P.13. W.1. D.7. L.5. PTS. 10.

We need to look at a foreign managar next for certain. Poss Spanish lower league or a coach from a Serie A team.

A lot of you are forgotting that we can quite easily remove DF and back room team in an instant! Put them all on garden leave until their contracts are up in June 2014. We carry on paying their wages as we would do normally and move JP and LSL into caretaker management for the rest of the season. We still have cash available that DF would use in Jan. it's winding me up this crap that we can't afford to get rid of DF and still buy players!

Sluffy wrote:

doffcocker wrote:I don't go along with the "we just need to accept that we've not got the players" argument.
We were relegated on 36 points (a total that would have been enough in other PL seasons to stay up). The squad wasn't weakened that summer. There was no integral players lost, Spearing was added, and our once best player returned from injury.
This season we've brought in two or three players that the majority of the division couldn't afford.
The players just aren't playing as well as they could be, and the manager has to take some responsibility for that.

The job is harder than some fans think, but countless other managers are doing better jobs with worse resources than Dougie.

We've since lost or let go -

Klasnic
Petrov
Kevin Davies
Alonso
Ricketts
Reo-coker
Jussi
and Boyata

We've also had Mark Davies out injured for what seems like ever - so to say the squad wasn't wakened is simply wrong.

We started last season crap under Coyle - which finally brought about his sacking (way, way, way too late imo).

Freedman didn't start off all that well but did put a fantastic run together - but it as to be said we had a lot of luck during it too.

We've simply gone back to what I consider normal for the team - simply unbalanced and not good enough overall.

Sack Freedman by all means but I honestly don't think whoever comes in can do much with the squad that we have and the money that they are on.

It's only when the likes of Knight, Ngood, Mears, etc are off the wage bill that whoever is manager at the time may have some room to maneuver.

We've just got to get used ti it that the good days have gone for us and we won't see them back anytime soon.

Spot on Sluffy.  It will take until the payroll is reduced by the loss of those wage earners before the club can rebuild.  Eddie is happy with his interest payments and we have to live with what we have.  It's a shame the players can't earn their keep each and every game that they play.  I think Dougie has a good eye for cheap talent and that' what it will take to rebuild.  I'm not as fluent in the tactics as all of you, so I take it that almost everyone finds his tactics wanting.  But that still does not make up for players at this level who can't pass;  who can't beat a goalie one-on-one;  who sky the ball 50 feet over the net;  who don't seem to break a sweat.  I believe the word is professionalism and the team should show that.  The biggest loss we have is not having a captain on the team... with Davies departure, we have no one to fill those shoes.  It seems the team has no heart or soul.  Maybe that's why we miss Kevin Davies... giving the players the stick when they don't put out. We all grow old and lose our ability, but it's hard to find a captain who can inspire the team.  Two nice Scottish managers have not been able to do that.  And now there is no money for a quick fix.  I still find it amazing that we have only won one league game since Dawson has left.  Maybe he was the leader we needed (I know we can't get him since he is not for sale).  But maybe that's what the glue was last season... a real captain on the pitch.

Sluffy wrote:You don't half talk crap at times Chris.

Davies bought the club when no one else would touch it.  If he had not the club would have folded because they could not pay the outstanding bank loan back.

The owners of the shares did not have to sell them to Davies but something like 95% did!

So much for his 'day light robbery' of buying an 'undervalued' club!

In sport I was always taught to follow the ball and so to in business you need to 'follow the money'.

Forget about all this talk about Davies owning the club / why doesn't he invest more in players / Davies 'doesn't give a shite' / he should sack Gartside, etc, etc - and simply follow the money.

What I mean is that Davies wealth came from selling his kettle business which brought him just over £90 million. A year or two later following the recession (and the purchase of the club) his wealth (including the club as an asset) had fallen to just over £60 million.

There is simply no way that Davies therefore can underwrite the £125 or so million of the debt feom his personal wealth.

There is other money invested in the club that maybe under Davies name but certainly not from Davies pocket.

It would not surprise me in the least if Gartside has an investment in the club too via the offshore tax exile company Moonshift - it would explain how he's kept his job anyway.

Common sense will tell you that whoever has invested the £125 plus million will want it back some day and running the club financially into the ground isn't going to facilitate that now is it?

There's something not quite right at Bolton - nobody in their right minds would build up a debt of £135 million - so until we can understand where the money really as come from and when it really needs to be paid back, the club is going nowhere - no matter how much we want it to.  So even if Freedman is sacked, the next manager in will still have the same problems of the squad we already have and little if any money to improve things.

This is it for us now for the foreseeable future - we better get used to it!

Sluffy, I know you don't work in the financial markets and can understand your ignorance which many also assume.

He sold himself as the saviour of the club and got people to sell their shares at a greatly undervalued price.

As an modern example of that is the Government selling their shares in Royal Mail at a great undervalue price - as have been seen as the shares were sold to the common person at just over £3/shares and now they are worth almost £6/share - thus doubling their value and showing that the company was undersold! the exact same thing happened with Bolton Wanderers!!!

Offshore financial companies can do many things with people's money - even doubling the amount they have invested in the finance company. Most of it are to do with the foreign exchange markets of swaps, spots and forwards and you would honestly be surprised as how much can be invested and how much returns can be within 6 months never mind a year etc etc etc.

For an example its best to review and read "Blackrock" website, or "Marathon" or "Pimco" websites as to what they offer and the returns that can be achieved - in a very similar vein to many of the pension investments funds! And most of these companies have headquarters in the Bahamas!

And has been stated and proved MANY times there is no rush to pay back as there is a clause in the many contracts that the loans are based Revolving Credit and only has a fixed period once, and only once when ether Davies or his Estate states, and then that repayment period is 10 years (normal than a Bank Loan!!!)

You start off by saying I talk crap and then actually repeat what I have been saying, all evening, right at the end. So in fact I don't talk crap at all!!!

You don't know where I work mate.

The facts are simple - the bank loan was falling due and the club simply didn't have it. The shares were considered junk and no one but Davies was prepared to put money into the club.

If Davies didn't buy the club we would have gone into administration. The shareholders decided selling to Davies was not only the best deal on the table - it was the only deal on the table!

Another fact is that Davies wealth came solely from selling his shares in Strix to ABN AMRO Capital in 2005, which earned him £93 million.

In 2011 Four - Four - Two estimated his wealth to have now fallen to just (just!) £40 million (and that includes the club as part of his assets).

Nobody, absolutely nobody is going to put their entire wealth and jeopardise the family future of themselves and their kids and grand kids into a punt on a football club - particularly one located in the shadow of Manchester United, Manchester City, Liverpool, Leeds and at least a dozen other clubs of similar size, let alone first having to take a punt on the financial markets to double / treble his entire wealth during the period that much of the western worlds financial markets have had to be underpinned by direct national government intervention to save them from catastrophic collapse.

One of us two Chris lives in ga-ga land - and it isn't me.

Sluffy wrote:You don't know where I work mate.

The facts are simple - the bank loan was falling due and the club simply didn't have it.  The shares were considered junk and no one but Davies was prepared to put money into the club.

If Davies didn't buy the club we would have gone into administration.  The shareholders decided selling to Davies was not only the best deal on the table - it was the only deal on the table!

Another fact is that Davies wealth came solely from selling his shares in Strix to ABN AMRO Capital in 2005, which earned him £93 million.

In 2011 Four - Four - Two estimated his wealth to have now fallen to just (just!) £40 million (and that includes the club as part of his assets).

Nobody, absolutely nobody is going to put their entire wealth and jeopardise the family future of themselves and their kids and grand kids into a punt on a football club - particularly one located in the shadow of Manchester United, Manchester City, Liverpool, Leeds and at least a dozen other clubs of similar size, let alone first having to take a punt on the financial markets to double / treble his entire wealth during the period that much of the western worlds financial markets have had to be  underpinned by direct national government intervention to save them from catastrophic collapse.

One of us two Chris lives in ga-ga land - and it isn't me.

Well I know it ain't me, either.... Plus, as some may suggest otherwise, I don't report people to their employers, unlike the person who tried to do that to me!!!

Personal wealth cannot be reported accurately,  Reported wealth such as that in 4-4-2, The Telegraph etc are based on tangible liquid assets - those that can be see to be sold off, or used as security for collateral such as property or businesses.  This does not take into account Bonds, offshore accounts/funds and also not forgetting savings in ones bank account - as, unlike businesses, to gain an individuals savings/funds/bonds one has to gain the permission of the account holder otherwise it breaks the data protection Act of 1998, whereas for  businesses these have to be reported to the Companies Registration Office and as such a more accurate figure can be gained!!!

To be quite honest neither you nor I know how much of his personal wealth has gone into the club.  In fact except for those in the know such as his business/personal wealth advisors only him and they know how much - even the general public (and that includes publications) do not know!!!

Again your ignorance of the financial markets shows through as would anyone with any serious thought put their money into one basket???  Different funds, different bonds, various FX markets - all outside the boundaries of the national debts due to the fact that these funds and bonds are not all based in one market - its known as spreading!!! And funnily enough this sort of investment has not been affected by the recession/depression!  In fact the market has grown at last 4 fold during the exact same period!!!

Another unknown quantity is whether we would have gone into administration or not - we will never know as to what would have happened. Again its all guestimation as to what may have happened if Davies had not got the shares.

There are a lot of "buzz words" which imply insider-info being bandied about here, ladies, but to the layman, it looks a bit like a cock fight to show who's cleverer.

We ALL love BWFC, Freedman's fucking clueless and we're up Shit Creek.

Simple. Dumb it down Please for the rest of us.

I guess you must not have crossed paths with Mr Chris Amos (bwfc71 and several other accounts) before!

There is no attempt on my part to be a clever clogs - I'm simply spelling out why someone who had £93 million before the financial markets went into melt down, is hardly likely to now have assets of at least £125 million by sticking his money into BWFC!

Anyway did you actually read what I've posted Chris?

It's a fact that Davies wealth came from the sale of Strix in 2005, where he worked as the Chief Executive being appointed in 1984.

It's also I who as just pointed out above that no sane person is going to jeopardise their entire wealth on one venture!

I'm sure Lehman Brothers knew a bit more about the financial markets than you do, and that they knew all about 'spreading' (the risk), bonds and revolving creadit, etc, - didn't do them much good though.

Best of luck with your Nandos venture, I'm sure your franchise will be safe with your knowledge of how to easily treble your capital during the worst financial crisis in eighty years!

Sluffy wrote:I guess you must not have crossed paths with Mr Chris Amos (bwfc71 and several other accounts) before!

There is no attempt on my part to be a clever clogs - I'm simply spelling out why someone who had £93 million before the financial markets went into melt down, is hardly likely to now have assets of at least £125 million by sticking his money into BWFC!

Anyway did you actually read what I've posted Chris?

It's a fact that Davies wealth came from the sale of Strix in 2005, where he worked as the Chief Executive being appointed in 1984.

It's also I who as just pointed out above that no sane person is going to jeopardise their entire wealth on one venture!

I'm sure Lehman Brothers knew a bit more about the financial markets than you do, and that they knew all about 'spreading' (the risk), bonds and revolving creadit, etc, - didn't do them much good though.

Best of luck with your Nandos venture, I'm sure your franchise will be safe with your knowledge of how to easily treble your capital during the worst financial crisis in eighty years!

In did read it, but it seems to me that because I posted what I did you completely ignored what I said!

Lehman Brothers was a Bank and not a Fund/Asset Management company that primarily dealt in the US sub-prime mortgages market - hence its failure like the near failure of all others that primarily dealt in the so-called lucrative sub-prime market.  The ones that did not collapse or needed government bail-out, of which there are hundreds of Banks, are the ones that had a spread portfolio and didn't concentrate on one genre within the industry.  

Lehman Brothers also collapsed due to other bad Banking practices such as:-

-Cosmetic accounting - especially the so-called temporary removal of assets which they described as an outright sell yet its was doing the round of the books of its subsidiaries - hence not actually being sold to create capital but being hidden.
-Short selling, which is very much illegal in most markets around the world.

Put all three together and what do you have???  A complete mess and something that no Government would want to save.

There is a fantastic TV Film that depicts the events of 12-15 September 2008 - such as The Last Days of Lehman Brothers, and then there are a few decent documentaries about the event and the hows and whys which, if interested, are good to watch.

I also, have to point out, yet again, if you are actually reading this, is he putting all his money if the Bolton Wanderers basket?  As I have said in my last post his true wealth is not known by anyone bar himself and a very select few - due to the Data Protection Act and the fact unlike a business aa person does not disclose everything they own or have investment in.  The 4-4-2 example you gave previously is based on assets known such as property and shares but does not include Bonds and investments in funds and assets.

For example if my personal wealth is approx.  €130,000 that is only based on assets that can be capitalised - I have many other assets in fund and bonds which boosts that figure up but if mine was to be printed then it would be the lower figure as that is what is only information available to the public.

Also as you and I have pointed out in the past most the money is done through the Bahamas company - which is far safer then directly giving the money, as , yet again, not aall eggs are in one basket and if one small pot decreases that can be easily made up by another pot which is increasing in vale - hence why spreading assets/wealth is so popular - it is not as risky.

I would to advise you to read up about the ForEx market and see how it has bucked the trend over the last 8 years and actually increased its value during the same period and how the number of deals and asset funds have actually increased during this period.

And to the other poster, yes I have been around for a while under numerous call-signs, and before even Sluffy mentions it, yes I have been through a ark period in my life which has now passed, but one thing that has never changed is the fondness for reading and knowing subjects that I am actually interested in.