Football Ventures Share Ownership.

All we know for certain is Anderson took the £525k out of the club and £120k was paid to a company owned by one of his family. And that’s all Conn said, so not sure what you’re getting at there Bob.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:

Sluffy wrote:

He didn't think it was in anyway strange that an a quaint provincial, little  northern mill town club like ours carried the worlds fourth biggest club debt only bettered by Real Madrid, Manchester United and Valencia and bigger than the likes of Chelsea, Manchester City, Barcelona, PSG, Juventus, Inter Milan, etc, etc!

Totally agree that Iles is poor on the finance angle, but the above point is actually more common place than you'd think.

At the time we had the fourth largest debt in world football I believe QPR were 3rd, even today the Coates family are operating as Davies had with us by loaning money to Stoke so I think they're top 10.

No, at the time we were the fourth debt laden football club behind as I've posted above, Manchester United, Real Madrid and Valencia - they may have been fifth, I don't know but we certainly only had those three clubs I mentioned in front of us.

Don't get me wrong though, debt in itself is not a problem - United and Real Madrid are I believe the world's two biggest in debt clubs in the world still, but they are also the two most profitable ones as well.

Debt only becomes a problem when you can't service it - and as a 'brand' we were never going to compete on the same stage as United and Real and our debt servicing was reliant on just one person and not banks/institutions like the others.

The issue Iles should have been bothered about was how and why a relative unknown man who was seemingly an 'employee' for a kettle parts manufacturer in the Isle of Mann had so much money available to him to have a 'vanity' project in the shape of his home town football club and pour £200m into it???

Shouldn't any reporter 'sniff' a story there???

Either questioning how this could be or lauding the man for his benevolence but Iles did neither?

It was well known that Eddie was trying to sell the club for a number of years before he did - Iles never seemed to be aware of that?

We splurged out on massive wages and lengthy contracts (eg Ben Amos) just weeks before Eddie stopped putting money into the club resulting in the HMRC court case - Iles never seem to wonder why the massive sudden change in our financial direction came about - he certainly didn't write about it.

There's massive question marks about the BluMarble loan - he's never once queried it, nor questioned Holdsworth role in it?

He clearly doesn't understand finance and how it effects the club on the pitch - even effecting if we have no club at all, or end up with questionable owners.

Now I'm not criticising Iles or anyone else for not having that knowledge but not having the gumption to question what's going on and why - that's his job - and working on a paper where you have fellow journalist who specialise in business and finance he could easily get help and advise couldn't he!.  It shouldn't be beyond his wit to ask someone who does know a bit of financial knowledge and ask them what it all means, surely?

The best he seemed to manage was to be spoon fed the ST who believed everything (which included finance) that Holdsworth did was good and right and everything Anderson did was bad and wrong!

For me where he went badly wrong in my opinion was to move from being a journalist with no financial knowledge and unable to spot a story under his very nose, to becoming one with a personal championing of Holdsworth and the ST on social media and influencing many against Anderson based on lack of any understanding about everything going on 'off' the pitch and by being led/in league with, those who wanted Anderson out for their own reasons.

Anyway Iles is not going anywhere and if he sticks to the football on the pitch and his thoughts of finance off social media then at least he will be making some sort of improvement at least.

As for benevolent owners, yes you are right, many clubs have them but as we've seen in our clubs case and now Wigan's if our benevolent owner turns off the money tap, when we are in a financially unsustainable place, then we are in big, big trouble!  

However that is the financial model we work to in this country and it will be interesting (academically at least) to see if the virus changes that significantly for the future?

I don’t disagree with you, I just think it’s worth pointing out that such high level of debt for seemingly middle of the road clubs like us isn’t as uncommon as it should be.

Sluffy wrote:

No, at the time we were the fourth debt laden football club behind as I've posted above, Manchester United, Real Madrid and Valencia - they may have been fifth, I don't know but we certainly only had those three clubs I mentioned in front of us.

Don't get me wrong though, debt in itself is not a problem - United and Real Madrid are I believe the world's two biggest in debt clubs in the world still, but they are also the two most profitable ones as well.

Debt only becomes a problem when you can't service it - and as a 'brand' we were never going to compete on the same stage as United and Real and our debt servicing was reliant on just one person and not banks/institutions like the others.

The issue Iles should have been bothered about was how and why a relative unknown man who was seemingly an 'employee' for a kettle parts manufacturer in the Isle of Mann had so much money available to him to have a 'vanity' project in the shape of his home town football club and pour £200m into it???

Shouldn't any reporter 'sniff' a story there???

Either questioning how this could be or lauding the man for his benevolence but Iles did neither?

It was well known that Eddie was trying to sell the club for a number of years before he did - Iles never seemed to be aware of that?

We splurged out on massive wages and lengthy contracts (eg Ben Amos) just weeks before Eddie stopped putting money into the club resulting in the HMRC court case - Iles never seem to wonder why the massive sudden change in our financial direction came about - he certainly didn't write about it.

There's massive question marks about the BluMarble loan - he's never once queried it, nor questioned Holdsworth role in it?

He clearly doesn't understand finance and how it effects the club on the pitch - even effecting if we have no club at all, or end up with questionable owners.

Now I'm not criticising Iles or anyone else for not having that knowledge but not having the gumption to question what's going on and why - that's his job - and working on a paper where you have fellow journalist who specialise in business and finance he could easily get help and advise couldn't he!.  It shouldn't be beyond his wit to ask someone who does know a bit of financial knowledge and ask them what it all means, surely?

The best he seemed to manage was to be spoon fed the ST who believed everything (which included finance) that Holdsworth did was good and right and everything Anderson did was bad and wrong!

For me where he went badly wrong in my opinion was to move from being a journalist with no financial knowledge and unable to spot a story under his very nose, to becoming one with a personal championing of Holdsworth and the ST on social media and influencing many against Anderson based on lack of any understanding about everything going on 'off' the pitch and by being led/in league with, those who wanted Anderson out for their own reasons.

Anyway Iles is not going anywhere and if he sticks to the football on the pitch and his thoughts of finance off social media then at least he will be making some sort of improvement at least.

As for benevolent owners, yes you are right, many clubs have them but as we've seen in our clubs case and now Wigan's if our benevolent owner turns off the money tap, when we are in a financially unsustainable place, then we are in big, big trouble!  

However that is the financial model we work to in this country and it will be interesting (academically at least) to see if the virus changes that significantly for the future?

Sorry Sluffy. You may know your onions, but one or two of them are slightly off. Eddie Davies was never a Dale Vince type and the only mystery of where the money came from was in the minds of those who hadn't checked their facts and got their thinking heads on.

And that nitwit, Conn, was so stupid that he thought that Eddie Davies was profiting by paying off bank debts and replacing them with debt due to himself that was never likely to be repaid and never was repaid.

Again, all Conn said was that KA took £525k plus £120k out of the club, no speculation was offered as to what happened to that money.

You're confusing your theories with fact again Bob.

Ten Bobsworth wrote:
Sorry Sluffy. You may know your onions, but one or two of them are slightly off. Eddie Davies was never a Dale Vince type and the only mystery of where the money came from was in the minds of those who hadn't checked their facts and got their thinking heads on.

And that nitwit, Conn, was so stupid that he thought that Eddie Davies was profiting by paying off bank debts and replacing them with debt due to himself that was never likely to be repaid and never was repaid.

A tiff?  I was wondering when it was going to happen. Very different views on ED who I personally thought did wonders for us - and as for "turning the tap off" we have no idea how long before that ED told them it was going to happen? Years to prepare? Who knows?

Ten Bobsworth wrote:Sorry Sluffy. You may know your onions, but one or two of them are slightly off. Eddie Davies was never a Dale Vince type and the only mystery of where the money came from was in the minds of those who hadn't checked their facts and got their thinking heads on.

I never said he was.

And the only public information at that time was that Eddie's fortune was believed to be estimated to be £98m resulting from the shares he held in Strix

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Can't blame people for wondering why anyone of that wealth would want to risk it all on a football club which (for tax purposes as an IoM resident could even see play in person every game)?

At least I can't - and I'm one of those that did!

I was just curious as to what was reported and what was happening didn't seem to match up to my way of thinking at least.

I can hardly accuse anyone like Iles of not having an enquiring mind if I didn't have one myself now could I - at least not being a hypocrite myself if doing so.

I satisfied myself that nothing untoward was happening but clearly many didn't and still think Eddie was up to something.

Seemed an obvious story to me for a local journalist to look into and report on, particularly as there were loads of unfounded accusations going around at the time on social media.

I would have thought the Bolton News would happily want to dispel such rumours, and come up with the true story - but no, Iles didn't - and hence the myth continued to circulate - even believed now by some still 12 years later!

How hard would it have been for him to phone his opposite number on the Isle of Man local newspaper and get some background on Eddie and his money would it? That's the type of thing I would have been doing in Ile's place fwiw.

Again all water under the bridge but a simple nose for a story and a bit of background research on Eddies financial matters by Iles back then would have clarified things instead of letting them fester with some, as it did.

I have wondered for years how ED actually financed the club for so long if he was worth £98m and how he could write off debts of £140m? Surely he must have had other backers in the background?

wanderlust wrote:

Ten Bobsworth wrote:
Sorry Sluffy. You may know your onions, but one or two of them are slightly off. Eddie Davies was never a Dale Vince type and the only mystery of where the money came from was in the minds of those who hadn't checked their facts and got their thinking heads on.

And that nitwit, Conn, was so stupid that he thought that Eddie Davies was profiting by paying off bank debts and replacing them with debt due to himself that was never likely to be repaid and never was repaid.

A tiff?  I was wondering when it was going to happen. Very different views on ED who I personally thought did wonders for us - and as for "turning the tap off" we have no idea how long before that ED told them it was going to happen? Years to prepare? Who knows?

???

What are you talking about?

I think Davies was a wonderful benefactor to the club also.

And by all accounts Davies gave notice some 18 months before he was going to withdraw his funding which made the award of a three year contract on a reported £16k per week to Amos a month before he did indeed turn off the taps somewhat questionable as far as I'm concerned.  Anyway the point I was making (which you totally missed!) was why Iles didn't think 'just a minute' we've just given a player a contract for around about £2m in total just a week or so ago and now we can't pay the tax bill and being taken to court, what's going on?'  Surely there's a story there isn't there?

Iles never wrote about it though.

Did he?

No he didn't!

Exhibit A

Hands up all those who think Eddie stuck the money under the mattress and hands up those who think he might have invested it and that the investments might have grown.

[size=32]MULTIMILLION-POUND STRIX DEAL WILL NOT AFFECT SITES[/size]
09:23Tuesday 03 May 2005
STRIX Group Limited, the Island-based kettle control manufacturer, has been sold to the private equity arm of Dutch bank ABN Amro in a deal believed to be worth £300 million.
ABN Amro Capital completed a leveraged buyout of Strix, taking control of the company from its current management and Montagu Private Equity, which had a stake of 40 per cent in the business.
Eddie Davies, owner of Strix, will receive around 100m for his shareholding, retaining a stake of less than five per cent and staying on as non-executive chairman. The deal means that ABN Amro's investment group will hold approximately 75 per cent of the company, leaving the remainder in the hands of 12 Strix managers.
Brian Amey, Strix chief executive, said the Isle of Man would be unaffected by the developments and its manufacturing sites in Malew and Ramsey would operate as normal. Two members of the ABN AMRO Capital team will join the Strix board.
Mr Amey added: 'It's very similar to the deal we did in 2000, (with HSBC] it provides ongoing funding. They are buying into what they see as a successful company, so there will be no changes in the short term.
'The real message is that we have the financial backing to sell new products into new areas. We are in great stead to invest further in research and development, boost innovation, develop new products and take advantage of opportunities in emerging markets, while maintaining our usual high standards of safety and quality.'
He added that the company would be looking to develop markets for its products in China, the rest of Asia, Eastern Europe and Russia.
Strix manufacturers kettle controls, thermostats and water boiling elements for multinational companies such as Philips, Kenwood and Braun. The group was founded in 1979 by John Taylor, the kettle control inventor, and developed throughout the 80s and 90s by present chairman Eddie Davies.
ABN AMRO Capital made 13 investments in Europe last year with five in the UK, including Ethel Austin for 122.5m and GB Holiday Parks for 105m. It currently has 1.9 billion euros of funds under management.
The deal is being supported with senior and mezzanine debt from The Royal Bank of Scotland Leveraged Finance and Mizuho Corporate
Bank.


Exhibit B


Hands up all those who think it was 'handy' for Eddie to lend money to a company that couldn't afford to pay the interest or repay the capital. Hands up all those who think it wasn't.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

And btw when The Offshore Game managed to get hold of the Fildraw Trust accounts (don't ask me where they got them from, I don't know) the investments had grown to £170m.

Quite a few years ago that.

How much is left? Anybody's guess but Eddie would probably have left or given away a lot more than £200m if he hadn't spent his money on BWFC.

It was a lot easier to get into than to get out of.

Norpig wrote:I have wondered for years how ED actually financed the club for so long if he was worth £98m and how he could write off debts of £140m? Surely he must have had other backers in the background?

The problem was always that the Sunday Times got his wealth estimate wrong and he was actually worth far in excess of the £98m they reported.

He was also described around that time being the MD of the company, implying he was just a paid employee, again that turns out to be not fully accurate as he was also partner in the business.

As I say if Iles had got his finger out and phoned up his opposite number in the Isle of Man newspaper he would probably have been better informed on such things and been able to put the record straight at the time.

He didn't.

Didn't even seem to see/think there was even a story in it?

Either that or he just shied away from anything financial because he couldn't understand such stuff and was presumably afraid to ask others who could?

Either way he didn't react in anyway even though he must have seen comments on social media about it - and even now after all those years later!

Do you think that young lad who has covered Wigan's Administration so brilliantly is a financial expert, because I don't but he is someone prepared to ask the question of others who are and get the answers he got out there.

Isn't that what Iles should be doing too as and when things like this arise over the years at the club?

Instead he seems just to be a mouthpiece for the likes of the ST, and David Wheater to use and be the centre of attention on Twitter instead.

Anyone else note that his wings have seemed to have been clipped substantially on Twitter and he now keeps his views and agendas to himself, since Bonnar was shown the door and a new boss has come in?

No surprise that FV have kept him following his ill judged personal tweets against them prior to the takeover!

Sluffy wrote:
Anyone else note that his wings have seemed to have been clipped substantially on Twitter and he now keeps his views and agendas to himself, since Bonnar was shown the door and a new boss has come in?

No! And I'm shocked that you have to be honest, surely there are better/more interesting journalists you'd prefer to be reading??

Norpig wrote:I have wondered for years how ED actually financed the club for so long if he was worth £98m and how he could write off debts of £140m? Surely he must have had other backers in the background?

"Been wondering for years, have you, Walter?" 

"I don't think he can grasp it"

T.R.O.Y. wrote:

Sluffy wrote:
Anyone else note that his wings have seemed to have been clipped substantially on Twitter and he now keeps his views and agendas to himself, since Bonnar was shown the door and a new boss has come in?

No! And I'm shocked that you have to be honest, surely there are better/more interesting journalists you'd prefer to be reading??

I'm sure there are but for daily BWFC news/gossip I don't have much choice other than to view Iles and Nixon on Twitter.

And it's Nixon who usually breaks the news first - and he has plenty of clubs to follow for his job whilst Iles only has the one!

Ten Bobsworth wrote:
"Been wondering for years, have you, Walter?" 

"I don't think he can grasp it"

Is there not a secure geriatric unit you can wander into and never come out of? I can recommend a few if you like? It would have to be one without internet access obviously.

Norpig wrote:
Is there not a secure geriatric unit you can wander into and never come out of? I can recommend a few if you like? It would have to be one without internet access obviously.

"I don't think my Walter's feeling very well, Nellie. The last time he was like this was when he'd overdosed on pickled gherkin."

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

In true pointless style see if you can guess the phrase below nine bob

F_ _k  _ _f  y_u  b_ri_g  ol_  c_ _t

Seems like the share ownership has changed since last year

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Interesting, thanks BTID.

Seems Sharon shares have gone down by 250,000
Michael James remaing the same.
Jeff Thomas selling all his holding of 500,000
Nick Luckock remaing the same
And the Company (Football Ventures (Whites) Ltd) buying back the 'sold' 750,000 shares to hold that number in its name.

FV (Whites) Ltd being owned of course by its shareholders being

Nick Luckock with 1,500,000 shares
Sharon with 1,250,000
and Mike James with 500,000.

So they would therefore be in effect the owners of the 750,000 shares held by FV (Whites)

The total number of shares adds up to £4m at £1 per share issue price.

At that point I become out of my depth on this as on the 6th Sept, 2019 the statement of Capital following share allocation to be only £2,750,000 and I can't see where share allocation increased to £4m as shown in the 21st January, 2020 confirmation statement?

My simple understanding from the updated confirmation statement registered at todays date at Companies House is that there are £4m 'A' shares at £1 each and are currently owned as stated.

There are 'B' shares issued in the company but I think(?) they don't confer voting rights.

I'm sure Bob will set me right if I've got any of the above wrong.