after last weeks vote and before Article 50 negotiations are complete, will retain their rights .... so the immigrants stay. 



Also said Brits living in the EU will retain their rights - although seeing as negotiations with the EU haven't actually begun, he's lying again.

Nothing on the emerging economic crisis, the cost of Brexit to working people or the pound falling against the euro though.

Pound hits new 31-year low as shares keep sliding

 
Graeme Wearden

Over in the City, Boris Johnson’s claim this morning that “the pound is stable, the markets are stable” is turning to dust.
Sterling has suffered fresh falls this morning, and hit a new low of $1.3192 vs the US dollar.
That’s its lowest point since 1985, down almost five cents (or 3.5%) today.


 The pound vs the US dollar since midmay Photograph: Thomson Reuters
The pound has also lost almost three eurocents against the European single currency, to €1.199. That means holidays on the continent are going to be more expensive – but might help UK exporters.
Shares are also in retreat again, despite George Osborne’s attempts reassure investors.
The FTSE 100 index was down 97 points, or 1.6%, at noon, in a rout led by financial companies and property firms.
Royal Bank of Scotland has slumped by 20% to a seven-year low, in a blow to taxpayers who still own around 73% of the bank.

Vote Leave Campaign wipes it's homepage:
Much like its political leaders Boris Johnson and Michael Gove, the Vote Leave online campaign has gone rather quiet over the weekend. The Twitter and Facebook accounts have been silent since 23 June and the campaign website homepage has been wiped.
Although the campaign’s archive of pledges, briefings, speeches and op-eds written by senior campaign figures are still hosted on the site, they are no longer linked to from the homepage, making them much harder to find.
But anyone entering through the main www.voteleavetakecontrol.org link will see only a note thanking supporters and a photo of Johnson, Gove and Priti Patel campaigning in front of a battle bus emblazoned with a version of the controversial £350m claim, with no way to access any of the rest of the site.

A British man goes to the Doctors

A British man is ill and goes to the doctors. When he gets there he finds David Cameron sat at reception. "Good news sir!", says Cameron, "Today, we're not letting the doctors decide. We're going to let you pick your own medicine". The British man looks bemused. Isn't that why we have doctors in the first place? To use their expertise to pick the right medicine. Sure, some might occasionally be less good, but you can always ask to see another one.

"Don't worry!", says Cameron, "I know this is probably daunting. So I've got lots of information from lots of medical experts. They're going to tell you all about the nasty side effects of taking the wrong medicine". Just then another man pops up from behind reception - Michael Gove.  "I wouldn't trust what all of his experts say" says Gove, "he's just trying to scare you".

The man looks bemused. Can't a doctor just tell him what to take? But both Michael Gove and David Cameron tell him this choice is a really good thing.

There's another man in the doctors. He doesn't appear to have a job there, but he's talking loudly and a lot of people seem to be listening. On closer inspection it's Nigel Farage. "I wouldn't trust some of these medicines, they're foreign!". A few people nod and agree. "Back in Victorian times, we used to prescribe good old fashioned leeches. And we had an empire then!". A few more people nod. 

The British man looks confused. How do you make a decision on something so complex that you haven't been trained in? He spots a man rushing in - it's Boris Johnson. Boris has heard that there's a possible vacancy for a doctor. "Don't worry everyone, I can guide you through this!", he says. He does a cheery wave to the people waiting, then starts bumbling on using vocabulary that isn't in the normal vernacular. "He sounds clever", someone says, "and a funny, friendly guy too. I think he just wants to help, that must be why he's here". A lot of people start feeling reassured. They decide to follow the advice of Boris, Nigel and Michael. David Cameron tries to make himself heard, but he's muffled by the piles of paper of expert opinion in front of him. The medicine cabinet is almost buckling under the weight.

Boris starts to look worried. People are now looking at him for guidance. "Erm, yes...what Nigel says....leeches....they'll cure you...won't they?". He looks confused. But he's nearly in the doctors place now. He always wanted that. People take the leeches, but the leeches just start sucking their blood. A few of them start to wonder whether they should have listened to the experts after all. "But Boris, Nigel and Michael, they were only trying to help us, right?", one of them says. 

Just then, the medicine cabinet topples over, crushing Cameron. "That's such a shame" say Boris and Michael, "he was a good man. And all he wanted to do was give you a choice. For you. To help you. But we'll help you now.". But people start to get more sick. "The leeches, Nigel. You said they'd make us better, right". "Oh no", says Nigel, "I didn't say that at all. I just said that they used them in the old days. When everything was much better. Anyway, I don't even work here, so it's not my fault if you listened to me. But I'm sure everything will be great". Nigel wanders off, leaving Boris, Michael, a smashed medicine cabinet, some leeches and a lot of sick people.

Bwfc1958 wrote:A British man goes to the Doctors

A British man is ill and goes to the doctors. When he gets there he finds David Cameron sat at reception. "Good news sir!", says Cameron, "Today, we're not letting the doctors decide. We're going to let you pick your own medicine". The British man looks bemused. Isn't that why we have doctors in the first place? To use their expertise to pick the right medicine. Sure, some might occasionally be less good, but you can always ask to see another one.

"Don't worry!", says Cameron, "I know this is probably daunting. So I've got lots of information from lots of medical experts. They're going to tell you all about the nasty side effects of taking the wrong medicine". Just then another man pops up from behind reception - Michael Gove.  "I wouldn't trust what all of his experts say" says Gove, "he's just trying to scare you".

The man looks bemused. Can't a doctor just tell him what to take? But both Michael Gove and David Cameron tell him this choice is a really good thing.

There's another man in the doctors. He doesn't appear to have a job there, but he's talking loudly and a lot of people seem to be listening. On closer inspection it's Nigel Farage. "I wouldn't trust some of these medicines, they're foreign!". A few people nod and agree. "Back in Victorian times, we used to prescribe good old fashioned leeches. And we had an empire then!". A few more people nod. 

The British man looks confused. How do you make a decision on something so complex that you haven't been trained in? He spots a man rushing in - it's Boris Johnson. Boris has heard that there's a possible vacancy for a doctor. "Don't worry everyone, I can guide you through this!", he says. He does a cheery wave to the people waiting, then starts bumbling on using vocabulary that isn't in the normal vernacular. "He sounds clever", someone says, "and a funny, friendly guy too. I think he just wants to help, that must be why he's here". A lot of people start feeling reassured. They decide to follow the advice of Boris, Nigel and Michael. David Cameron tries to make himself heard, but he's muffled by the piles of paper of expert opinion in front of him. The medicine cabinet is almost buckling under the weight.

Boris starts to look worried. People are now looking at him for guidance. "Erm, yes...what Nigel says....leeches....they'll cure you...won't they?". He looks confused. But he's nearly in the doctors place now. He always wanted that. People take the leeches, but the leeches just start sucking their blood. A few of them start to wonder whether they should have listened to the experts after all. "But Boris, Nigel and Michael, they were only trying to help us, right?", one of them says. 

Just then, the medicine cabinet topples over, crushing Cameron. "That's such a shame" say Boris and Michael, "he was a good man. And all he wanted to do was give you a choice. For you. To help you. But we'll help you now.". But people start to get more sick. "The leeches, Nigel. You said they'd make us better, right". "Oh no", says Nigel, "I didn't say that at all. I just said that they used them in the old days. When everything was much better. Anyway, I don't even work here, so it's not my fault if you listened to me. But I'm sure everything will be great". Nigel wanders off, leaving Boris, Michael, a smashed medicine cabinet, some leeches and a lot of sick people.

Not sure what you were smoking when you wrote this 58 but it's a good analogy - although the way the markets are punishing us today you might wish to add the doctor's surgery being swallowed up by a big hole in the ground.

boltonbonce wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36644934

To paraphrase one of our own...


Thank you Boris.

As near as damn it as you're going to get...............


https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/27/mervyn-king-brexit-treasury-claim-backfired-osborne

No point putting this up CD, it'll be ignored, or talked down as irrelevant.

That's it chaps, i'll see you when the football starts.

Take it easy Glos.

gloswhite wrote:No point putting this up CD, it'll be ignored, or talked down as irrelevant.

That's it chaps, i'll see you when the football starts.

Christ, don't start playing the victim Glos.

I'm not a victim of anything 74. I've got other things to do, and going around in circles on here is taking up too much time, (and its bloody frustrating ).  I'm still here, still reading, but won't be joining in, for now. Consider it my summer break

Copper Dragon wrote:As near as damn it as you're going to get...............


https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/27/mervyn-king-brexit-treasury-claim-backfired-osborne

Nobody wants to listen to experts

Barb Dwyer wrote:Nobody wants to listen to experts

I know.

All the experts voted remain, so we don't stand a chance.

Although World War 3 hasn't started yet and the NHS hasn't crumbled into dust.