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Keith Hill has gone

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1Keith Hill has gone Empty Keith Hill has gone Fri Jun 12 2020, 17:08

BoltonTillIDie

BoltonTillIDie
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Bolton Wanderers Football Club can confirm that it will not be offering new contracts to Keith Hill and David Flitcroft when their current deals expire at the end of the month.



The Board would like to place on record its gratitude to Keith and David who took over the managerial reins in August 2019 and extends its very best wishes for their future careers.

Chairman of Bolton Wanderers Football Club, Sharon Brittan, said: “On behalf of the board I would like to thank Keith and David for their work since being appointed last year.

“Following on from this week's announcement by the EFL and confirmation that Bolton Wanderers will be playing in Sky Bet League Two next season, we believe it to be in the best interests of the Club that we have a fresh approach to our management and coaching structure for the next season and beyond.

“I would like to wish Keith and David all the very best for the future.”



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2Keith Hill has gone Empty Re: Keith Hill has gone Fri Jun 12 2020, 17:11

karlypants

karlypants
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Who do people fancy taking the job on?

3Keith Hill has gone Empty Re: Keith Hill has gone Fri Jun 12 2020, 17:22

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Anyone without a connection to BWFC.

4Keith Hill has gone Empty Re: Keith Hill has gone Fri Jun 12 2020, 17:46

BoltonTillIDie

BoltonTillIDie
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Bound to be someone with a link to Bolton

5Keith Hill has gone Empty Re: Keith Hill has gone Fri Jun 12 2020, 17:52

Cajunboy

Cajunboy
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Anyone without a connection to BWFC.
Totally agree with that sentiment.

6Keith Hill has gone Empty Re: Keith Hill has gone Fri Jun 12 2020, 18:39

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
I guess a number of internal factors have been in place recently as it seems to me with Emma leaving and now the manager and assistant not having their contracts renewed and with no income coming in that was budgeted for (six home games (iirc?) and all the match day sales, etc) that finances are probably driving what's going on).

I would imagine that Phillips and Lee's jobs are up in the air, with no under 23's anymore and it would be interesting to know if they are on fixed term contracts or opened ones - and if so when do the fixed term end or how much redundancy will it cost to get shut of them?

There may even be a scenario were Phillips and Lee replace Hill and Flitcroft, not as the best people for the job but simply to save money on redundancies?

I still don't understand the role of Phoenix nor the involvement of Kenyon?

There was talk of a change at Director level iirc, not seen anything yet, should be interesting as and when that happens.

To be honest I can't see much benefit of even appointing a manager (and his mates he will want to bring along with him) until the club knows a bit more of how they will be funded next season with no crowds and/or what it costs to put in place social distancing infra structure and systems.

Maybe before then the 2m rule will have been scrapped and it be deemed safe to go to the match as normal?

Who knows but I think money/costs are in the forefront of the thinking of whatever is going on right now and the planning for the immediate future.

7Keith Hill has gone Empty Re: Keith Hill has gone Fri Jun 12 2020, 18:47

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I am surprised they've done it now, thought they'd give him till Christmas. I think it will be David Lee now as it's the cheap option and it will go down well with most fans.

8Keith Hill has gone Empty Re: Keith Hill has gone Fri Jun 12 2020, 18:48

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:I am surprised they've done it now, thought they'd give him till Christmas. I think it will be David Lee now as it's the cheap option and it will go down well with most fans.

Not this fan.

We need a clean break.

Micky Adams for me. Alan Irvine as assistant.

9Keith Hill has gone Empty Re: Keith Hill has gone Fri Jun 12 2020, 18:50

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Jesus Nat you've been recycling those names for as long as i've been on this site  Very Happy

10Keith Hill has gone Empty Re: Keith Hill has gone Fri Jun 12 2020, 18:55

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Jesus Nat you've been recycling those names for as long as i've been on this site  Very Happy

And each time I've been ignored. How did that work out?

Let me pick the next manager.

11Keith Hill has gone Empty Re: Keith Hill has gone Fri Jun 12 2020, 19:39

wessy

wessy
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
i never quite understand the automatic knee jerk reaction to appoint a former Wanderer, ok it worked with Big sam but he turned out to be special and a Premeirship class manager, Coyle bombed, Sammy Lee say no more, Even the great Nat Lofthouse couldn't hack it.

Fans clammering for one of the following Nolan, Lee, Brown, or Phillips. Even Mcginlay and Davies mentioned Really ?  

 The last two have no experience at all, Jimmy Phillips as had ample opportunities and would bore me to death not good enough, Phil Brown yes 15 years ago maybe, but surely that ship has sailed, Nolan one decent season at L2 level then bombed out, leaving David Lee a great coach and can see some appeal due to our financial position, but again not for me, do we really want to risk giving it to somebody with no experience at all, also if he bombs we then loose his coaching ability.

Not a clue who we should appoint but other than Sam our previous success comes from appointing an outsider , Neil, Armfield,Greaves, Rioch, Todd. I hope that the right guy is due to pop up again and that he just happens to be on the shortlist.

12Keith Hill has gone Empty Re: Keith Hill has gone Fri Jun 12 2020, 20:30

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
The bookies have Barrow manager Ian Evatt as one of the favourites.

I wouldn't argue with that, done a fine job at Barrow in the last couple of years.

13Keith Hill has gone Empty Re: Keith Hill has gone Fri Jun 12 2020, 22:49

Whitesince63


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
I’m not sure why you’re all so against one of our own getting the job. Personally I’d go for David Lee, supported by Tony Kelly and Nicky Spooner. I think it’s David’s time, he’s a really positive and bright character and I’m sure would get the best from our young squad. I think it’s a bit insulting to label him a cheap option. Yes it would be less expensive as they’re already here but also because it doesn’t involve a journeyman manager coming in and bringing his own mates with him. I’d see that as a positive not a negative. I wouldn’t have a problem with a young manager of potential like Ian Evett who has everything in front of him but I definitely don’t want the likes of Clough and others who’ve constantly failed.

14Keith Hill has gone Empty Re: Keith Hill has gone Fri Jun 12 2020, 23:07

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:I’m not sure why you’re all so against one of our own getting the job. Personally I’d go for David Lee, supported by Tony Kelly and Nicky Spooner. I think it’s David’s time, he’s a really positive and bright character and I’m sure would get the best from our young squad. I think it’s a bit insulting to label him a cheap option. Yes it would be less expensive as they’re already here but also because it doesn’t involve a journeyman manager coming in and bringing his own mates with him. I’d see that as a positive not a negative. I wouldn’t have a problem with a young manager of potential like Ian Evett who has everything in front of him but I definitely don’t want the likes of Clough and others who’ve constantly failed.

I've nothing against David Lee and compared to some of the journeymen being mentioned I'd prefer him. But If David Lee had never played for Bolton and was currently managing, say, Coventry's under 23's would he be in with a shot of the job?



15Keith Hill has gone Empty Re: Keith Hill has gone Fri Jun 12 2020, 23:51

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:I’m not sure why you’re all so against one of our own getting the job. Personally I’d go for David Lee, supported by Tony Kelly and Nicky Spooner. I think it’s David’s time, he’s a really positive and bright character and I’m sure would get the best from our young squad. I think it’s a bit insulting to label him a cheap option. Yes it would be less expensive as they’re already here but also because it doesn’t involve a journeyman manager coming in and bringing his own mates with him. I’d see that as a positive not a negative. I wouldn’t have a problem with a young manager of potential like Ian Evett who has everything in front of him but I definitely don’t want the likes of Clough and others who’ve constantly failed.

Hello 63, good to see you post on here again, hope you stick around, you're certainly wasted amongst the trolls on the Bolton News comments section!

Not sure if one of your comments about Lee being cheap was pointed in my direction but I'm certain money is tighter than what could have been possibly expected at this stage by FV and I'm fairly convinced that Emma's leaving to save the club money, in such the same way as Clough moved aside at Burton because of the financial hole they found themselves in with no games/income coming due to the virus.

It's no secret that most clubs in the bottom two tiers voted to end the season simply because playing games with no matchday income means trading at a loss - which most of them can not sustain.  Their fear is that there may well be no crowds allowed back for the foreseeable future, maybe in to next year, and thus they have to tailor the limited money they receive to sustain themselves indefinitely until crowds (and their money) are allowed back.

They will not know how many season tickets they will be able to sell because although people say they will still continue to buy one for next season, people don't always back up their words with actions and when it comes to the time to commit they may not see the point of spending money on games they can not even attend.

Added to that there's no telling how many might end up out of a job due to the economy collapsing, certainly anyone working in hospitality, holidays, leisure, etc face an uncertain future.

So if I were FV I'd be holding fire on committing to a manager for as long as I can until some things (the return of the fans at games for instance) become much more clearer.

I've no idea really what job Lee now does, is he even still at the club, if so what are they paying him to do?  I would have thought his job to the u23's no longer exists and had presumed he's being made redundant or awaiting the end of the season (30th June?) to the end of his contract?

Should we have Lee as the manager?

He's no experience and crucially to my mind he doesn't know the league we will be playing in, or the players from that league (someone's going to have to put a squad together) nor the teams/managers/players we will be facing next season.

His plus points are that he knows the youngsters he's brought through and I doubt he will seek a fortune in wages.  He also knows well the rest of the clubs backroom staff, so there wouldn't be a massive clear out/cost as there would if some new manager from outside was appointed.

If I were FV Lee would be the option that most appealed to me as say an interim manager, until the dust settles more with playing behind closed doors/actual sales of ST/stability within the club for now.

Once things have cleared a bit I would look for some experienced and sensible manager at our new level, who knows his way around this league (even the local conference level).  Maybe like the Barrow manager (although I hadn't even heard of him until today) who might fit such a criteria?

So yes, I stand by my view of Lee being a cheap option but I certainly wouldn't bet the house on him, with him knowing nothing of this league, teams or players and giving him the job simply because he's an ex-player and had a bit of success with the reserves playing in the combination league or whatever it is called against teams like Barrow Bridge reserves and Rawtenstall thirds.

Needs must though and FV will look at their bank statements and what they have left in their saving up jar and plump for the best they can afford which may well be David Lee.

16Keith Hill has gone Empty Re: Keith Hill has gone Sat Jun 13 2020, 11:59

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson
Personally, I'm surprised Pay Per View games haven't been pushed for by the clubs. With no income, I'm sure the authorities would be prepared to waive the rules.

17Keith Hill has gone Empty Re: Keith Hill has gone Sat Jun 13 2020, 12:31

terenceanne

terenceanne
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
Normally I'm in favor of getting rid of the recent managers but I'm going the other way on this one - This is a total mistake IMO

We are back to square one - No CEO no managers, no players, no money. Forget all about getting a name brand manager. That person would demand a good salary which we are not going to pay. 
To me the whole thing is another step backwards.

What is the state of our club when League Two begins - I dunno.

18Keith Hill has gone Empty Re: Keith Hill has gone Sat Jun 13 2020, 12:55

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Normally I'm in favor of getting rid of the recent managers but I'm going the other way on this one - This is a total mistake IMO


I'm not sure of your reasoning. We should keep him on just so we've got a manager?

19Keith Hill has gone Empty Re: Keith Hill has gone Sat Jun 13 2020, 13:03

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson
I believe that Keith Hill had to go, and I also believe that the management have this planned out, taking into consideration all the problems we've been through. Hopefully, we'll at least start off on an even keel, something we haven't had for a very long time.

20Keith Hill has gone Empty Re: Keith Hill has gone Sat Jun 13 2020, 13:07

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
Iles did a bit of a blog yesterday and these were some of the more interesting comments he made -

5:23pm

Far too early to be talking about favourites - but fair to say that the club has had its feelers out for a while.
Kevin Nolan has NOT been contacted.  

5:26pm

I think the club will go for the right man. Don't think it excludes those in work.

5:32pm

No favourite - because frankly I don't think the process is anywhere near finished.
My gut feeling is that they will appoint an external candidate.

5:33pm

I think they will look down the 'younger' [manager] route, yes.

5:43pm

I think it's fair to say that some of the outbursts [Hill's] (particularly post-Rochdale) were not received well.

6:08pm

My money is on a more continental style head coach, with the recruitment department being built above. Similar to Brentford, for example.

[this earlier tweet relates to this point -

5:29pm

It would seem the mainstay of recruitment is in the hands of Tobias Phoenix, so it shouldn't have a huge impact on the plans.
As I understand it, the club want to structure the recruitment department so that it exists regardless of the manager (i.e. you don't have to rip up and start again after each one). ].

6:08pm

My money is on a more continental style head coach, with the recruitment department being built above. Similar to Brentford, for example.

6:48pm

I am certain there haven't been interviews - but for a few weeks we have been hearing that the club has been looking to see who could be available [to replace Hill].

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

21Keith Hill has gone Empty Re: Keith Hill has gone Sat Jun 13 2020, 14:35

wessy

wessy
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
What FV lack in cash they have to make up for by being smart and have a plan, hopefully this is stage one of a well thought out long term plan, Corona virus obviously was not part of any plan hence Emma going to save cash. 

Looks like a long list of candidates lets hope they make a good choice and the fans stick with them. KH talked himself out of favour at board level and with the fans we need a new Rioch type to get a positive vibe back, A lot on the list i know little about but maybe Sam Ricketts looks the part ?

If part of the plan is to emulate Brentford we could do much worse.

22Keith Hill has gone Empty Re: Keith Hill has gone Sat Jun 13 2020, 15:31

T.R.O.Y.


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
They've got the right idea for how they want to run thongs, but Brentford's model has still taken consistent levels of investment to get it off the ground.

Shame Hill didn't work out as he clearly loves the club, but I'm glad it's a clean break. I always lean towards taking a punt on lower league managers and players rather than known entities. Whatever happens next season needs to start with a bang.

23Keith Hill has gone Empty Re: Keith Hill has gone Sat Jun 13 2020, 16:04

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:They've got the right idea for how they want to run thongs, but Brentford's model has still taken consistent levels of investment to get it off the ground.

Shame Hill didn't work out as he clearly loves the club, but I'm glad it's a clean break. I always lean towards taking a punt on lower league managers and players rather than known entities. Whatever happens next season needs to start with a bang.

Hill is Bolton born but he's widely known to be a United supporter.

Not unusual in Bolton as when Hill was a youngster United were winning things and Bolton were in the lower divisions.

Fwiw I don't think the Brentford model and/or Moneyball (are they meant to be the same thing?) are that good because if they were every club in the leagues would be doing them.  Aren't all clubs already looking to sign unknowns for buttons and sell them for millions?

Similarly although I can understand having a certain 'style' of play and employing 'coaches' rather than managers to fit the style as opposed to continually rip teams apart to change the style the 'manager' wants the club to play, if the chosen 'style' we put our mortgage on isn't successful and/or is so known to the opposition, then that's never going to work long term - think Coyle and his all out attack/no defence style for instance.

Compare however with Allardyce who was wrongly labelled a long ball manager when in fact he could nix it up by signing players with abundant skill such as Djorkaeff, Hierro and Okocha.

The bottom line for me is that teams and players must be able to do the basics well, the scouts should be able to spot talent,  the club must be able to attract them and the manager must be able to adapt, develop and motivate them as a team unit and be able to ongoingly out fox the opposition whilst he is here.

Allardyce seemed to get it right, Megson did in a fashion that was unpopular and no one else since.

And in these times all that needs to be done within a tight budget.

To be fair I thought Hill did ok until things obviously changed behind the scenes at the onset of the January window but after that it all turned to shit and his press conferences were utterly weird and terrible - unacceptable in fact imo.

If the idea of FV is to tick over at the third/fourth tier levels then I'm sure they could achieve that but I simply can't see how they are going to trade in profit let alone are going to get a return on their investment which in theory at least means refunding the £40m worth of initial investment in just over two years time.

24Keith Hill has gone Empty Re: Keith Hill has gone Sat Jun 13 2020, 16:21

T.R.O.Y.


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Out of interest, what don’t you like about the Brentford model?

25Keith Hill has gone Empty Re: Keith Hill has gone Sat Jun 13 2020, 16:53

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:They've got the right idea for how they want to run thongs

Are they moving into lingerie?

26Keith Hill has gone Empty Re: Keith Hill has gone Sat Jun 13 2020, 16:57

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Out of interest, what don’t you like about the Brentford model?

I'm sure it's fine.

I'm just saying if it really was the way forward then all the other clubs would have been doing it by now.

Apparently Preston do similar but I don't know of any other club doing it?

To be honest I don't really know what the Brentford model is - I thought it was the Moneyball approach - which I was aware of having a slight interest in baseball from a number of years back - indeed I happened to watch Oakland play at the Coliseum around the time it was happening (although I was unaware of what the plan was back then and just took it as a normal game).

So if the Brentford plan is Moneyball, then are they also imposing a top down system in the way they play - as we are led to believe that is what Phoenix is here for - in which case it is a variation as such on Moneyball as not only is the plan to find underrated/overlooked players but to find underrated/overlooked players than it into a certain style of play that the club determines it wants.

I'm sure Brentford's model looks to scout the continent, in which case they are sourcing a different type of underrated/overlooked player than the likes of Faal and the young kid from Blackpool who we 'scooped' everybody else with from lower tier nonleague.

Looks to me we are looking to bring in players we can develop rather than those that have had a 'chance' at other clubs already but have not seen to be a success at where they've been for whatever reason.

If so that isn't Moneyball as per the Brentford model as I understand it, it's a different strategy seeking players in a different market, to develop and sell on.

Isn't that what most clubs do now anyway?



Last edited by Sluffy on Sat Jun 13 2020, 17:05; edited 1 time in total

27Keith Hill has gone Empty Re: Keith Hill has gone Sat Jun 13 2020, 17:01

T.R.O.Y.


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

Are they moving into lingerie?
 
Probably be more popular with our fans if they did.

28Keith Hill has gone Empty Re: Keith Hill has gone Sat Jun 13 2020, 17:23

terenceanne

terenceanne
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
Supposedly we already had a long term plan with Keith etc. 
So a new manger brings a different plan?
Last time I checked we still have some financials not resolved and under the embargo and half a team currently. I can't immediately see how somebody coming in who knows nowt about the club will be able to do anything. Hopefully I stand to be corrected.

29Keith Hill has gone Empty Re: Keith Hill has gone Sat Jun 13 2020, 17:26

T.R.O.Y.


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I'm sure it's fine.

I'm just saying if it really was the way forward then all the other clubs would have been doing it by now.

Apparently Preston do similar but I don't know of any other club doing it?

To be honest I don't really know what the Brentford model is - I thought it was the Moneyball approach - which I was aware of having a slight interest in baseball from a number of years back - indeed I happened to watch Oakland play at the Coliseum around the time it was happening (although I was unaware of what the plan was back then and just took it as a normal game).

So if the Brentford plan is Moneyball, then are they also imposing a top down system in the way they play - as we are led to believe that is what Phoenix is here for - in which case it is a variation as such on Moneyball as not only is the plan to find underrated/overlooked players but to find underrated/overlooked players than it into a certain style of play that the club determines it wants.

I'm sure Brentford's model looks to scout the continent, in which case they are sourcing a different type of underrated/overlooked player than the likes of Faal and the young kid from Blackpool who we 'scooped' everybody else with from lower tier nonleague.

Looks to me we are looking to bring in players we can develop rather than those that have had a 'chance' at other clubs already but have not seen to be a success at where they've been for whatever reason.

If so that isn't Moneyball as per the Brentford model as I understand it, it's a different strategy seeking players in a different market, to develop and sell on.

Isn't that what most clubs do now anyway?


I suppose the obvious question here is what is your understanding of the money ball system employed by Brentford?

I can’t pretend to be an expert but I know they cut their academy completely as they couldn’t compete with other London clubs and instead focus on a B team picking up ‘elite club’ rejects.

Wonder if the decision to cut the academy funding back is linked to this. 

There’s also a major data analysis element, no idea if we have anyone in the club at the moment who is pushing this?

30Keith Hill has gone Empty Re: Keith Hill has gone Sat Jun 13 2020, 18:14

Whitesince63


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
Hi Sluffy, trust you’re keeping well? Naturally I need to keep people in line on the BN site and also Trotters Forever but of course you have Natasha to do that on here and who would argue with her? Certainly not me!! ;-) Anyway, no I wasn’t specifically referring to you regarding DL being a cheap option, it’s mentioned by many as if it’s something bad but I actually think it’s a plus. Much as I’d like David to get a chance I think if it was going to happen it would already have been confirmed, which probably means it won’t, which I think is a shame. It’s hard to judge who FV will go for, youth or experience? Nobody seems to be sure if they have money or not but assuming they do have the readies to run the club properly I’d like them to really push the boat out for a top coach. So many clubs take the cheap option, including us when BSA left and it’s been downhill since with those following. I’m hoping we have finally hit the bottom and our next incumbent can do a Phil Neal and turn us around.

Assuming they don’t give it to David Lee or invite Brownie back as my second choice, there are more on that list in the BN that I don’t want than do. I definitely don’t want Clough, Powell, Bowyer or Grayson, I’m cool on some of the other coaches named like Andy Hughes, Mark Kennedy, Michael Beale or Michael Jolley because I don’t see them as any better than our own David Lee or Nicky Spooner.

Those of interest to me in order of preference would be Ian Evatt, Sol Campbell and Sam Rickets. All I know about Evatt is the good job he’s done at Barrow and that has everything in front of him. He would come here seeing it as a massive leg up but one I’m sure he’d approach with vigour and ambition. He also has a reputation for good attacking football which is something we need from whoever gets the job. Sol Campbell I think has been humble enough to take on small clubs to learn his trade bottom up, which I think many players of his standing wouldn’t do. I think he did an incredible job against the odds in keeping Macc up and was definitely improving Southend before the season ended, so a big tick from me. Finally Sam Rickets who even as player I always thought would make a good manager and so it seems from his time at Shrewsbury. Whether he would want to step down a division I don’t know but I suspect like most if not all candidates, they would consider the job here as much bigger long term than where they are.

So that’s my opinion but I would still take DL over all of them and in fact Brownie too. Maybe that duo would be best but as I said, I think it would have already been confirmed if it was a goer.

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