What make more sense

Does it make sense to get rid of a decent player who is on higher wages and then keep a bunch of players on lower wages who are never going to play?

waynagain wrote:Does it make sense to get rid of a decent player who is on higher wages and then keep a bunch of players on lower wages who are never going to play?

Who are you talking about then?

I think he's confused himself

I agree.

It's better to have Kevin Davies than Mortiz, Beckford, Tierney, Spearing, Baptiste, Hall, Wilkinson and Hayden White.

bwfc1874 wrote:

waynagain wrote:Does it make sense to get rid of a decent player who is on higher wages and then keep a bunch of players on lower wages who are never going to play?

Who are you talking about then?

We got rid of Ricketts who could cover in central defence and at full back. He was better than Ream and Mills put together. Not great, but I'd bet his wages were not more than Mills and Ream are taking home.
When do any of you think we'll be seeing Bolger, Kellett, Wilkinson, Gregus etc in the first team?

Ricketts replaced by Baptiste, that's an upgrade.

This is yet another nonsense point from you, give it a rest.

On lesser wages too, I would have thought.

bwfc1874 wrote:Ricketts replaced by Baptiste, that's an upgrade.

This is yet another nonsense point from you, give it a rest.

replaced by Baptiste - but still better than Ream, Mills AND Mears - or do you think they are better?

We need a manager that can run the club like an accountant. More than most clubs in the football league in fact. Megson and Coyle just bought players and renewed contracts like kids in sweetshops.

Sure, there's such a thing as a false economy but I've not seen that from Dougie so far. I'm seeing a lot of overpaid trash being replaced by potentially great bargains. How effectively he can use them remains to be seen.

waynagain wrote:

bwfc1874 wrote:Ricketts replaced by Baptiste, that's an upgrade.

This is yet another nonsense point from you, give it a rest.

replaced by Baptiste - but still better than Ream, Mills AND Mears - or do you think they are better?

Ricketts was pretty disappointing over the last couple of seasons, and is getting on a bit now. 

The obvious points you've completely missed is that he only had a year to run on his contract and there was interest in him. Therefore getting him off a premier league contract was an option that we didn't have with the others you mention. Dougie tried to loan Mears out but he turned it down. If you think Sam Ricketts and Kevin Davies would improve our situation at the moment then you clearly haven't seen much of Bolton over the past couple of years.

So ye, yet another nonsense point from you.

Putting aside the agenda and bitchiness I think there's a different point to be made before this question can be answered properly and that is this: If we look at the squad we now have, it's good that we have players that are more affordable, but at present they don't look competitive as a team. So could they be more competitive if the manager used them differently? For example, if the CBs look rocky, could Dougie play Baptiste at CB (proven at this level) and stick White in at full back to scare the opposition shitless with his pace?
Seems to me that as Dougie has bought affordable players "with promise", and if plan A isn't working (too early to judge that yet though) couldn't plan B be based on giving all squad players an equal opportunity to play regardless of age or experience - purely based on performance? I'm not advocating chopping & changing every week but suggesting as I have in the past, more experimentation with personnel utilising the whole squad and adjusting the system according to the selection? That implies a greater focus on what we do and less focus on the opposition as appeared to be the case when he set out our stall at Forest.
Too early for this as yet, but I would hope that he's trying this behind the scenes so that senior players don't get too complacent. Early days yet but it appears that Dougie is taking a fairly conservative approach to date. If the squad can adopt the correct mentality - which would mean they all know they have a chance of playing if their performances are good enough - we might be better off for it and could surprise a few people.

wanderlust wrote:Putting aside the agenda and bitchiness I think there's a different point to be made before this question can be answered properly and that is this: If we look at the squad we now have, it's good that we have players that are more affordable, but at present they don't look competitive as a team. So could they be more competitive if the manager used them differently? For example, if the CBs look rocky, could Dougie play Baptiste at CB (proven at this level) and stick White in at full back to scare the opposition shitless with his pace?
Seems to me that as Dougie has bought affordable players "with promise", and if plan A isn't working (too early to judge that yet though) couldn't plan B be based on giving all squad players an equal opportunity to play regardless of age or experience - purely based on performance? I'm not advocating chopping & changing every week but suggesting as I have in the past, more experimentation with personnel utilising the whole squad and adjusting the system according to the selection? That implies a greater focus on what we do and less focus on the opposition as appeared to be the case when he set out our stall at Forest.
Too early for this as yet, but I would hope that he's trying this behind the scenes so that senior players don't get too complacent. Early days yet but it appears that Dougie is taking a fairly conservative approach to date. If the squad can adopt the correct mentality - which would mean they all know they have a chance of playing if their performances are good enough - we might be better off for it and could surprise a few people.

All fair points, and probably something we'll see if there are more results like Saturday. 

But the question was whether you would rather have Sam Ricketts and Kevin Davies or the signings we made over summer?

bwfc1874 wrote:

waynagain wrote:

bwfc1874 wrote:Ricketts replaced by Baptiste, that's an upgrade.

This is yet another nonsense point from you, give it a rest.

replaced by Baptiste - but still better than Ream, Mills AND Mears - or do you think they are better?

Ricketts was pretty disappointing over the last couple of seasons, and is getting on a bit now. 

The obvious points you've completely missed is that he only had a year to run on his contract and there was interest in him. Therefore getting him off a premier league contract was an option that we didn't have with the others you mention. Dougie tried to loan Mears out but he turned it down. If you think Sam Ricketts and Kevin Davies would improve our situation at the moment then you clearly haven't seen much of Bolton over the past couple of years.

So ye, yet another nonsense point from you.

Now who talking nonsense? I see you didn't tell us when the players who are getting paid for not playing will play. Their wages are way more than Ricketts was, and I didn't say he was great, I said he was better than what we have, but you must think Mears, Ream and Mills are better. As for him being on his last year, I guess you've not been watching Bolton very long or you would have heard of Elmander and Alonso.

waynagain wrote:Now who talking nonsense? I see you didn't tell us when the players who are getting paid for not playing will play. Their wages are way more than Ricketts was, and I didn't say he was great, I said he was better than what we have, but you must think Mears, Ream and Mills are better. As for him being on his last year, I guess you've not been watching Bolton very long or you would have heard of Elmander and Alonso.

You're going to have to explain all this for me, I can't make any sense of it.

My point was simple, we cancelled Ricketts contract to get him off the wage bill, he was in the last year of his contract and we were never going to get a fee for him. So we agreed to pay a % of his contract instead.

This was not an option for Mears, Mills or Ream as they have longer than a year left. So it doesn't have made any financial sense to terminate and pay off over a years contract.

I've not said anywhere that they are better than Ricketts, but I don't think he's a vast improvement on any of them. So to get a big wage off the wage bill made sense.

Elmander and Alonso are irrelevant to this topic as they are two players we wanted to keep and improved our first team. None of the above do.

bwfc1874 wrote:

waynagain wrote:Now who talking nonsense? I see you didn't tell us when the players who are getting paid for not playing will play. Their wages are way more than Ricketts was, and I didn't say he was great, I said he was better than what we have, but you must think Mears, Ream and Mills are better. As for him being on his last year, I guess you've not been watching Bolton very long or you would have heard of Elmander and Alonso.

You're going to have to explain all this for me, I can't make any sense of it.

My point was simple, we cancelled Ricketts contract to get him off the wage bill, he was in the last year of his contract and we were never going to get a fee for him. So we agreed to pay a % of his contract instead.

This was not an option for Mears, Mills or Ream as they have longer than a year left. So it doesn't have made any financial sense to terminate and pay off over a years contract.

I've not said anywhere that they are better than Ricketts, but I don't think he's a vast improvement on any of them. So to get a big wage off the wage bill made sense.

Elmander and Alonso are irrelevant to this topic as they are two players we wanted to keep and improved our first team. None of the above do.

So, you don't understand Maths. Ream, Mills and Mears wages combined are a lot more than what Ricketts was making. We gave him away and still pay some of his wages - even though  you admit those 3 players are not better than him. All 3 of them could have been loaned and if they refused they could have been told they would never play for Bolton again and could sit in the stands every week. That might sound expensive to you, but it's no more expensive that paying them to not play, which is what's happening now.
Bolton turned down offers for Elmander and Alonso during their last year of contract, so using that as an excuse is a joke.
Now tell me when Gregus and Bolger are going to play and earn their wages? How about Kellett?

There's been no interest in Ream, Mears turned down a chance to go and Mills may still go but as of yet there hasn't been an offer (as far as Im aware). So the most likely outcome of your scenario is we have 3 players on good money sitting in the stands. 

You need squad players and that's what they are, we're trying to shift them to bring in replacements but if not they'll play when needed. The fact they haven't played in the first 3 games doesn't mean they won't all season.

I've no idea what you're talking about with Elmander and Alonso, it's completely irrelevant to this topic and I don't know what you think Im using them to excuse?

Gregus and Bolger are signed as prospects for minimal cost and could easily be breaking into the first team this season or next. Bringing through young players something we need to do if we want to be successful in the future. Surely you're not arguing with that?

bwfc1874 wrote:There's been no interest in Ream...

Yesterday Nixon was saying something about Bristol City was showing some interest in him.

(Don't how he would fare under international clearance rules these days although I do believe he were in the squad for the last USA game).

Sluffy wrote:

bwfc1874 wrote:There's been no interest in Ream...

Yesterday Nixon was saying something about Bristol City was showing some interest in him.

(Don't how he would fare under international clearance rules these days although I do believe he were in the squad for the last USA game).

We'd better give him the ultimatum then. Go or you'll spend the season sitting in the stands.

bwfc1874 wrote:There's been no interest in Ream, Mears turned down a chance to go and Mills may still go but as of yet there hasn't been an offer (as far as Im aware). So the most likely outcome of your scenario is we have 3 players on good money sitting in the stands. 

You need squad players and that's what they are, we're trying to shift them to bring in replacements but if not they'll play when needed. The fact they haven't played in the first 3 games doesn't mean they won't all season.

I've no idea what you're talking about with Elmander and Alonso, it's completely irrelevant to this topic and I don't know what you think Im using them to excuse?

Gregus and Bolger are signed as prospects for minimal cost and could easily be breaking into the first team this season or next. Bringing through young players something we need to do if we want to be successful in the future. Surely you're not arguing with that?

How do you know there has been no interest?
You just proved my point by saying we need squad players, Ricketts was a better 'squad player' than any of those 3. Get rid of 2 of them and you free up Ricketts wages. Now we still have the 3, pay their wages and still pay part of Ricketts wages - are you Gartside's accountant, if so I can see why we're in 130 million worth of debt.
You say Ricketts was let go because he was in his last year of contract - if that's a good enough reason, then why didn't we get rid of Alonso and Elmander when they were in their last year - and we'd been offered money for them.
Gregus and Bolger were brought in last year and still haven't done anything. How long are their contracts? How many players who have played this season so far are products of the club's youth programme?

waynagain wrote:You just proved my point by saying we need squad players, Ricketts was a better 'squad player' than any of those 3. Get rid of 2 of them and you free up Ricketts wages.

I haven't proved your point, because you've completely changed it.

There was interest in Ricketts - getting rid was the best thing to do. He's not a massive improvement on any of those players, but we've replaced him with Baptiste who's better. 

Shifting players is easier said than done. If we can get rid of them, we will and (hopefully) improvements will come in. Ricketts out, Baptiste in is good business. Ricketts in Mears, Mills and Ream out is not - because you need more than one squad player.

You say Ricketts was let go because he was in his last year of contract - if that's a good enough reason, then why didn't we get rid of Alonso and Elmander when they were in their last year - and we'd been offered money for them.

Ricketts had 12 months left, the interest in Alonso and Elmander came when they had 6 months left on their contracts. Clubs are allowed to talk to players in the last 6 months, Fiorentina did that, so Alonso didn't sign knowing he'd get a move to them and I'd guess Elmander knew he'd have offers at the end of his time with us, so he didn't either. 

Although there was interest in both, I don't think there were any concrete offers, or if there were the offer wasn't good enough for us to part with key players.

Gregus and Bolger were brought in last year and still haven't done anything. How long are their contracts? How many players who have played this season so far are products of the club's youth programme?

Gregus and Bolger are development team players, hopefully going to break through in the next couple of years. You say it yourself we don't bring enough players through; Dougie also said our u21s were poor when he arrived, so bring in another teams youth and they can develop with us instead. Bringing youth through will be key under FFP.