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Wigan in Administration

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Ten Bobsworth
Hip Priest
Banks of the Croal
Natasha Whittam
karlypants
sunlight
gloswhite
MartinBWFC
luckyPeterpiper
BoltonTillIDie
Sluffy
wessy
boltonbonce
Norpig
wanderlust
observer
Whitesince63
RangersDave
Boggersbelief
Bollotom2014
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151Wigan in Administration - Page 9 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:25 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

No club is going to merge with a local rival Peter, the fans simply won't accept it.

They would rather go bust and start again than become Bolton/Bury/Wigan Wanderers FC.

Fans won't follow from Bury or Wigan to watch at the Reebok and Bolton fans will be pissed off with the name change.

It might make financial sense but in practise it simply won't be acceptable to the people who pay to keep the club going.


Back to Wigan news - Administrators bill estimated to be £1.3m!!!

152Wigan in Administration - Page 9 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:07 pm

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

luckyPeterpiper wrote:It's my honest opinion that we will have to merge with someone sooner rather than later. A few years ago a sports writer suggested we should merge with Bury (obviously before their troubles and ours became so pronounced) and that perhaps Rochdale should merge with Oldham Athletic. I don't say it's the right solution or that it would have gone down well with the fans of the clubs involved but his wider point was that the 'smaller' North West clubs were not going to survive in the Premier League era as things stand. The massive disparity in income between the top flight and the rest means that most clubs simply cannot get there in a sustainable way. I don't know if mergers will happen but I am absolutely certain that if they don't then there will be more Burys, more Wigan Athletics, more Bolton Wanderers and that administration will no longer be a way out of trouble but simply a stepping stone on the way to extinction.

Only a radical and frankly completely unlikely shakeup of how money is distributed throughout the game could avoid that but I cannot see any way in which the current beneficiaries (eg Liverpool, Man City, Chelsea and the other Premier League 'big clubs') will ever agree to something that takes money out of their coffers and puts it elsewhere.
I share the same semi-dystopian - and occasionally logical - view at times, but it will be a long time coming and between now and then there's lots we can do to change where we are in that equation. 
Only a meteor strike of planet-ending proportions on my house is likely to dampen my enthusiasm for the coming season even though I've no idea how we'll perform against professionals yet.
But in a capitalist society, the redistribution of wealth inexorably moves towards marketable meritocracy so if our product is good enough we'll be OK. At least in the short term.

153Wigan in Administration - Page 9 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Sat Aug 15, 2020 8:59 am

wessy

wessy
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf

In some ways Peter that's like the tail wagging the dog, i agree that something needs to be done, but the solution you propose means that again it's the fans that suffer footy fans are married to one club, if you merge it stops being your club. 

How about the governing bodies see the bigger picture and grow a pair, by insisting, negotiating or even legislating that the money generated is split more evenly ? 

You will always have clubs that have a bigger fan base and feel entitled to a greater share and that's fine but make sure that the have nots have enough to survive. They survived despite the number of clubs in any given area for 100 years , Sky money is the problem not the clubs, fans are easily pleased they accept disparagy but need a club to support that reflects their background not some hybrid that appeases the big boys. 

Sky money already shafted the FA Cup, (pundits pretending it's still a top competition ) lets stop them doing it to the EFL pyramid of 72 distinct and original clubs

154Wigan in Administration - Page 9 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Sat Aug 15, 2020 10:04 am

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

It doesn't work that way though mate.

I know you were into athletics at one time so let me try to use that as an example to demonstrate,

Say your athletics club was run by a collection of people who specialised themselves in separate athletic disciplines say for instance a sprinter, a long distance runner, a shot putter and a javelin thrower.

You are part of the English Athletics Association and you are one of the best clubs around and seem to attract all the star athletes.

The TV company likes to show athletics and with your club providing all the stars you feel a bit hard done by that you only get the same share of what the TV company pays to broadcast the athletics as every other club in the country - even when you and your mates have put an awful lot of time and expense making the athletes the best they can whilst many other clubs are run by the old guard who don't want to change their ways from Victorian times and they all vote against you all the at the English Athletics Association AGM's.

Then someone comes up with an idea that you cut the middleman out and go directly to the TV company yourself!

This happens, the TV company wants to see YOUR star athletes and you run your own events.

You start up your own competition - 'Premier League Athletics' and breakaway from the EAA.

English AA still run their events but the TV company are not interested because it is rubbish without your stars so they only pay them buttons to show highlights nobody apart from the teams themself want to watch.

Your club starts to become very rich but also your stars want a share of it and a big one at that!

On top of that each of your disciplines - sprint, distance, shot and javelin turn into specialist clubs themselves, with their own facilities, staff, coaches, tracks, etc and get an equal amount of what the TV company pays you and an equal vote in things.

One thing though is that not all the four disciplines are as popular as each other and the TV company likes say sprints more than shot put, in other words they get 'ranked'.

One of the EAA clubs develops a very good pole vault team - and the TV company likes pole vaulting.

So you have a vote and vote out the shot put people in your club and invite the pole vault people to take their place - and a share in the big money!

The shot put people get allowed back into the EAA but now have massive overheads, so much so they have to slash their costs, let people go and generally go down the tube until they can balance their new existence to the trickle of money they now receive.

Covid strikes and all the smaller EAA clubs suffer - Bury EAA club goes bust and Wigan's look likely too.

Do you think your club should be worried though - you still get the big money from the TV company.

The EAA suggests you help them out - but by doing so it means you take a cut in your income - which you have budgeted and need to receive and spend on the athletes wages and the stadium, facilities, youth teams, etc, etc, for each of the four disciplines that have a vote - sprint, distance, javelin and pole vault.

You've all seen what's happened to shot when they no longer had the same money but had the the expenditure commitments until they had to drastically downsize.

Do you think the four disciplines would want to harm themselves to save clubs with frankly no relevance to them other than they 'play' the same sport at a much lesser standard?

Do you think the government should step in and legislate - it's nothing to do with them.

The EAA have no claims to your TV money, they have their own deal but it's a bit shit because they don't have any stars people want to watch.

It's simply market driven, supply and demand.

The market has too many suppliers and the demand is for premium goods.

Unless smaller clubs/suppliers/teams can find niche markets and sustain themselves then the bigger clubs/suppliers/teams aren't going to vote to financially harm themselves to help them.

They might chuck them a bone of sorts but the realism is that the PL will keep the lion share of the income that is paid to THEM - and not 'football' in general.

Hope this gives you a better understanding of why things are like they are.

155Wigan in Administration - Page 9 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Sat Aug 15, 2020 10:42 am

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Things may well be the way they are, but if something's broke it needs fixing and sometimes that calls for radical solutions. The question is will it still work for the EFL if clubs continue to go bust? Will it still work for the Premier League if there are no clubs to nick players from and to send prospects out on loan to? Will it still work for the FA if there are limited opportunities for young English players to feed the national team? Will it still work for the Government if community bonding around football clubs is dissipated? In essence how much is the EFL and non-league structure valued?

The way things are is that there's a cost/risk analysis to be done by the various stakeholders in this situation.
The Government could decide that it's worth half a billion a year to support smaller clubs financially out of e.g. the Communities fund. The FA could decide on a financial restructuring that protects smaller clubs. Fans could have a say in it. 
Bottom line is that we don't know how far it will go before some stakeholder or other decides to act.

156Wigan in Administration - Page 9 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:24 am

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

wanderlust wrote:Things may well be the way they are, but if something's broke it needs fixing and sometimes that calls for radical solutions. The question is will it still work for the EFL if clubs continue to go bust? Will it still work for the Premier League if there are no clubs to nick players from and to send prospects out on loan to? Will it still work for the FA if there are limited opportunities for young English players to feed the national team? Will it still work for the Government if community bonding around football clubs is dissipated? In essence how much is the EFL and non-league structure valued?

The way things are is that there's a cost/risk analysis to be done by the various stakeholders in this situation.
The Government could decide that it's worth half a billion a year to support smaller clubs financially out of e.g. the Communities fund. The FA could decide on a financial restructuring that protects smaller clubs. Fans could have a say in it. 
Bottom line is that we don't know how far it will go before some stakeholder or other decides to act.

We know enough!

The government won't spend money on something they don't even have a say in - the football bodies are the regulators, nor will they fund private business - they haven't bailed out the airlines for instance during Covid.

The country's got bigger urgent needs than bailing out clubs like Wigan, Bury, Charlton, Macclesfield and the like. If they can't financially sustain themselves, then that's their problem not the taxpayers.

The PL don't need the EFL - how many players jump from the EFL to the PL normally - very few.

The future for them is a European League and tv revenue, not tin pot clubs relying on match day income.

When somethings broke it doesn't mean that it needs fixing, it can also mean it's gone past its time and needs binning.

People will still play football, players will be scouted, loans will still be made but it doesn't mean that is limited to the EFL, it goes on internationally already, I think I'm right in saying that the majority of the players in the PL squads are non British - I am, see link below.

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/10725849/premier-league-has-highest-percentage-of-foreign-players-8211-uefa-report#:~:text=The%20club%20licencing%20benchmarking%20report,division%20(57.1%20per%20cent).

The creation of the PL broke the mould of English football and in a sense the industry is still coming to terms with that change.

There is no going back though, EFL clubs will have to adapt to the consequences of what has happened or go under - simple as that.

157Wigan in Administration - Page 9 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:49 am

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

We don't know enough yet. What you describe is the situation as it currently appears and perhaps that's just not bad enough yet to act as a catalyst for change...but that doesn't rule out the possibility of it getting far worse down the line.

158Wigan in Administration - Page 9 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:35 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

wanderlust wrote:We don't know enough yet. What you describe is the situation as it currently appears and perhaps that's just not bad enough yet to act as a catalyst for change...but that doesn't rule out the possibility of it getting far worse down the line.

It's definitely going to get far worse - no doubt about that - lower league clubs rely ST's and gate receipts and if they aren't getting those because they have to play behind closed doors or the season is suspended part way through again - then they simply can't carry on accruing debt and not having the means to pay it off.

PL has proved it can survive on broadcasting revenue alone and exist within a player bubble (at least for a given period). Similarly to Test Matches and World Snooker - this seems the way forward at least in the short term.

The government too action to close the door on France at short notice when their rate for the virus went over 20 cases per 100,000 population - fwiw currently 30 of England's 315 councils are already over that total and the current national seven day average is 11.9 and we thus might well be moving back in a lockdown again and consequently even a return to limited spectators at sports matches could be in threat again very shortly - how can you budget to run a business when you can't 'sell' your product to your customers in the case of teams like ours/the rest of the third and fourth tier teams?

I don't follow non league but I guess casualties will be mounting there soon too!

The current industry standard practise of having owners willing to fund company's that are insolvent in terms of trading themselves was unsustainable any way, Covid has simply sped that up. Clubs that can't adapt (like Wigan) will go bust, nobody will be bending over backwards to prop them up - why should they?

That's the reality of what will/is going to happen.



159Wigan in Administration - Page 9 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:03 pm

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Sluffy, how about you have a day off from posting negativity.

Tell us about a special day in your life following BWFC, your favourite pair of slippers or your favourite meal. Anything with a positive vibe.

160Wigan in Administration - Page 9 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:08 pm

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Natasha Whittam wrote:Sluffy, how about you have a day off from posting negativity.

Tell us about a special day in your life, your favourite pair of slippers or your favourite meal. Anything with a positive vibe.
Outrageous. I'm not having Sluffy sniffing around the leisure footwear scene. It's a dangerous world, and he'll likely get hurt. Don't cross me.

161Wigan in Administration - Page 9 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:41 pm

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

boltonbonce wrote:
Outrageous. I'm not having Sluffy sniffing around the leisure footwear scene. 
Sniffing leisure footwear. :facepalm:

162Wigan in Administration - Page 9 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:59 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

Natasha Whittam wrote:Sluffy, how about you have a day off from posting negativity.

Tell us about a special day in your life following BWFC, your favourite pair of slippers or your favourite meal. Anything with a positive vibe.

Real life is about facing up to reality and not running away from it by living in some 'pretend' world.

Shit happens you/we/me has to deal with it when it does.

If you class preparing for the inevitable is being negative, then I must be a negative person then as I just see it as being aware of what is coming my way.

The most special day in my life was the day my child was born.

I guess most parents would say the same about the birth of their children.

163Wigan in Administration - Page 9 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:23 pm

Cajunboy

Cajunboy
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf

wessy wrote:Not sure if this is right but i recall that when David Sharpe (DW Grandson) was appointed chairman Wigan fans had a laugh because all he had ever run was a Chippy ? and i think he made a balls of that but grandads money bailed him out. So guessing the chippy was probably bought by DW so part of the assets when he sold it on.

If those figures above are correct then they are toast chippy or not.

Yes it just seen it was called Sharpy's Chippy near the DW  now closed down
Thanks for that, it looks as though Wigan are truly battered now!

164Wigan in Administration - Page 9 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:57 pm

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

wanderlust wrote:
Sniffing leisure footwear. :facepalm:
There are people like that. Live and let live. Very Happy

165Wigan in Administration - Page 9 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Sat Aug 15, 2020 8:21 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

Clutching at straws now.





166Wigan in Administration - Page 9 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Sun Aug 16, 2020 10:00 am

Whitesince63


Andy Walker
Andy Walker

I think Sluffys right and I think everybody must accept that the league as we know it must change radically to survive. I think a PL2 is nailed on for the Championship but I’m not as pessimistic on L1 and L2 failing. Of course they have to change and I suppose the salary caps are a start towards that but I don’t think there’s any way they will just collapse, even if some individual clubs do. They will just have to cut their cloth accordingly and I still see owners who will want to fund them. I think we also have to remember that the total number of supporters of non PL clubs is much bigger than those in the top flight and with clubs being such an integral part of so many towns and city’s communities, I don’t believe that government can just ignore their importance and allow their demise. 

I also believe there could yet be a change at the top. The leading PL clubs have as little concern for the smaller PL clubs and Championship clubs as they do those in L1 and L2. They would be just as happy to cast the Watford’s, Bournemouth’s and Burnley’s aside as Bolton’s and Barnsley’s, so a Euro League must still be a possibility. In many ways that would be the best scenario because just as Sluffy says, there is no going back, just finding the best way to go forward. As for Wanderers, whatever happens I believe we will survive because we have a loyal and large enough support, a ground that can really be used for so many revenue generating uses and now genuine and positive owners who have already shown us the commitment that’s been missing. We now just need to get back to the Championship as soon as possible to accommodate whatever happens in the future.

167Wigan in Administration - Page 9 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:06 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

The tribunals findings have now been published and if I say so myself, the reason for rejecting the appeal was exactly as I though.

Sluffy wrote:To my mind the owner putting the club into Administration is not Force Majeure, it's a deliberate action which is definitely in control of a key involved party -  but if it's got as far as the courts there must be something in their case to fight for.

"The written reasons were compiled by an independent arbitration panel which heard Wigan’s appeal, brought by the club against the points sanction on the grounds of force majeure. Its verdict is dismissive, declaring: “The club cannot rely on force majeure because, far from acting with due diligence to avoid the happening of that event, at least one of the officials of the club – that is, Mr Kay – actively brought it about.”

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/aug/16/wigans-former-owner-kay-asked-about-administration-before-his-takeover#:~:text=Wigan%27s%20former%20owner%20Kay%20asked%20about%20administration%20before%20his%20takeover,-Au%20Yeung%20Wai&text=The%20former%20owner%20of%20Wigan,controversial%20takeover%2C%20key%20documents%20reveal.

Bleeding obviously really, I don't know why the Administrators even thought they had a chance???

I guess when it's not your money you don't mind a gamble - you might get lucky I suppose?

168Wigan in Administration - Page 9 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:46 pm

Banks of the Croal

Banks of the Croal
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington

Don't really know/ understand the finer points and whether they'll survive or not but some of the things i've read elsewhere what some Wigan fans are supposed to have done up at our Stadium, makes it hard for me to feel sorry for them, remember being with another Bolton fan watching them play City in the cup final and we  were both happy when they won, when i think about ourselves not really sure where our money is going to come from to keep us going, the way things are, uncertainty is the word that keeps going round in my head ?

169Wigan in Administration - Page 9 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Sun Aug 16, 2020 10:25 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

Let me assure you for this season at least that Bolton should be fine.

Famous last words I know...!

In simple terms Sharron has put up £20m of her own money to run the club (we will be trading at a loss and have done so since she took over in fact we've probably been running at a loss before Eddie took over!) and Mike James has left £5m of his company's money in the business and in a way 'owns' the hotel.

We also have an investment fund where we can 'borrow' up to another £20m but on paper that needs paying back - if we do borrow - the following season - think of it like a 'bank' lending us money - but we probably pay higher interest on it if we do.

Obviously the pandemic wasn't planned for but for now we seem solid enough - sit back and enjoy the season, we are going to walk this and I think we might well have a serious punt at getting back in the Championship the following season but let's not get ahead of ourselves just yet.

Yes some/many Wigan fans behaved disrespectfully to us when things were at the darkest and they've lost a lot of compassion from many Wanderers fans now finding themselves in the same plight as we had.

Wigan seemed doomed to me though.

In simple terms they have no one in the background helping them out like we had with Eddie Davies Trust and Mike James £5m.

They have to find a buyer PDQ and there doesn't seem anyone with deep enough pockets to do that.

What I think seems to be happening, or at least what they hope might - would be for their Supporters club (think BWSA rather than BWST equivalents) to take on the football club and that somebody (probably someone like Wigan Rugby/Wigan Council) buy the stadium and rent it to them.

Some big hurdles first though.

Football Creditors have to be paid before anything can happen and so Admin needs to keep on selling players to do that.

August wages need to be paid.

Even more player sales needed.

THEN IF the stadium, training ground and chippy (don't forget the chippy!) can be sold, this money can be used to pay off so much in the £ to the unsecured creditors.

This MIGHT be enough to let everything go through BUT if the 'so much' in the £ is LESS than 25p, then Wigan takes another 15 points penalty.

Then the supporters club HAVE to be able to show proof that they have sufficient funds to run the club for the next two years during which time they have no assets (players and stadium/training grounds/chippy sold) and no match day income when games are played behind closed doors.

To be honest it is a huge ask and frankly it seems no more than wishful thinking to me.

Can't see it happening for them myself but as they say, where's there's life, there's hope.

170Wigan in Administration - Page 9 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:31 am

Banks of the Croal

Banks of the Croal
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington

Thanks for that Sluffy, feel a bit more reassured far as we are concerned.

Looks grim for Wigan.

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