Would you be willing to pay more NI or tax to fund the NHS and social care?

I don't believe any hype (or social media) unlike you and I'm well aware of how poor this current administration is.

Of course Johnson takes decisions, Christ almighty how many u-turns has this government made in its last two years - they can't do u-turns if they've not made both a decision first THEN another decision to change it - can they???

I never claimed he made good decisions but you can't be in charge if you can't take decisions, even wrong ones.

He clearly decided to go for the vaccine route and order millions before they even were approved - very risky taking a chance not knowing the outcome - but it turned out to be the right one - he put Kate Bingham in charge of the vaccine acquisition and roll out - Maugham screamed cronyism and corruption over the appointment and started to take the government to court over this - I believe you were one of those banging on about it at the time as well - but it proved to be the right decision - and Maugham has since very, very quietly dropped his claims over her (well fancy that!).

It was the right thing to do to get PPE fast when the pandemic broke out - that was the correct decision rather than not have any - which at times we barely had.

Of course some of the decisions were bad ones or caused future problems like faulty PPE stock - but better a load of good stock and a chunk faulty, than no PPE at all.

Not remember the saying about 'he who hesitates is lost'?

He's just made a decision about Social Care and increased NI - against the view of his party apparently.  It might turn out to be a disastrous decision in time - but my point again is that he's taken a decision rather than the easy option of doing nothing.

I'm certainly not a Boris fan but given a choice between him and Starmer (or is it Raynor, or Burnham or Long-Bailey...) he's going to have a walkover at the next election isn't he?

The only chance Labour have is to take the initiative now, take the lead in visionary polices that the people will buy into and a leader who they will get behind.

They've had two years of a pretty poor Tory Government with Boris in charge and what have they managed to achieve in that time?  

They've gone backwards if anything!!!

Even Del Trotter has a mantra of 'he who dares'!

If Labour want to wait until they hone the perfect policies then they will look up after they've finally done so and realise that it was way too late and they'd already missed the boat which had sailed off on a vision and a prayer already.

Personally I think they are already dead in the water in terms of the next General Election, they have to get their act together and let people know their vision now if they want to prove me wrong (so that the electorate can start to buy into and believe in their visions).

They are simply too divided amongst themselves to do that other than to come up with some unbelievable tripe such as Corbyn did in his manifesto.

That's the reality and nothing to do with any political ideology you may think I have.

Shocking and sadly typical!:-

https://news.sky.com/story/exclusive-ministers-bowed-to-pressure-to-drop-key-climate-commitments-for-uk-trade-deal-with-australia-12401988

Well its happening now and yet again the young and us workers will be funding this while the wealthy won't. 

As i said when i started this thread i'm prepared to pay extra but it does feel a little unfair doing it by NI as the young and lower paid will pay proportionally more than high earners.

Norpig wrote:Well its happening now and yet again the young and us workers will be funding this while the wealthy won't. 

As i said when i started this thread i'm prepared to pay extra but it does feel a little unfair doing it by NI as the young and lower paid will pay proportionally more than high earners.

It annoys me that we left the EU to allegedly support the NHS, were promised that NI et al wouldn't go up and now it has.
Lies built on lies.

But it won't change the minds of leave voters and Tory voters as that would be tantamount to admitting they were conned and nobody likes to look like a mug.

wanderlust wrote:

Norpig wrote:Well its happening now and yet again the young and us workers will be funding this while the wealthy won't. 

As i said when i started this thread i'm prepared to pay extra but it does feel a little unfair doing it by NI as the young and lower paid will pay proportionally more than high earners.

It annoys me that we left the EU to allegedly support the NHS, were promised that NI et al wouldn't go up and now it has.
Lies built on lies.

But it won't change the minds of leave voters and Tory voters as that would be tantamount to admitting they were conned and nobody likes to look like a mug.

Well you certainly don't!!!

https://forum.boltonnuts.co.uk/t19412p540-brexit-negotiations#396062

Sluffy wrote:

Well you certainly don't!!!

https://forum.boltonnuts.co.uk/t19412p540-brexit-negotiations#396062

How many times have you quoted a different poster on a different forum and claimed it was me whenever you can't think of anything sensible to contribute?
I reckon it must be approaching 100.
And TBF I've never quoted another poster on a different forum and claimed it was you admitting to...well use your imagination you dirty old man

wanderlust wrote:

Sluffy wrote:

Well you certainly don't!!!

https://forum.boltonnuts.co.uk/t19412p540-brexit-negotiations#396062

How many times have you quoted a different poster on a different forum and claimed it was me whenever you can't think of anything sensible to contribute?
I reckon it must be approaching 100.
And TBF I've never quoted another poster on a different forum and claimed it was you admitting to...well use your imagination you dirty old man

As you know full well, I've only ever stated that just the one account on ww in the name of Hoppy510 to be you - because as we both know (and Norpig too don't forget) it is you.

I don't give a fig either way if you voted for Brexit or not - but YOU stated YOU HAD because you felt misled and lied too.

Fine, fair enough, if you, at your age, are dumb enough to believe what politicians claim at times of an election to get your vote, then that's your naivety and stupidity but what really makes my jaw drop is that you bleat and bitch that you were lied to and misled, yet think absolutely nothing of lying and misleading people on here yourself by claiming you didn't vote for Brexit and Hoppy 510 isn't you!!!

So it's wrong for others to lie and cheat you but perfectly fine for you to lie and cheat to others!!!

AND we are simply a bunch of strangers on an internet site!!!

God knows what your behaviour and morals are in real life.

Fortunately I will never have to find out but I feel sorry for those who do have to put up with you although I suspect most people have as little to do with you as they can.

 

Anyhow the bill has been passed so it's a 1.25% tax rise story here.

Don’t know why you’re unsure of who is in charge of the Labour Party Sluffy, pretty clear from the recent expulsions that the ‘centrists’ are in full control. It’s frustrating really as I think there was something to build on from Corbyn and the policies, but again we end up with a civil war splitting the party instead of really challenging the Tories.

This tax on working people should be a slam dunk - and while Labour have shown some progress in the latest polls the reluctance to give any firm policy baffles me.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Don’t know why you’re unsure of who is in charge of the Labour Party Sluffy, pretty clear from the recent expulsions that the ‘centrists’ are in full control. It’s frustrating really as I think there was something to build on from Corbyn and the policies, but again we end up with a civil war splitting the party instead of really challenging the Tories.

This tax on working people should be a slam dunk - and while Labour have shown some progress in the latest polls the reluctance to give any firm policy baffles me.

Starmer is going to present his vision at the conference.

Centrist's are notionally in charge now but their weakness shows in not being to quell Rayner as they clearly intended to.

Unite (the party's big financial backer) clearly are pro 'Corbyn' policies - which someone with half a brain from there must realise are not electable in the eyes of the nations voters.

As for the NI tax, look at it the other way around.

How many people have more than £86,000 capital - which is the proposed cap for social care fees - everyone who has paid for their houses at least (and don't forget those who expect to have an inheritance from their parents if and when they go into care will have a strong interest in this too).

The NI increase on the lowest wage earners is £130pa, even the next band up it is only £255pa.

Of course it hurts them financially but I tend to think less than £3 pw is the evil that will bring down society, do you, whilst not doing something about social care costs and people losing their savings, whilst those who never bothered saving or lived off the state get their social care for free, is unfair and unequitable and hits Conservative voters the hardest - and remember this government has been elected by Conservative voters.

Maybe/possibly/probably this is not the proper answer to social care costs but it is a start - and let's not forget both previous Tory AND Labour governments have prevaricated doing anything about this for years now.

Think of it if you like in parallel with the hoo-ha over obtaining PPE.  Was that done in the best way, probably not, but it needed doing and time was of the essence. If they waited for the perfect way of doing it, it never would have been done, the PPE would have long since have run out everywhere.  If nothing was done over social care finance the NHS backlog would simply grow bigger and bigger and still no cap would be brought in for care costs - with non even in sight for the future.

The issue to me is to get something going and improve it as you go along - Labour clearly had no plans for anything otherwise they would have been shouting them out from the rooftops from day one, wouldn't they?

I've banged on a bit about how Labour should project itself as a government in waiting if it has any chance to ever get back into government.  Surely the long standing issue of social care financing would easily have been a policy for them to have worked on one would have thought (well I would anyway).

It seems to me Labour is riven in two with ideological thinking and thus unable to all get behind the same policies - the Unions (and the funding) are Corbynite idealists, the centralists are more pragmatic but have no muscle and all the while you have Starmer as a lame duck leader stalked by Burnham and no doubt Rayner.

It's all a bloody mess for them and easy to see why the Tory government with all its many failings will win the next general election and at this rate the one after it as well.

You present the policy as if it’s a binary choice between this or doing nothing. Raising tax is the right thing to do, should have been done years ago but the problem is where the rises has been targeted.

Calling Corbyn’s politics idealist is too broadbrush in this instance considering he presented a serious and viable solution to social care in 2019. Starmer is yet to announce any such thing, so I don’t see that as pragmatic in any way.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:You present the policy as if it’s a binary choice between this or doing nothing. Raising tax is the right thing to do, should have been done years ago but the problem is where the rises has been targeted.

Calling Corbyn’s politics too broadbrush in this instance considering he had a serious and viable solution to social care in 2019 - Starmer is yet to announce any such thing, so I don’t see that as pragmatic in anyway.

Ever heard the acronym K.I.S.S?

It stands for Keep It Simple, Stupid.

Now I'm not saying you are stupid at all but sometimes you do need to strip everything away to get to the point of what really matters.

Of course there are many shades of grey in life but if you simply compare the black to the white you sometime begin to see the wood from the trees.

Anywhere the taxation had fallen to pay for social care, someone, somewhere would tell us - prove to us no doubt - that it would be unfair and inequitable.

If you look at it that some taxation has to happen - and it seems you do - then make a start, put one up and go from there.

The alternative - which as been happening for year is no one will put up any tax and make the start to bring about change as needed.

Which is the lesser of the two evils?

If Labour/Starmer believed Corbyn's policy was a good one - and it was already there in existence then why didn't he simply wheel it out again?

I might be remembering things incorrectly but didn't the plan get ridiculed at the time because of how it was proposed to be funded was fatally flawed or something?

Even if it was then Labour have had two years to get their act together over it and improve the policy so everyone could get behind it - clearly they haven't which seems to tell me something, namely not all of Labour is behind it enough to push it forward as a rebuttal to Boris' NI increase.

As for Starmer's brave new world - no doubt we will find out more about it very soo!

https://www.cityam.com/sir-keir-starmer-to-publish-14000-word-mission-statement-in-leadership-reset/

Sorry, what are you suggesting I need to be ‘strip back’ and keep simple? 

Again your question on the lesser of two evils presents a binary choice of this policy or do nothing. It’s not the case, there are alternative ways to raise tax that doesn’t hit so many working people. Labour wanted to raise tax for the top 5% of earners for example - wonder why that’s not popular with the Tories?

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Sorry, what are you suggesting I need to be ‘strip back’ and keep simple? 

Again your question on the lesser of two evils presents a binary choice of this policy or do nothing. It’s not the case, there are alternative ways to raise tax that doesn’t hit so many working people. Labour wanted to raise tax for the top 5% of earners for example - wonder why that’s not popular with the Tories?

He who hesitates is lost.

A load of shit (from one quarter in particular - lets be honest) has been thrown at the government over PPE procurement, seems a load is intended to be thrown at them over this now.

Short of no one - specifically Labour - having a plan to speak off, then I guess it really is a binary choice - do something as the Johnson has done, or do nothing - and things just get worse.

And if you think that's just me talking, here is what a former Labour Cabinet Minister has been saying about the current Labour Party and their policies and strategies -

Labour’s official reaction to the NHS levy is worryingly amateur. In criticising the Tories for putting up taxes for the NHS, are we saying we wouldn’t? If we would, & we don’t like this levy, which other taxes would we put up? None has been named

The voters notice these things

— Andrew Adonis (@Andrew_Adonis) September 8, 2021

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Labour wanted to raise tax for the top 5% of earners for example - wonder why that’s not popular with the Tories?

Keir says: “My plan is to ensure that those with the broadest shoulders pay their fair share”.

But where is the plan? There isn’t one

— Andrew Adonis (@Andrew_Adonis) September 8, 2021

The problem with wealth taxes is they sound great until you try to define them, then people realise the wealth involved is theirs because they eg own a house which has grown in value, though they aren’t wealthy in disposable income

Not sure Keir knows what he’s getting into here

— Andrew Adonis (@Andrew_Adonis) September 9, 2021

And the Chief Political Editor of the Independent can see it, so it makes it more perplexing to me how potential Labour leaders - and rank and file members like you can't see the obvious outcome of wealth and inheritance taxes - it isn't just the super rich who will be paying them it will be normal people like me and your parents and even you if you've bought a house.

Who that have saved up all their life's and bought their house is going to vote Labour to be taxed on it whilst those who lived off the state won't have to pay a penny?

Robin Hood might have robbed the rich to give to the poor but he certainly would never get elected if he was standing today when most people either own their house or they are waiting for their granny to die for their inheritance!

Another warning for Labour from @Andrew_Adonis’s Prospect newsletter pic.twitter.com/wWDGZ9x9qa

— John Rentoul (@JohnRentoul) September 8, 2021

Starmer has missed more open goals than these guys...

Not a surprise to see Adonis and Rentoul aren't keen on a left wing tax policy, or that Adonis has avoided dealing with the specifics, a wealth tax can take many forms is he claiming that none of these could work, if he is (or you if you're agreeing with him) - why, and which ones?

For me, I'd happily pay more in tax (and i will be under this policy) but I'm lucky and can afford it, my parents can too and recognise how fortunate the boomer generation were - but they won't pay a penny under this.

Ask yourself why Tory policy tends to go after young, working people rather than the retired or wealthy?

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Not a surprise to see Adonis and Rentoul aren't keen on a left wing tax policy, or that Adonis has avoided dealing with the specifics, a wealth tax can take many forms is he claiming that none of these could work, if he is (or you if you're agreeing with him) - why, and which ones?

For me, I'd happily pay more in tax (and i will be under this policy) but I'm lucky and can afford it, my parents can too and recognise how fortunate the boomer generation were - but they won't pay a penny under this.

Ask yourself why Tory policy tends to go after young, working people rather than the retired or wealthy?

Ask yourself why Labour tends to go after the retired and wealthy (those who have worked and saved and invested in their homes and paid their taxes and taken little out of the pot) rather than the young idealist and those who rely on the state?

Could it be that neither party wants to piss on its core supporters who vote for them?

I think it might be just that...

Yes that’s exactly it, which is what I’m criticising them for. So what’s your point?

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Yes that’s exactly it, which is what I’m criticising them for. So what’s your point?

???

The Tory Government has come up with a plan for social care funding.

It might not be the best but it is the ONLY ONE anyone has got.

Did you happen to listen to Rayner on the radio about this, well feel free to listen to her yourself -

Rayner Fails Eight Times to Detail Labour’s Alternative Social Care Funding Plans https://t.co/WhcIyT0jrf pic.twitter.com/bC5o65VdmD

— Guido Fawkes (@GuidoFawkes) September 13, 2021

And yes I know the tweet is from Fawkes. I tried to find the interview direct from the Today programme but failed, otherwise I would have put that up instead.

It what she says (or rather doesn't) when interviewed is what matters not who tweeted it on Twitter.

Labour hasn't got an alternative funding plan otherwise they'd be telling everyone about it.

It's as simple as that.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:

Completely agree, pathetic from Labour again. Kendall outright refused to state their alternative on Sky the other day.

Barely surprising that the Tories have yet again targeted working people and seemingly got away with it, the tax increase is right, who’s been targeted is completely regressive.

I said this to you days ago - you acknowledged and agreed with it so must have read it. Why are you now repeating it back to me? Do you have a point to make or not?