Derby 0-0 Bolton

Copper Dragon wrote:

bwfc1874 wrote:That said it's Dougies job to get us as many points as possible, that's what he did tonight.

He didn't though.

It was possible to get three points tonight and he only got one.

Douglas has shot himself in the foot again.

Play the same side man! They are running around a pitch kicking a football, not going over the top at the Somme.

I thought the implication was obvious to be honest, a point was probably the best we could have got from the game.

Obviously it's speculation but Derby are a good side, going there and getting a point is a good result.

luckyPeterpiper wrote:

bwfc1874 wrote:Resting Wheater and Mason whilst getting a point at a top side is a good result. But it was boring as shit to watch. That said it's Dougies job to get us as many points as possible, that's what he did tonight.

 win gives THREE points so you're wrong mate, he didn't win as many points as possible. We only got one.  

That said before this match I stated I'd be happy with a point but I think the main beef tonight is NOT the result, it was the utter negativity and dire football coupled with Dougie backsliding into his already proven ineffective system. To be frank listening to the commentary we were rather lucky to keep a clean sheet and then when we had some chances to win the game against a clearly tired derby side we had NO forwards on the field, not even Moritz who I call a midfielder. 

I'm sorry but to play a match where you tinker with a system and lineup that has won three on the trot and won them handsomely is silly enough, to then remove ALL the strikers from the field is lunacy no matter how late in the day it might have been when Juke came off. 

Frankly Dougie showed he has learned nothing and does not intend to change his ways. I already want him out as you know but tonight just reinforced that belief. You cannot seriously tell me he got it right tonight because we had our backs to the wall from the off and very rarely looked as if we'd be any threat to them. When we did have the ball Juke was outnumbered and isolated because there was no one in support and then we even managed to take him off and effectively play 5-5-0. He's basically cocked up every single thing tonight and we are very lucky we got away with it. On another day Derby would have put four past us by half time. Thankfully Zat Knight had a mostly good game and Ream held up pretty well alongside him but this type of football is suicidal. We don't have the players to make it work, DF of all people should know that by now so why does he persist in reverting to it? Because he's too arrogant, too stubborn and too convinced only he knows what to do when it's clear he's now approaching being the only man who DOESN'T.

Sorry but this is just nonsense LPP.

He chose a game plan and he stuck to it. Wheater came in with not even 5 minutes to go to waste a bit more time. Surely the reason he took off Juke hasn't gone over your head? It's obvious.

Derby barely created a thing, we weren't hanging on by any stretch and their fans were saying that as we walked away from the ground. You say we don't have the players to make it work, I think your mate confused as to what we were trying to make work tonight. He went for a 0-0 and he got it.

It's not a game plan I'd have chosen by any means, I'd have stuck with the same team for entertainments sake more than anything else. But I'm not going to slate him for going to a dangerous side who have scored 60 goals this season and keeping a clean sheet.

bwfc1874 wrote:

I thought the implication was obvious to be honest, a point was probably the best we could have got from the game.

The best Millwall could have got from the game was a point, but they got three.

The point isn't in question, it's a good point.

The fact that the side that has absolutely blown away the teams before it had been changed (when the players weren't injured and sat on the bench) is what's probably deflating some Bolton fans.

I'd be miffed if I was a Bolton fan.

Copper Dragon wrote:

Sluffy wrote:

Sluffy wrote:I wouldn't be surprised to see changes to the team for tomorrows match - I think Wheater may be carrying a knock from Saturday for instance, if so I expect Hutton to play and Ream partner Knight at the back.

  

Managers are always selecting players carrying knocks for the bench to come on as a sub.

Well Douglas might.

Hobson's choice I would imagine, there was no one else other than that kid Hall.

Wheater took a knock towards the end of Saturdays game so it seemed sensible to me to bench him for a game just 3 days later particularly when he's just brought in a player Hutton, who needs to play games, and for who we must be paying a reasonable bit of the large weekly wedge he's on.

Not much point risking Wheater for a full game and making things worse if he didn't have to.

I doubt he would have played at all if we had been losing late in the game and only came on because Freedman likes to close out the game with three centre backs.

That's my thinking anyway.

I did also think that he would go to 4-5-1 for this match but as I didn't say it yesterday I'm not claiming any credit for that one.

Freedman happy with point

Dougie Freedman praised his side’s resolute performance in Tuesday’s clash with Derby County at the iPro Stadium.

On an evening which saw the hosts enjoy the lion’s share of possession, the Whites withstood tirades of attacks to secure a hard earned point in the East Midlands.

A draw which the manager believes was richly deserved, with the result being one which he was confident Wanderers can undoubtedly take positives from.

“At the end of the day, we’ve managed to pick up a very good point and one that we should be proud of,” he said following the final whistle.

“Despite the difficult result that they had on Saturday against Millwall, they’ve been flying and they came out with even more energy because they’re still fighting for promotion.

“We showed a resilience in our defending and when we asked questions of the goalkeeper I felt we did very well.

“I’m very proud of the point because it is one that we wouldn’t have got earlier on in the season.”

With the Rams failing to breach the Bolton rearguard on a bitterly cold evening, Freedman also paid tribute to the team for their ability to cope with a talented Derby attack.

“I felt we had to reshape very quickly because Derby showed a very attacking display – one which was one of the better attacking displays I’ve seen this season.

“It is fair play to them because they played very well, but we had to revert to make sure that we could withstand that and defend against them and I felt like we did that.”

He continued: “Derby are probably disappointed that they haven’t won the game given that they had so many chances, but from our point of view we can’t fault our effort and commitment nor our concentration and defending.

“We are professional sportsmen and we come into work every day and give our best – we will be working very hard between now and the end of the season to ensure that we finish in a strong position.”

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Sorry but this isn't a positive for me. I'm fucking sick of Duggie's attitude.The bloke has no football soul. After being on such a run and looking so good he reverts to type and parks the bus. We aren't going to go down so what's to lose.We've been playing good,attractive positive football and reaping the benefits with some fabulous results.After such a dire,tedious,awful season he still reverts to type. What's the fucking point of tonight? Why not carry it on and have a go at Derby. The bloke's a complete tinkering and tactical meglomaniac who's completely up his own arse. I've had a few sherberts and on the face of it a 0-0 draw at Derby is a fair result but I'm just sick of Duggie's over cautios and negative approach to things. Really can't see me shelling out for a season ticket next season to watch Duggie's self indulgent experiments.

Sluffy wrote:
Hobson's choice I would imagine, there was no one else other than that kid Hall.

Wheater took a knock towards the end of Saturdays game so it seemed sensible to me to bench him for a game just 3 days later particularly when he's just brought in a player Hutton, who needs to play games, and for who we must be paying a reasonable bit of the large weekly wedge he's on.

Not much point risking Wheater for a full game and making things worse if he didn't have to.

I doubt he would have played at all if we had been losing late in the game and only came on because Freedman likes to close out the game with three centre backs.

That's my thinking anyway.  

I did also think that he would go to 4-5-1 for this match but as I didn't say it yesterday I'm not claiming any credit for that one.

If he's carrying a knock then he shouldn't be on the bench......considering that you had three centre backs on the pitch.

Bolton could have won that, Derby have gone to pot.

Mason?

It's simple, if you can't try to win a game when you have nothing to play for, what's it going to be like at the start of next season when something is at stake?

I'll tell you. Fucking boring.

I was dissapointed when I saw the team selection and from reports read it was an onslaught that could quite easily have gone wrong for us. But it didn't and a few weeks ago we all would have been over the moon with a point at Derby but we must get back on the goal trail against Brighton which is no easy task.

Copper Dragon wrote:

bwfc1874 wrote:

I thought the implication was obvious to be honest, a point was probably the best we could have got from the game.

The best Millwall could have got from the game was a point, but they got three.

The point isn't in question, it's a good point.

The fact that the side that has absolutely blown away the teams before it had been changed (when the players weren't injured and sat on the bench) is what's probably deflating some Bolton fans.

I'd be miffed if I was a Bolton fan.

I suspect you're more miffed because you're a Burnley fan CD. You should be grateful we limited your nearest rivals to a point.
As a Bolton fan I have very mixed feelings.
Point away at Derby - great. It's one step nearer to safety and we still can't guarantee that we will be safe although recent performances suggest we're "too good to go down" - which has been the kiss of death for many clubs in the past.

But starting with 1 and a half strikers when we've had recent success with two and switching around the back four (OK perhaps enforced to some degree) meant we could get the forward momentum going we've had recently. That might be because of the personnel changes or it might be just a matter of Derby's quality, but either way it wasn't confidence inspiring.

At one point I was thinking that Dougie had already started holding auditions for a new contract.

I'm not alone in wanting Dougie to play more expansive attacking football and give the youngsters some game time but I suspect he won't consider it until our survival is guaranteed. Fair enough as relegation would be the end. 

But in the meantime we're going to have to put up with his cautious "it's a results business" approach - which is neither entertaining or particularly good for th[size=12.727272033691406]e nerves.[/size]

He played Juke and Mason away at Leeds but changed it for Derby so he must be setting the team up according to the opposition we're playing. [size=12.727272033691406]Nobody knows what would have happened if he'd started with two strikers last night - we might have won but equally we might have been murdered.[/size]


[size=12.727272033691406]But the fact of the matter is that Dougie set us up in a way which limited our chances of scoring (although we might have done with a bit more quality) and surrendered the midfield for much of the game.[/size]
[size=12.727272033691406]We were lucky to get nil - but we did.[/size]


[size=12.727272033691406]So the sooner we can get to mathematical safety the better and then hopefully we'll see both the youngsters and fringe players  getting a chance to prove they're good enough to play for us next season. Auditions if you like. We need to know who needs to be retained in the summer and who needs to go and be replaced.[/size]

lusty he won't change his tinker approach whether we're mathematically safe or not mate. Last season he used it and blew a play off spot with it when he made his 'tactical' changes on the final day of the season. 

Dougie's problem is that he's a micro-manager, changing things that don't need to be changed as if he feels a need to be seen to be doing something, prove he's in charge. There was absolutely no reason to change the line up last night, Derby may be 3rd in the league but their form has dipped of late while ours was on the rise. 

It wasn't broken yet once again Dougie felt the need to fix it and the result was a return to all the dire boring negativity that has convinced so many of us he should be gone already. 

He did himself no favours last night at all, he only reinforced the belief many of us have that he's not right for the job and never will be.

Rotating for 2 games in a week is not micro-managent, unnecessary tinkering or a new concept of any sort. Managing Wheaters fitness is going to be very important given how important he's been since returning. Mason i don't know but if there was a risk of burnout before the weekend then it was a good decision. The logic is obvious I'm surprised at the amazement on here.

luckyPeterpiper wrote:lusty he won't change his tinker approach whether we're mathematically safe or not mate. Last season he used it and blew a play off spot with it when he made his 'tactical' changes on the final day of the season. 

Dougie's problem is that he's a micro-manager, changing things that don't need to be changed as if he feels a need to be seen to be doing something, prove he's in charge. There was absolutely no reason to change the line up last night, Derby may be 3rd in the league but their form has dipped of late while ours was on the rise. 

It wasn't broken yet once again Dougie felt the need to fix it and the result was a return to all the dire boring negativity that has convinced so many of us he should be gone already. 

He did himself no favours last night at all, he only reinforced the belief many of us have that he's not right for the job and never will be.

I agree he tends to overthink things but in some respects I'm surprised he didn't play an extra wide midfielder (Lee, Hall or Eagles) instead of Moritz from the start in a straight 451 - he would have done that a month ago. Definitely errs on the side of caution, perhaps because he looks at the League table too much.

At some stage before the summer he will need to make decisions about the players he wants to keep or sell. I just think he will be focused on getting us to safety before he "risks" any form of experimentation outside the options he's shown us so far.

You call him a tinkerer, but for me he hasn't tinkered enough. All he seems to do is either go for 1 forward striker with a packed midfield or 2 forward strikers or like last night, 1 forward and 1 somewhere between (a plan he abandoned after an hour). If we're going to rebuild the squad he needs to look at all the players and all the options but with his cautious approach that's not going to happen until we're mathematically safe at the earliest.

Which means we're in for a boring slog until we get the points on the board.

He doesn't do himself any favours in as much as I genuinely think most fans would rather lose playing 442 than get a point playing 451, he was getting stick from the stand from about half an hour in. Rightly or wrongly, he's stubborn and clearly doesn't care what the fans want to see.

lusty on reflection I think you have a good point there so I'll amend mine. 

Dougie tinkers but at the WRONG TIME. 

He leaves things alone when it's clear to any observer they need to change, like that awful junk we played week in week out that had me and many others losing patience and calling for his head. 

Then, whe he finally DOES change something and finds a system that actually works and does so superbly he gives it just three games then changes it BACK to the junk that came before. WHY? 

If I could do it I'd stick a sign up in his office where he can see it. The sign would read:

WHATEVER YOU WERE PLANNING TO DO THIS WEEKEND


STOP, THINK AND DO THE EXACT OPPOSITE


AND WHEN WE WIN 3 ON THE TROT


DON'T CHANGE THE TEAM YOU PRATT!

bwfc1874 wrote:He doesn't do himself any favours in as much as I genuinely think most fans would rather lose playing 442 than get a point playing 451, he was getting stick from the stand from about half an hour in. Rightly or wrongly, he's stubborn and clearly doesn't care what the fans want to see.

I think he wants the fans to understand him but he doesn't make it easy to do so. He's certainly not scared of making unpopular decisions.

From his perspective though it's understandable. He's had a torrid time with the fans - justifiably given the results. 
When we were losing every week he kept pointing to the positives and saying it was just a matter of time before we came good. The fans didn't listen to that so naturally enough Dougie accepted that poor results were the reason for the criticism he came in for. 

I don't think for a minute Dougie would accept that the early season criticism was equally fuelled by the style of play/tactics.

When Dougie's prediction came true and we turned a few good performances the criticism died down so that reinforced Dougie's apparent belief that bad results = criticism and good results = no criticism - even though we know it's not quite as simple as that in reality. I reckon Dougie thinks that as he's in the best position to select a team and tactics to get a result in any particular game, the (less well-informed) fans should accept his tactics etc.  as long as results continue to improve overall. After all, it's his job that's on the line.

So I reckon that Dougie will be entirely focused on getting a result by any means - even if it's playing ugly and riding our luck like last night - at least until we're safe.

To the people who are happy to say it was a good point gained, and a positive, and we can't moan about it...

Would you have been happy to see us go there as 442 and go for the jugular? And would you have criticised the manager if we had played 442 and lost?

I've already said from a personal POV I'd rather have gone and attacked, it was a boring game. I wouldn't have criticised the manager had we attacked and lost, but there's no doubt most on here would have found a way to.

There's no aspect of our game that hasn't improved thanks to switching to 4-4-2. I could understand going to third in the league and playing 4-5-1 (or some wacky variation) if it generally makes us stronger in any way. We haven't just improved going forward lately, teams are no longer putting us on the back foot from the word go. We've played effective, attacking football and it's taken pressure off the defence.

Having said that, what is there to lose at this stage anyway? People have wasted thousands on watching this season unfold and were just starting to enjoy it, with 2 months left. As others have said, he's just robotic.

wanderlust wrote:
I suspect you're more miffed because you're a Burnley fan CD.

Bloody hell Wanderlust, give me a bit of credit.

I'm not miffed at all.

I'd be miffed if I was a Bolton fan for reasons that I and quite a few others on this thread have stated.