The Post Office Scandal

Sluffy

Sluffy

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Wow!!!

I can't say I've ever been too interested in all this hoo-ha over this Post Office thingamajig but its been on the news a lot over the last few days and the ITV 'play' has just won some award or something, so I thought I would have a nosey into what all the fuss was about.

I was going to watch the ITV reconstruction but luckily found the BBC Panorama documentary instead which interviewed the actual people involved, including the forensic auditors and MP's as well as the sub-postmasters themselves.

The bottom line was that the Post Office knowingly threw these people under the bus, knowing they were innocent, to protect the company because they knew that the computer system the sub postmasters used was at fault, that people could access it unknown to the sub postmasters themselves who thought they had sole access to it.

Basically innocent people had their life's ruined - at least one committed suicide because of it - cover ups at the highest levels were made at the Post Office and (although it is down played quite a bit) the government must have been aware of the later cover ups and therefore must have been to some degree complicit in them.

Jaw dropping stuff.

I highly recommend you to spend an hour of your time watching the Panorama programme even if this subject doesn't interest you as such because it is a true life story as to how people don't 'do the right thing' when they need to and how innocent life's are ruined because of it.

And if that doesn't rock your boat - it is simply a very, very good story to watch!

I'd also like to give a shout out to the Parliamentary Committee that ultimately brought the truth out by holding an inquiry into what had happened.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0016t20/panorama-the-post-office-scandal

Last edited by Sluffy on Mon 8 Jan - 15:25; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)

Norpig

Norpig

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The ITV series was very good and has brought this back into the public eye. It was shocking what these poor people have had to put up with all these years. Some committed suicide due to the shame of being convicted.

Last edited by Norpig on Mon 8 Jan - 15:59; edited 1 time in total

karlypants

karlypants

Nat Lofthouse

Posts : 38249
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And the innocent people involved still haven’t really been compensated nor the guilty people banged up after all this time!!!

I’m sure I watched an itv drama on this years ago!

Whitesince63

Whitesince63

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Posts : 2094
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Sluffy wrote:Wow!!!

I can't say I've ever been too interested in all this hoo-ha over this Post Office thingamajig but its been on the news a lot over the last few days and the ITV 'play' has just won some award or something, so I thought I would have a nosey into what all the fuss was about.

I was going to watch the ITV reconstruction but luckily found the BBC Panorama documentary instead which interviewed the actual people involved, including the forensic auditors and MP's as well as the sub-postmasters themselves.

The bottom line was that the Post Office knowingly threw these people under the bus, knowing they were innocent, to protect the company because they knew that the computer system the sub postmasters used was at fault, that people could access it unknown to the sub postmasters themselves who thought they had sole access to it.

Basically innocent people had their life's ruined - at least one committed suicide because of it - cover ups at the highest levels were made at the Post Office and (although it is down played quite a bit) the government must have been aware of the later cover ups and therefore must have been to some degree complicit in them.

Jaw dropping stuff.

I highly recommend you to spend an hour of your time watching the Panorama programme even if this subject doesn't interest you as such because it is a true life story as to how people don't 'do the right think' when they need to and how innocent life's are ruined because of it.

And if that doesn't rock your boat - it is simply a very, very good story to watch!

I'd also like to give a shout out to the Parliamentary Committee that ultimately brought the truth out by holding an inquiry into what had happened.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0016t20/panorama-the-post-office-scandal

I quite agree Sluffy, watch both would be my advice. I think the recent play is likely to attract a bigger audience and is why it has now attracted such prominence. How this has been allowed to drag on for twenty years is a national disgrace and as overdue as it is the main transgressors must now be brought to account. This includes Ed Davy who was the minister in charge and on 5 occasions refused meetings with the postmasters group and obviously Paula Vennells herself who should not only lose her CBE (what did she get it for anyway?) but face criminal charges and loss of pension entitlements.

As for the postmasters themselves, they should all have their convictions immediately quashed prior to a full and suitable settlement for what they’ve been through. It’s not just the PO and government officials who should suffer punishment but also Fujitsu for not accepting their programme was faulty and directly accessed and adjusted accounts without the postmasters knowledge or permission plus a complete denial that it was taking place. Sadly, even compensation won’t undo the damage done to lives and reputations but it will at least allow those involved and their families to enjoy what time they have left. Finally, the CBE removed from Vennells should be awarded to Alan Bates without whom none of this would probably have been uncovered.

Sluffy

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Whitesince63 wrote:I quite agree Sluffy, watch both would be my advice.

I'm not sure as to the timings of these things but it did appear that the Panorama programme did reveal documents to the actual sub postmasters that they hadn't known about before as to the cover up by the Post Office management - maybe the 'play' was filmed prior to these disclosures - if so I think it will add to what you've already seen in the 'play'.

(I don't mean to be disparaging by referring to it as a 'play' but I'm not sure what else to call it when compared to the Panorama programme that interviewed the actual people directly).

I don't know enough about the background but it seems to me from the bit I know from the past (the 'desire' to privatise the Royal Mail/Post Office) and the Panorama interviews, that what probably happened was something like this...

Government want to flog off Post Office but first must put it into a saleable assets - eg introduce the all singing and dancing IT system.

This done they move towards selling it off BUT doubts about the systems reliability begin to blight a sale, so must be dealt with - so the introduction of independent forensic auditors 'Second Sight', in order to give it a clean bill of health.

Second Sight however finds major, major problems.

Post Office management - Paula Venells - panics, shuts down Second Sight - and covers up - to save her job and the intended sale.

Shit hits the fan.

Davy won't go near it (states now he was lied to and misled)...

We reported earlier that Lib Dem leader Sir Ed Davey is under fire over his handling of the Post Office scandal - he was postal affairs minister from 2010-12 in the coalition government.

He's since been out speaking to reporters. "I wish I’d know then what we all know now," he says, repeating claims that the Post Office lied "on an industrial scale to me, and other ministers".

The Post Office "lied to victims, to judges, to the public, to me and other postal ministers for over 20 years", he adds. "This is a conspiracy by the Post Office to deceive people."

Posted at 16:37
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-67910908

...and Jo Swinson (Post Office Minister) sent into bat at an inquiry when she became Post Office Minister in 2012 later stating that she was only briefed about the forensic auditors report AFTER they had been 'shut down' - she also now admits to having been "misled"!!!

The big breakthrough seems to have come with Parliaments Commons Committee inquiry when Vennells and Second Sight consultant sat next to each other answering questions and the Second Sight man clearly told the truth and Vennells clearly was attempting to cover up!

A WOW moment indeed!

Make no mistake this is a major, major scandal but it is hard to determine how much (or little) the Government was involved directly in it - but it is clear at around this time (if not earlier) that something rotten was happening here.

It would be interesting to check back as to what the government were saying over the years about possibly selling off the Post Office - then rowing back on the idea as that probably will give the time when the government actually got to know that something bad was going on.

Clearly the fall out from this will go on for years.

Sadly this is how the world has become these days - fair play to the few who sought out the truth and stood up to be counted - I tip my hat to the forensic accountants who did their job honestly and truthfully and stood by their findings - I wonder what pressures they were put under?

BoltonTillIDie

BoltonTillIDie

Nat Lofthouse

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I watched the ITV series too. Was a good watch and disgusting how they were treated by the post office. Hopefully the victims get all the compensation they deserve.

Link to the series (Mr Bates vs the Post Office)

https://www.itv.com/watch/mr-bates-vs-the-post-office/10a0469?gclid=CjwKCAiA1-6sBhAoEiwArqlGPslSYIXPGQhFMJCPtxAAIfe-uGGczdZ5PE8aMr8PnbcgLmsQ6a0GdRoCMsAQAvD_BwE

boltonbonce

boltonbonce

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Ten Bobsworth

Ten Bobsworth

Frank Worthington

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What an absolute horror story this is but it does demonstrate how many people will so easily fall in with the most vile and scandalous standards and how few will stand their ground.

Well done Julie Wolstenholme, former sub-postmaster at Cleveleys, and Jason Coyne the expert witness from Preston who would not cave in to the Post Office's outrageous attempts to pressure him and later discredit him.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-67921974

https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/post-office-lawyer-wanted-postmistress-to-keep-her-mouth-shut/5116789.article

Holmes reported that Talbot believed the liability question could be removed ‘and it’s then just about "how much to go away and keep your mouth shut’’.

Ten Bobsworth

Ten Bobsworth

Frank Worthington

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If you have time please watch Mandy
Talbot's performance at the Horizon It Inquiry, and if you can't spare more than a few minutes just watch it from 1:52.00 onwards. Priceless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ph2DQVOW0R4

Ten Bobsworth

Ten Bobsworth

Frank Worthington

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How interesting is it that probably the greatest miscarriages of justice in English legal history in hundreds of cases over more than twenty years should attract such little interest on Nuts?
What does that tell us?

karlypants

karlypants

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Ten Bobsworth wrote:How interesting is it that probably the greatest miscarriages of justice in English legal history in hundreds of cases over more than twenty years should attract such little interest on Nuts?
What does that tell us?

Go on Bob, we’re all thick cunts.

Ten Bobsworth

Ten Bobsworth

Frank Worthington

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karlypants wrote:
Go on Bob, we’re all thick cunts.

If only that was all it was.

boltonbonce

boltonbonce

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Ten Bobsworth wrote:How interesting is it that probably the greatest miscarriages of justice in English legal history in hundreds of cases over more than twenty years should attract such little interest on Nuts?
What does that tell us?

It tells us that, although I'm interested, I'm not willing to spend hours debating it on a football forum.
Lengthy posts aren't my thing.
You keep at it though, Bob.

The Post Office Scandal Giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e479brffvalw462ythl37peaseyfxd8l1k7kgksm8a2&ep=v1_gifs_related&rid=giphy

The Post Office Scandal Giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e479brffvalw462ythl37peaseyfxd8l1k7kgksm8a2&ep=v1_gifs_related&rid=giphy

Sluffy

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Ten Bobsworth wrote:How interesting is it that probably the greatest miscarriages of justice in English legal history in hundreds of cases over more than twenty years should attract such little interest on Nuts?
What does that tell us?

For what it is worth I watched the start of the youtube and managed about 10 minutes, part of which I spent googling who Mandy Talbot is (I'm still not entirely sure even following her explanation at the inquiry to presumably Wyn Williams, who is presiding over it).

I thought I'd skip to the end of it as you recommended and watched the video from 1:52:00 to the finish - and still couldn't really understand her vacuous explanations.

I did find this though in my google search which I didn't bother to post up earlier as I thought it presumably was part of her evidence at the inquiry anyway.

Lawyer had ‘nothing to hide’ despite advising ‘throwing money’ at subpostmasters

Emails suggested Mandy Talbot had suggested dealing with a subpostmistress by saying: ‘How much to go away and keep your mouth shut’?
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/blake-post-office-horizon-lancashire-government-b1110085.html

And fwiw I think to watch stuff like this you first need an understanding of who the people are, how they fit into and are involved in the process and a basic grasp of what is going on and why.

I'm no thicko no matter what view you care to hold of me and I've been a number of times a prosecution witness in my roles at various authorities, at Magistrates and County Courts, and thus had some interest and knowledge of what I was watching but still found it turgid and unexciting to view - so why would you believe anyone else would wish to flock to view it, let alone understand much of it?

I would rather wait to read the judges findings than sit through two hours of one persons witnesses testimony where she obviously knows she was part of a system that clearly got it disastrously wrong and is desperately trying to keep as best she can out of the shit that she has helped in part to create.

Just because stuff likes this shocks and excites you doesn't mean it has the same effect on others.

Most people have understood the scandal more from the ITV play than any amount of time watching the inquiry in action - it is the story that matters - and the inquiry will lay the ground as to what evidence there might be to hold those who have done wrong to be held accountable for.

As and when that happens, those appearances before a judge will be much more fun to watch I would imagine!

Ten Bobsworth

Ten Bobsworth

Frank Worthington

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Thanks Sluffy. Credit where its due for taking an interest and no I don't think you are a thicko.

Professor Claptrap of Karlsruhe wouldn't be Professor Claptrap of Karlsruhe if he were a thicko but it doesn't mean he's incapable of coming to jaw-droppingly bizarre conclusions like naming Marc Iles as his 'go to' expert on the finances of Bolton Wanderers. I put it down to wearing Leftyspecs.

Public Inquiries are intended to be viewed as a serious attempt to get to the facts but they also have the effect of 'kicking the can down the road' so that when the whole rotten truth eventually emerges its yesterday's news and is quickly forgotten about.

Observing Public Inquiries is interesting especially in relation to how the conduct of professional solicitors and barristers contrasts with some of the unprofessional charlatans that seem to occupy well-paid positions with generous pension provision in many of our public or publicly-owned institutions.

Mandy Talbot seemed to think that she was doing rather well in the lengthy exchanges that demonstrated over and over again her outstanding arrogance and dodgy judgement.

I thought that you might have noted the priceless look on Sam Stein KC's face and his comment at 1:54.10 after concluding his questioning of Ms Talbot who seemed to have left an inimitable mark on the proceedings.

It is necessary to follow the build up to fully appreciate it. Don't miss the comments of the previous questioning lawyer who looked like she could have happily throttled Ms Talbot.

Last edited by Ten Bobsworth on Sat 3 Feb - 8:45; edited 2 times in total

karlypants

karlypants

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boltonbonce wrote:

Ten Bobsworth wrote:How interesting is it that probably the greatest miscarriages of justice in English legal history in hundreds of cases over more than twenty years should attract such little interest on Nuts?
What does that tell us?

It tells us that, although I'm interested, I'm not willing to spend hours debating it on a football forum.
Lengthy posts aren't my thing.
You keep at it though, Bob.

Ten Bobsworth

Ten Bobsworth

Frank Worthington

Posts : 3368
Join date : 2017-08-17

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbCZAXLwTgw

Nowt to do wi me, mate. Exclamation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qA2G_YEtVE

Ten Bobsworth

Ten Bobsworth

Frank Worthington

Posts : 3368
Join date : 2017-08-17

120 Bark Street is the highest specification office in Bolton town centre, it says here:

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/10564167.last-unit-is-taken-at-bark-street-development/

Why was Post Office Ltd (POL) taking this high spec space in 2013 (along with Asons and Keoghs).

Were these offices acquired to keep some of those involved in covering up the Horizon scandal in upscale comfort whilst the lives of hundreds of Sub-Postmasters lives were wrecked beyond belief?

A correspondent in one of today's newspapers seems to believe that they were.

ttps://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13033763/post-office-horizon-scandal-alan-bates-postmasters-compensation-attempts.html#comments

Yesterday we saw counsel for the sub-postmasters summing up their contempt for the conduct of some of those called to give evidence in Phase 4 of the Inquiry, special mention being reserved for several named individuals, including POL's 'Evil Robot', Mandy Talbot.

“We have seen a parade of liars, bullies, amnesiacs and arrogant individuals give evidence before you, with sub-postmasters treated as subhumans and as an expendable cash resource”, said Sam Stein KC addressing the Inquiry Chairman.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/feb/02/post-office-inquiry-chorus-of-cowards-lawyers-say

Lets see what the next phase of the Inquiry reveals

karlypants

karlypants

Nat Lofthouse

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IS TV Licence the next big scandal for wrongful prosecutions...

Ten Bobsworth

Ten Bobsworth

Frank Worthington

Posts : 3368
Join date : 2017-08-17

karlypants wrote: IS TV Licence the next big scandal for wrongful prosecutions...

Quite possibly. Maybe it calls for another thread but lets pause for one moment and look at this excerpt.

This is Peter Sewell, a Fujitsu manager. As they all seem to be, he's wearing a new suit, new shirt and new tie but every bit as untrustworthy as the lot of 'em.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGCsvjYNWr0

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The Post Office Scandal

1 The Post Office Scandal Mon 8 Jan - 14:26

Sluffy

2 Re: The Post Office Scandal Mon 8 Jan - 15:17

Norpig

3 Re: The Post Office Scandal Mon 8 Jan - 15:33

karlypants

4 Re: The Post Office Scandal Mon 8 Jan - 15:36

Whitesince63

5 Re: The Post Office Scandal Mon 8 Jan - 17:19

Sluffy

6 Re: The Post Office Scandal Mon 8 Jan - 21:47

BoltonTillIDie

7 Re: The Post Office Scandal Mon 8 Jan - 22:25

boltonbonce

8 Re: The Post Office Scandal Tue 30 Jan - 13:23

Ten Bobsworth

9 Re: The Post Office Scandal Wed 31 Jan - 13:06

Ten Bobsworth

10 Re: The Post Office Scandal Wed 31 Jan - 22:53

Ten Bobsworth

11 Re: The Post Office Scandal Wed 31 Jan - 22:56

karlypants

12 Re: The Post Office Scandal Wed 31 Jan - 22:58

Ten Bobsworth

13 Re: The Post Office Scandal Wed 31 Jan - 23:08

boltonbonce

14 Re: The Post Office Scandal Thu 1 Feb - 0:38

Sluffy

15 Re: The Post Office Scandal Thu 1 Feb - 10:03

Ten Bobsworth

16 Re: The Post Office Scandal Thu 1 Feb - 10:17

karlypants

17 Re: The Post Office Scandal Fri 2 Feb - 8:20

Ten Bobsworth

18 Re: The Post Office Scandal Sat 3 Feb - 8:40

Ten Bobsworth

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karlypants

20 Re: The Post Office Scandal Sat 3 Feb - 10:08

Ten Bobsworth

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