The stupidity of Gaza

I've met a few Palestinians in my time and like all peoples they're a mixed bunch. Totally understand their desire for an independent Palestinian state - after all they've lived there long before the West created Israel after the War and for the most part co-existed with their Jewish neighbours relatively peacefully.
But somewhere along the line I have trouble understanding why Hamas are so stupid.
Don't they understand that the Israelis are a modern military force with serious weaponry and are backed by the West?

In the current conflict, 53 Israeli soldiers have been killed - and 3 civilians.
At least 1250 Palestinians have died - nearly all civilians.

Even Hamas must be able to see the internet images of Jews enjoying a picnic in the hills watching the firework display as Gaza is bombed to bits?

Surely Hamas should be able to come up with better tactics than firing a few roman candles over the wall or digging tunnels that lead to an open and exposed plain?

If they are able to smuggle those rockets through the blockade into Gaza, they shouldn't have much of a problem (relatively) in taking out a few Israeli cities by poisoning the water supply or blowing up a few power plants. So why walk into the trap that is Gaza and condemn thousands of their own women and children to an inevitable death?

No time for either side to be honest. Both appear to have massive chips on their shoulders when trying to explain it all away. 
Bacon butties would be absolutely useless there!!

Its not the Palestinians fault - its hamas. 

Hamas, are using human shields - they know there own people are going to die in a conflict they have no intention of stopping, they can then use images of dying children as propaganda to stir up hatred towards Israel - they are doing this to themselves. 

They hide rocket launchers around civilian populations knowing they would be attacked. Israel has a right to protect itself, the fact thousands are dying, im afraid, is collateral damage caused by Hamas using the people its supposed to protect as weapons. 

At least the IDF advised Palestinian civilians to leave the strip and gave them advanced warning of pending attacks, Hamas stopped them leaving - Hamas simply bomb as much of Israel as they can and actively try and kill as many 'filthy Jews', regardless of age or civilian/Military status as they can. 

The Gaza strip will end up totally flattened and it will be the fault of Hamas. 

Having said that, the Palestinians elected a group of fundamental Islamic extremists in the first place, so they reap what they sow...

Israel spen't money on building bomb shelters and a missile defense shield to help its citizens survive attacks... Hamas spent all their 'aid' money on thousands of rockets and hid them in civilian areas... think about it.

If you believe that human shield propaganda then you don't have a clue what you're talking about Rebel.

1.5 million people are penned into that tiny strip of land, Israelis know full well they're going to hit civilians with their 'targeted strikes' they say human shield to blame Hamas for Israeli bombs killing civilians. Where are they expected to go? Israel controls the borders and the sea they are literally penned in from 70 years of illegal Israeli expansion.

The stupidity of Gaza...?

I feel it would be remiss of me, if I didn't at this point, insert an obvious gag about "wasting his talent by going on the piss all the time with Jimmy Five Bellies and Danny Baker and then beating his Mrs up."

However, as this is a serious topic, I shall refrain.

bwfc1874 wrote:If you believe that human shield propaganda then you don't have a clue what you're talking about Rebel.

1.5 million people are penned into that tiny strip of land, Israelis know full well they're going to hit civilians with their 'targeted strikes' they say human shield to blame Hamas for Israeli bombs killing civilians. Where are they expected to go? Israel controls the borders and the sea they are literally penned in from 70 years of illegal Israeli expansion.

Have you been reading Islamic websites? 

Tell you what, Hamas (a Terrorist organisation) are correct to indiscriminately bombard Israeli civilian populations with rockets day and night... those bastards in Israel have a right cheek trying to defend themselves...    

Before the start of the military campaign against Hamas, safe passage was offered to all Gazan civilians... The borders remained closed - by Hamas who would not allow anyone to leave. 

Economic blockades by Israel are the correct thing to do - Hamas are given aid money to look after its people and spend it on weapons to attack the very people giving the aid in the first place. 

Peace will never come to Gaza or the west bank unless Hamas are removed and replaced with a less extremist government.

You really believe the one-sided version in the Western media?  No evidence whatsoever of arms dumps in hospitals etc. Like WMD in Iraq - if they're there - show us.
Israel could walk into Gaza behind their tanks and take over in a day but they want to sit back and ethnically cleanse the area.
The Palestinians want their own state - in fact the British Govt of the 40s promised them their own state and then sold them out (like we do) 
Hamas elected? There doesn't seem to be an alternative to Hamas - it would be like not voting for the Cosa Nostra candidate in Sicily. As always, it's the ordinary people that suffer and the current state of affairs isn't a choice - they've been driven to it by oppressive neighbours and arrogant leaders.
Hamas are to blame for sure, but so is Israel.

Reebok_Rebel wrote:

bwfc1874 wrote:If you believe that human shield propaganda then you don't have a clue what you're talking about Rebel.

1.5 million people are penned into that tiny strip of land, Israelis know full well they're going to hit civilians with their 'targeted strikes' they say human shield to blame Hamas for Israeli bombs killing civilians. Where are they expected to go? Israel controls the borders and the sea they are literally penned in from 70 years of illegal Israeli expansion.

Have you been reading Islamic websites? 

Tell you what, Hamas (a Terrorist organisation) are correct to indiscriminately bombard Israeli civilian populations with rockets day and night... those bastards in Israel have a right cheek trying to defend themselves...    

Before the start of the military campaign against Hamas, safe passage was offered to all Gazan civilians... The borders remained closed - by Hamas who would not allow anyone to leave. 

Economic blockades by Israel are the correct thing to do - Hamas are given aid money to look after its people and spend it on weapons to attack the very people giving the aid in the first place. 

Peace will never come to Gaza or the west bank unless Hamas are removed and replaced with a less extremist government.

I can't believe how naive you are to believe everything you've just written. You need to learn for yourself and not just believe everything the Israeli propaganda machine pumps out -

Try this for starters - 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/gaza-israel_b_5624401.html?utm_hp_ref=tw

wanderlust wrote:
The Palestinians want their own state - in fact the British Govt of the 40s promised them their own state and then sold them out (like we do) 

Going off at a slight (but still thinly connected) tangent, I had no idea until recently how we (The British government) fucked the Czechs and the Slovaks over royally, not once but twice in the 40's.

Firstly we contrived to ignore a long standing military pact the French had with them and happily went along with ceding the Sudetenland to the Nazis, thus opening the door to full-on invasion and then after the war, we purposely stood back and let the Soviets march in and impose Communism, despite their pleas for help.

It's no wonder everybody else hates us......

Breadman wrote:

wanderlust wrote:
The Palestinians want their own state - in fact the British Govt of the 40s promised them their own state and then sold them out (like we do) 

Going off at a slight (but still thinly connected) tangent, I had no idea until recently how we (The British government) fucked the Czechs and the Slovaks over royally, not once but twice in the 40's.

Firstly we contrived to ignore a long standing military pact the French had with them and happily went along with ceding the Sudetenland to the Nazis, thus opening the door to full-on invasion and then after the war, we purposely stood back and let the Soviets march in and impose Communism, despite their pleas for help.

It's no wonder everybody else hates us......

That's how the "British Empire" was put together though - we've always been sneaky snakes. We took India by doing dirty deals with rival rulers and played them off against each other without doing the actual fighting. My favourite was Henry Morgan who was a (Welsh) Caribbean pirate hunted by the English Navy until he proved useful in taking land off the Spanish so the King made him an Admiral in the Navy and ultimately Governor of Jamaica. Typical British two-faced conniving. We have never been burdened with moral standards when it comes to money.

You leave Captain Morgan alone.

I'd be scuppered without his litre bottles of cough mixture - I'd never sleep!

Breadman wrote:You leave Captain Morgan alone.

I'd be scuppered without his litre bottles of cough mixture - I'd never sleep!

I said he was my favourite Bread - although I actually prefer white cane rum, ideally my mate's home distilled otherwise standard stuff like Wray & Nephew or even Appleton white - definitely without syrup!

Can't be coping with a perfectly good clear distillate of sugar cane spoiled with fluorescent turquoise or equally distastefully coloured shite mixed in. Looks like a bad ice cream but used to be very popular with the rummies in Moss Side.

You're well traveled, aren't you?

(I remember from previous posts.)

Have you ever been to Cuba?

We made the mistake of going on a tour of the Havana Club distillery at half nine in the morning.

I couldn't stand up by eleven o'clock.

And it was interesting to discover that even saying the name Bacardi is strictly verboten throughout Cuba, after the family fled and set up operations in the States. I asked our guide about it and he just looked at me quizzically and pretended he'd never heard the name.

Strange place.

Breadman wrote:You're well traveled, aren't you?

(I remember from previous posts.)

Have you ever been to Cuba?

We made the mistake of going on a tour of the Havana Club distillery at half nine in the morning.

I couldn't stand up by eleven o'clock.

And it was interesting to discover that even saying the name Bacardi is strictly verboten throughout Cuba, after the family fled and set up operations in the States. I asked our guide about it and he just looked at me quizzically and pretended he'd never heard the name.

Strange place.

Not Cuba although it's been on the bucket list for a while. Managed to avoid it somehow but I have a cunning plan to slide into retirement over the next year or two which may give me the time to do it. If I go I don't want to be in a beach hotel miles from anywhere (which might as well be a beach hotel anywhere) so I need to check out what a gringo with passable Spanish can achieve before I set off. Interested in the old casinos and ruins in Havana and the old American cars - I like faded history and peasant cuisine so would have to see if that's possible. Probably hire a motorbike to get around.

Havana's fantastic.

You can almost smell the history and imagine what it was like during its heyday.

The rest of the country was a bit of a let-down, if I'm honest.

Like you, I speak passable Spanish and I tried really hard to break down the barriers between the locals and us but with little or no success.

We suffer from being seen (in their eyes) as being the same as the hated "Norteamericanos", and they tend to look down their noses at you, whereas tourists from other nations appear to fare better.

I felt really let down by the whole experience - it ruined my long-held romantic (and very naive) image of the noble Cubans, working tirelessly to achieve a common aim and thumbing their noses at the Yanks.

The sad reality is, they're an impoverished people who live in fear of the secret police and are a miserable bunch.

(On our walking tour of Havana, we had a plain clothes plod 50 yards behind us for four hours, listening to what the tour guide was saying. He never referred to it as just "the revolution", it was always "The Glorious People's Revolution of 1959 against the Dictator Batista." Interesting but sad at the same time.)

That said, don't leave it too late before you go, as the country's changing already and becoming more influenced by the US at a steady rate.

bwfc1874 wrote:

Reebok_Rebel wrote:

bwfc1874 wrote:If you believe that human shield propaganda then you don't have a clue what you're talking about Rebel.

1.5 million people are penned into that tiny strip of land, Israelis know full well they're going to hit civilians with their 'targeted strikes' they say human shield to blame Hamas for Israeli bombs killing civilians. Where are they expected to go? Israel controls the borders and the sea they are literally penned in from 70 years of illegal Israeli expansion.

Have you been reading Islamic websites? 

Tell you what, Hamas (a Terrorist organisation) are correct to indiscriminately bombard Israeli civilian populations with rockets day and night... those bastards in Israel have a right cheek trying to defend themselves...    

Before the start of the military campaign against Hamas, safe passage was offered to all Gazan civilians... The borders remained closed - by Hamas who would not allow anyone to leave. 

Economic blockades by Israel are the correct thing to do - Hamas are given aid money to look after its people and spend it on weapons to attack the very people giving the aid in the first place. 

Peace will never come to Gaza or the west bank unless Hamas are removed and replaced with a less extremist government.

I can't believe how naive you are to believe everything you've just written. You need to learn for yourself and not just believe everything the Israeli propaganda machine pumps out -

Try this for starters - 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/gaza-israel_b_5624401.html?utm_hp_ref=tw

I suspect I fall on the same side as 1874 in this debate though I certainly wouldn't read anything written by MH. I'm sure he wouldn't want someone who he believes lives "like an animal" reading his holy words.

 

Can't say I respect his religious beliefs, but I enjoy his articles and he did write quite a good piece in response to those quotes -

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/anatomy-of-a-hitchens-hatchet-job_b_1742497.html

Worth a read even if you don't necessarily believe his version, Peter Hitchens is one of the most repulsive people on the planet so Im inclined to sympathise with Mehdi on this one.

You may have already seen but MH's head to head with Richard Dawkins is well worth a watch if you haven't Hipster - as are his debates with Zionists in relation to this thread, all up on Youtube.

Even Peter Hitchens' own brother didn't like him much.......

bwfc1874 wrote:Can't say I respect his religious beliefs, but I enjoy his articles and he did write quite a good piece in response to those quotes -

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/anatomy-of-a-hitchens-hatchet-job_b_1742497.html

Worth a read even if you don't necessarily believe his version, Peter Hitchens is one of the most repulsive people on the planet so Im inclined to sympathise with Mehdi on this one.

You may have already seen but MH's head to head with Richard Dawkins is well worth a watch if you haven't Hipster - as are his debates with Zionists in relation to this thread, all up on Youtube.

I have seen the Dawkins - Hassan debate, I thought Dawkins embarrassed him personally. There's not really anywhere you can go once you assert you believe that someone flew to "heaven" on a "winged" Horse.

Ye that's why I thought you would enjoy it, Dawkins definitely embarrasses him he wouldn't let the winged horse drop.