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BWFC managers on a hiding to nothing

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Sluffy
observer
Natasha Whittam
terenceanne
Hipster_Nebula
aaron_bwfc
wanderlust
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1BWFC managers on a hiding to nothing Empty BWFC managers on a hiding to nothing Sun Sep 22 2013, 11:41

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

It's significant that there are more threads on this forum about replacing the current manager than games we've played this season, and although this forum doesn't really represent the views of all BWFC fans, I think it does capture the concerns of many.
So having had 5 managers (I think) since Allardyce left, why is it that we're so eager to change, welcome each incumbent as the next Messiah, and then condemn them so quickly as soon as we have a bad run?
I understand that some fans are in total denial about the financial situation we are currently in as evidenced by some of the players that are suggested we buy and that's understandable after some of the daft purchases that were made in recent times in a final bid to keep us at the top table, but even those fans are finally recognising that we can no longer throw money at the problem.
Looking at the latest "Freedman out" thread, Sluffy nicely summarises Freedman's problem, but I think it runs a lot deeper than laying the blame at the door of OC (and IMO Megson before him)
I think it comes down to this:
After years of spending big on salaries under Allardyce we were stuck with a decision - go for broke and try to turn those 6th and 8th places in the prem into regular European contenders (which would have brought in decent income from TV etc. to offset the high wage bills) or try to get there on a budget to keep the rising debt under control. The Board opted for the latter and Allardyce walked.
But to be a contender on a budget required changes in the way we play and recruit.
SL didn't get any time worth mentioning to see what he could do to bring about the necessary change, but was regarded as a failure as our league position was poor and the fans, used to success were fairly vocal about it and the Board showed a lack of patience.
In came Megson who introduced a "don't lose" mentality which helped our league position, but in the process he had a final fling of profligate spending to try to redress the balance. Incredibly, the Board let him spend (money that many feel should have been given to Fat Sam). The debt rocketed, but we didn't really progress, although in fairness Megson made a few astute purchases like Cahill.
By the time OC came in, the job had changed again. The Board, having recognised that debt was now getting serious clearly moved the goalposts regarding net spending.
We saw the first round of clearing out players on high salaries and the first serious attempts to buy youngsters to develop. More spending followed but it was relatively balanced compared to Megson.
Throughout all this, the Board seemed to operate reactively rather than sticking to a plan. They reacted to fans opinions and reacted to results - even though we were and are going through a period of change during which bad results could only be expected.
Dream team? Not backed, so we'll never know.
Freedman was brought in probably because of his track record of bringing through young players and finding raw talent on a budget - which is exactly what needs to happen.
There have been problems with Megson, Coyle and Freedman. They've all made some bad decisions in the transfer market. It happens to the best of managers but the key difference is we can't afford mistakes - with our budget, we have to get it right.
All three have had more than their fair share of bad luck too, especially in terms of injuries to key players.
Add to that a dwindling fan base with high expectations and it's easy to see why we have problems.
But for me it comes back to the Board and the lack of consistent leadership and determination to stand behind their decisions. In short, they lack bollocks.
If the Board had decided that our priority when Allardyce wanted more money was to control our debt, then they should have planned for a new approach, appointed someone to deliver it and stuck with them through thick and thin - regardless of short-term results and regardless of the fans reaction to those results. By now, we would have a new financially sustainable structure and stability.
After all, the change from buying proven players with something to prove and with very high salary demands (Campo, Okocha, Stelios, Youri etc.) to sourcing relatively low cost talent and developing it is enormous in terms of creating the right infrastructure and takes years to get right.
But the Board chopped and changed, reacting to everything and we became a rudderless ship characterised by what appeared to be impulse purchases and multiple changes in policy depending on what they felt was needed at the time.
The baby was thrown out with the bathwater and what we're left with is little or no progress, a poor and demotivated squad and a manager under constant pressure to deliver now - not in the future as any restructuring plan would demand.
Freedman - and anyone else brought in - is on a hiding to nothing.
He's young and has obvious flaws, but that maybe an advantage if we stick with him. His media language has changed noticeably this season if you look at it carefully. Yes - he's still coming out with the trite comments you'd expect in a media interview and yes - he seems to have done a U-turn as regards loanees, but:

  • he has finally publically stated that our financial position dictates that we will be dependent on developing young players and finding raw talent - something that should have been said years ago
    he has finally admitted that he has a lot to learn (and is committed to doing so)
    he has pointed out that some of our senior players are not performing - which we know to be true
    he has made it clear that BWFC will no longer pay over the odds in the transfer market

Dougie comes across as a stubborn little f***** but if we finally put an end to the knee-jerk management that the Board have been dishing out in recent years and stick to the plan and support the manager through this difficult period, maybe Dougie will be the one to bring back the good times. I think that if he stays, he'll loosen up his ideas and be able to get the most out of this squad - he'll have to.
He has a lot to prove, but he is young enough to change and develop and given that no manager in their right mind would come to BWFC unless the Board are stupid enough to hand out yet another big payment in a bid to show that we are still big time charlie's (which we're not) we may be better off sticking with a manager who sees the transformation of BWFC as a personal challenge.
If I were the Board, I'd give him a couple of months during which time I'd expect to see changes to the system, more appropriate and frequent use of younger players and an improvement in both performances and league position - basically enough time to show that he is capable of change and to implement it.
And if he doesn't make it we'll be back to square one again, but at least we'll have given him the time to show that he isn't frightened of accepting that it isn't working and having the balls to do something about it. I like managers who can admit they're wrong from time to time.
My only worry is that the Board will f*** up again.

aaron_bwfc

aaron_bwfc
Moderator
Moderator

Great thread Wander, although I agree with most of what you have said I simply don't believe Dougie will change if they gave him 2 more months or 10 IMO.

He's had the whole summer and near on 2 months this season, he doesn't seem to be changing anything at all, the whole team looks totally out of ideas.

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

aaron_bwfc wrote:Great thread Wander, although I agree with most of what you have said I simply don't believe Dougie will change if they gave him 2 more months or 10 IMO.

He's had the whole summer and near on 2 months this season, he doesn't seem to be changing anything at all, the whole team looks totally out of ideas.
It's true he's had time over the summer and he came out of it with a plan (which I believe involved Holden) Now he's tried that plan and it's failed. More significantly though is that he has publicly recognised that it's not working and that things need to change. This is good as he has shown he's able to admit it and is willing to change things - so it makes sense to give him a chance to make changes. If he doesn't (or he does and that also fails) there would be no reason to continue with him, even though we'd have to start all over again. But if he succeeds, we'll come out of it with a better team and a better manager.

aaron_bwfc

aaron_bwfc
Moderator
Moderator

Good point, although a lot of what he says after a defeat recently has reminded me of what Coyle used to come out with before he got sacked though which is worrying.

Some fans keep saying we have shit players, which isn't exactly true IMO, under the right guidance a good manager could organise our defence and make us more solid at the back hence give our attacking players more confidence to go forward.

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

They're not as good as we think and certainly nowhere near as good as the media hyped them up to be.

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

They're not shit, but they are bang average in this division IMO. I think most of us thought that wasn't the case when we were relegated.

This division smacks as being more about desire, professionalism and a bit of blood and guts rather than raw "talent." And i think we have a meagre one or two willing to go that extra yard.

terenceanne

terenceanne
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf

Doog was brought in to save us from going down again under OC  ..... the new manager complex kicked in and we moved up the table.  How we got up to 7th was a bloody miracle .....however today we are worse than last season and unfortunately we again need the new manager complex to just survive in this division.  Doog may or maynot turn it around.....but we will be in league one by the time he figures it out.

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

aaron_bwfc wrote:
Some fans keep saying we have shit players, which isn't exactly true IMO, under the right guidance a good manager could organise our defence and make us more solid at the back hence give our attacking players more confidence to go forward.
I don't agree.

Knight, Wheater, Baptiste, Tierney & Mills are all experienced players in their late 20's or early 30's. If they still need a coach to tell them how to mark a player it's a poor do.

The simple explanation is usually the best one: they are all shit.

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

exactly.

and many of our problems stem from individual mistakes.

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Natasha Whittam wrote:
aaron_bwfc wrote:
Some fans keep saying we have shit players, which isn't exactly true IMO, under the right guidance a good manager could organise our defence and make us more solid at the back hence give our attacking players more confidence to go forward.
I don't agree.

Knight, Wheater, Baptiste, Tierney & Mills are all experienced players in their late 20's or early 30's. If they still need a coach to tell them how to mark a player it's a poor do.

The simple explanation is usually the best one: they are all shit.
It may be naive of me to say this but I will anyway.
Dougie is a young manager with a lot to learn, but I'm fairly confident that he and his team know how to drill a back four and get them to work with the players in front of them.
I don't think he's got the tactics right and I disagree with some of his selections, but I really don't think he has that many options at the back.
When I look at the goals we've conceded and the manner in which we've conceded them I find it difficult to look beyond player error or lack of effort as the reason.

I also find it poignant that same people who have consistently blamed player error (notably Knight) are now turning on the manager since Knight has been dropped.

If the manager has any degree of responsibility I'd suggest that it's in going with a system that lacks width, which in turn makes us susceptible to attacks down the flanks, which can be countered by higher workrate from the midfielders - which leads me back to player error/inadequate workrate as the cause.

observer


Andy Walker
Andy Walker

wanderlust wrote:
aaron_bwfc wrote:Great thread Wander, although I agree with most of what you have said I simply don't believe Dougie will change if they gave him 2 more months or 10 IMO.

He's had the whole summer and near on 2 months this season, he doesn't seem to be changing anything at all, the whole team looks totally out of ideas.
It's true he's had time over the summer and he came out of it with a plan (which I believe involved Holden) Now he's tried that plan and it's failed. More significantly though is that he has publicly recognised that it's not working and that things need to change. This is good as he has shown he's able to admit it and is willing to change things - so it makes sense to give him a chance to make changes. If he doesn't (or he does and that also fails) there would be no reason to continue with him, even though we'd have to start all over again. But if he succeeds, we'll come out of it with a better team and a better manager.
Very accurate picture painted by Wanderlust.  Just add Davies and Holden to the mix. DF lost BOTH.  The preseason was dismal and the team has still not learned to play together.  The BOARD denied DF the purchase or loan of a Dawson type or Dawson himself (if WBA would sell).  The team only gelled last season when we had Spearing quarterbacking the offense and Dawson leading the defense.  He even got Knightmare to perform.  I am rooting for Dougie, and I had high hopes after last week's game.  This week 4 or 5 minute 2nd half debacle wounded us all deeply.  I'm not sure if Dougie knows enough tactics, but he has admitted mistakes and underperformance and now he needs to get TOUGH and kick some butt in the clubhouse.  Knight should not be the only one sitting on the bench.

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

wanderlust wrote:...makes us susceptible to attacks down the flanks, which can be countered by higher workrate from the midfielders - which leads me back to player error/inadequate workrate as the cause.
What midfielders do you suggest though?

Lee, Knight and Hall don't tackle.

Spearing and Medo play in the middle of the park.

Pratley is really a box to box attacking midfielder.

Ream possibly converted to play on the left perhaps – not sure of his engine though?

We simply don't have any midfielders who can naturally play on the flanks other than powder puff tackling wingers - and haven't had any for a number of seasons now, not since Taylor on the left and probably Stelios on the right.

This as led to a major, major unbalancing of the team imo - which leaves both our flanks vulnerable to attack, and a conveyor belt of crosses into the box - and goals continually conceded.

Not remember Cahill saying something when he was with us to the effect of 'there's only so many crosses we can head away before we have to let one in'.

A fundamental flaw in the team which is beginning to look fatal to us stemming the flood of goals that we continue to ship right now imo.

Reebok Trotter

Reebok Trotter
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Some very good comments on this post. I tend to agree with most of what has been written. A knee jerk reaction by sacking the manager is the last thing we need. 3 points at home on Saturday against Yeovil will be the best way to silence the armchair critics.



Last edited by Reebok Trotter on Sun Sep 22 2013, 20:35; edited 1 time in total

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Reebok Trotter wrote:A knee jerk reaction by sacking the manager is the last thing we need.
Knee jerk? We've just had our worst start for 100 years. Yes, our worst start in a century of football.

How in the world would sacking him be a knee-jerk reaction??

Reebok Trotter

Reebok Trotter
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Natasha Whittam wrote:
Reebok Trotter wrote:A knee jerk reaction by sacking the manager is the last thing we need.
Knee jerk? We've just had our worst start for 100 years. Yes, our worst start in a century of football.

How in the world would sacking him be a knee-jerk reaction??
Because it would. Continuity is what we need at the moment. Bringing in a new manager and backroom staff would probably be a bloody disaster, both financially and on the pitch.

The new manager would probably want his own players in and this would come at a price.

Our next six fixtures are all winnable. If we are still in the bottom three by the 23rd November then I will agree that it's time for a change of manager but until then I'm keeping my fingers crossed that we can and will turn the corner.



Last edited by Reebok Trotter on Sun Sep 22 2013, 20:35; edited 1 time in total

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Reebok Trotter wrote:Because it would. Continuity is what we need at the moment.
Oh right, you want it to be our worst start in 123 years?

Stuff continuity, I want a manager who can motivate and get these players moving.

wessy

wessy
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf

Can we afford to change? we lost out to Barnsley for a loan player last month, so how can we afford to pay off Dougie & his back room staff, and then employ a new set. We need to stick for a while and pray we don't have to twist

doffcocker

doffcocker
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo

Here's what I see in my crystal ball.

1. We sack Dougie, November ish.
2. Replacement is named, everybody goes "who?" and "Gartside out" but "we've gotta get behind him".
3. He makes a slow start, everybody goes "Fartside's fucked up YET again".
4. We go on a late winning streak and finish 15th. Every interview he does, it's SUDDENLY all "I'm starting to think this guy really knows what he's doing" and "this guy is definitely the one, he talks a hell of a good game." Anybody that's not convinced is told "you're an idiot...he saved us from going down and ur still moanin, get behind him ffs"
5. Massive optimism for 14/15 season. The new guy's definitely the one to take us up.
6. We take 5 points from the first eight games. On second thoughts, we've actually just got ourselves yet another clueless fool. Every interview it's SUDDENLY all "this guy's starting to get on my tits with his bullshit and fucking annoying (insert accent) accent."
7. He and the club part company, November ish 2014.

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

My crystal ball has it this way:

1) We sack Dougie next Saturday evening
2) Mick McCarthy takes over
3) We win every game until the end of the season and win the league
4) We sign Jermaine Defoe in the Summer and he scores 35 goals to push us to a top 4 Premier League finish
5) Mick McCarthy is named the new manager of Man Utd
6) Bolton give Sammy Lee another chance
7) By 2020 we are in League 2

kennster

kennster
Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka

Natasha Whittam wrote:My crystal ball has it this way:

1) We sack Dougie next Saturday evening
2) Mick McCarthy takes over
3) We win every game until the end of the season and win the league
4) We sign Jermaine Defoe in the Summer and he scores 35 goals to push us to a top 4 Premier League finish
5) Mick McCarthy is named the new manager of Man Utd
6) Bolton give Sammy Lee another chance
7) By 2020 we are in League 2
Where does Stuart Holden feature in this crystal ball? 

2015 or 2018?

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