When should freedom of choice be curtailed?

I see that European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen has said she thinks it's time for EU member states to consider mandatory vaccinations.

I can't say I've developed a high opinion of her as up to now she made such a fuss over AstraZeneca that she initially pressed the button on Article 16 of the Northern Ireland Protocol and almost immediately had to climb down, then tried to take court action against the company - and lost badly!

Anyway, today she's talking about mandatory vaccinations for those in the EU.

Personally I can't see it being acceptable myself, and I speak as one fully jabbed and having had the booster.

I can understand the sentiment behind the call for mandatory vaccination but as I've said many times in the past, in the western world, democracy and the rule of law is by the consent of the people and I simply don't believe such mandatory vaccination would be acceptable by a substantial amount of people.

Christ people can't be arsed to wear a mask in a shop, stay isolated when they have Covid or even keep in their bubbles when they were required to, so I can't see them getting a jab just because the law may require them too!

Is there anyone on here who hasn't had their jabs, if so I'd be interested to know what your thinking behind it is?

Fwiw, if my daughter was of secondary school age or younger, I'd seriously question whether I would put pressure on her to have the jab as from what I've read the risk between having one and not is only marginal at such an age for them - although she would be a risk to the old and vulnerable (and others un-jabbed) of passing on Covid if she caught it.

As it is she is no longer a child and is double vaccinated.

So where is the line between being ordered to do something by the state and upholding your right to have freedom of choice?

My lad is at Secondary School and was quite happy to have a jab, we did discuss it with him first and he wanted to have it.

If a disease like Covid mutated and ended up having far worse symptoms and more chance of people dying then mandatory vaccination should be brought in. Until that point i don't think you can force people to have a jab but it doesn't stop me thinking they are idiots for not having one.

If you do not have the jab then you have to live with whatever restrictions may be placed on you.

I work in the NHS and have been triple jabbed and had a flu vaccine but i still wear a mask (even before the new restrictions came in) on public transport and when shopping but plenty still don't and it does annoy me.

For me, under no circumstances should people be legally forced to take a vaccine. The Covid pandemic has already led to an increase in restrictions in our way of life and I can see it getting worse as people become more accepting of it. Fortunately, however disturbing it looks, many Europeans are not happy to accept them and are protesting against them. As far as the UK is concerned, I continue to contest the figures relating to Covid illness and death because they are still inflated by those suffering and dying from other associated morbidities. The fact that the quoted average age of death is over 85 years just increases the question over the numbers.

We’ve become so transfixed with Covid, that other ailments such as cancer, heart disease and mental health are completely overlooked. Sadly there are too many organisations and individuals using the Covid situation to their own ends and it has to stop if our economy and way of life is to be protected. Is it just a coincidence that the Omicron mutation has derived from Africa, a continent with 93% of people unvaccinated yet suffering less from Covid than other geographies? I’ve never been a conspiracy theorist but there are just so many parts of this pandemic that don’t add up to me that I’m beginning to think that the danger of this virus is being greatly overplayed.

Norpig wrote:My lad is at Secondary School and was quite happy to have a jab, we did discuss it with him first and he wanted to have it.

If a disease like Covid mutated and ended up having far worse symptoms and more chance of people dying then mandatory vaccination should be brought in. Until that point i don't think you can force people to have a jab but it doesn't stop me thinking they are idiots for not having one.

If you do not have the jab then you have to live with whatever restrictions may be placed on you.

I work in the NHS and have been triple jabbed and had a flu vaccine but i still wear a mask (even before the new restrictions came in) on public transport and when shopping but plenty still don't and it does annoy me.

Thanks for the reply Norpig, I had hoped such a big topic as state v individual freedoms would have brought in more comments.

The problem with Covid is that we can't beat it until we ALL beat it, meaning that even if we, the EU, the USA, etc, all get jabbed, as long as the rest of the world doesn't, then Covid will mutate and keep coming back to threaten us like this Omicron variant is doing right now.

How can the state mandate that it's people get jabbed knowing that a big chunk of the world isn't, nor it seems intent on doing so - South Africa where two of the five major variants have originated from so far, is delaying taking stocks of the vaccine because there is such a low take up of the jab from its people!

I can see the point of both sides in this argument and of course on a local level it is better for all if we do have the jab as it seems to give us some protection for now from these new variants but there's always going to be some who value their personal rights and freedoms above the common good for all of us.

I personally think there are far too many people who are selfish and self-centred in their behaviour who would refuse to take a jab, wear a mask, or whatever else are 'rules' may be mandated by the state, for it to be achieved - where do you lock up ten of thousands of people who refuse to do so for example?

In retrospect and to be fair to the government, perhaps we can see now why they consistently advised us to do such things during the first waves of Covid rather than cracked down hard on us as some had wanted the state to do - because they knew it simply could be enforced if they had.

I think we have to accept that we have to live with Covid from now on and all we can do is our bit to keep ourselves and our love ones safe.  

Maybe that means to some people who believe the fake news, by not taking the jab.

It is the world we live in these days and fwiw, I rather it be like that than how it seems to be in places like China.

As regards compulsory Covid jabs, the point at which freedom of choice is terminated would be when there is conclusive evidence that unjabbed people are responsible for maintaining the proliferation of the virus.

At that point they should rightly lose what they see as their right to kill other people.

I thought this was interesting - I think the issue will not go away as long as new variations of Covid such as Omnicom continue to cause huge waves of Covid spread around the world and as places like Africa have hardly been jabbed at all, then mutations and new waves are always likely to keep occurring.

12:35
Macron vows to 'piss off' France's unvaccinated

President Macron has been accused of using vulgar language – after he used a slang term to say he wants to make life difficult for those who haven't taken up the vaccine.

"I really want to piss them off, and we'll carry on doing this - to the end," he told Le Parisien newspaper.

French MPs have been debating a law that will bar the unjabbed from much of public life.

But a session in the National Assembly was brought to a standstill for a second night running, as Macron's political opponents complained about the president's language.

In his interview with Le Parisien, Macron used the vulgar term emmerder to say how he wanted to stir up the unvaccinated.

He said he would not "vaccinate by force" but hoped to encourage people to take up the jab by "limiting as much as possible their access to activities in social life".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-59877796