Bolton Wanderers Football Club Fan Forum for all BWFC Supporters.

You are not connected. Please login or register

Bolton Nuts » BWFC » Wandering Minds » Harry Roberts

Harry Roberts

Go to page : 1, 2  Next

Go down  Message [Page 1 of 2]

1Harry Roberts Empty Harry Roberts on Thu Oct 23 2014, 10:13

Reebok Trotter

Reebok Trotter
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Britain's longest serving prisoner is shortly to be released after forty eight years in prison.   Back in 1966 Roberts was an armed robber and well known to the police. While about to commit an armed robbery he was sat in a van in Shepherds Bush with other gang members when he was approached by two unarmed coppers who he promptly shot dead. Another copper was also shot and killed by one of his accomplices.
At the time of the offence Roberts was thirty years old. He was charged with murder and throughout his trial he showed no remorse. He was sentenced to life imprisonment with a recommendation from the Judge that he should remain behind bars for the rest of his natural life with a proviso that he serve a minimum term of thirty years imprisonment before he could be considered for parole.
Over the years Roberts has applied for parole on several occasions but his appeals were always rejected by successive Home Secretaries.
Our current incumbent Teresa May ( tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime ) has decided that at 78, Roberts no longer poses a threat to society. The Police Federation have stated that the decision to release him is a kick in the teeth for the families and relatives of the three dead coppers.
Is it right that some crimes are deemed so serious that there can be no possibility of parole or has Roberts done his time and should he be released?
Personally I think he should rot in prison until he croaks. He may be 78 but he could still live a pleasant life for a number of years. Unlike the coppers who he cut down in their prime.



Last edited by Reebok Trotter on Thu Oct 23 2014, 10:22; edited 1 time in total

2Harry Roberts Empty Re: Harry Roberts on Thu Oct 23 2014, 10:21

Soul Kitchen

Soul Kitchen
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Agree entirely.

3Harry Roberts Empty Re: Harry Roberts on Thu Oct 23 2014, 10:28

Numpty 28723

Numpty 28723
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Some crimes are so monstrous that the offenders should never be set free. This is one of them.

4Harry Roberts Empty Re: Harry Roberts on Thu Oct 23 2014, 10:37

Reebok Trotter

Reebok Trotter
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
No longer a threat to society?


Britain's most notorious police killer faces spending the rest of his life behind bars following revelations in The Mail on Sunday about how he terrorised a woman who he worked with on day release.
Harry Roberts, 72 - jailed for life for murdering three unarmed policemen in 1966 - was told by the Parole Board last week that he will remain in the Category 'C' closed prison at Littlehey, Cambridgeshire, as he is still a risk to the public.
Experts said that Roberts has little or no chance of ever being allowed back into the community.
And sources close to Justice Secretary Jack Straw indicated that although the Parole Board is responsible for any decisions about Roberts's release, murderers are normally kept in jail if considered a 'significant' risk to the public.
In April, The Mail on Sunday exclusively revealed how from his cell Roberts orchestrated a five-year campaign of intimidation against Joan Cartwright, 65, and her son, including horrific attacks on her animals.
Mrs Cartwright works at an animal sanctuary in the Midlands, where Roberts worked on day release from Sudbury open prison.
When she secretly complained about his behaviour, he was moved from an open prison to a closed one.
But he then initiated his hate campaign in a bid to stop Mrs Cartwright and her son giving evidence against him at a parole hearing.
The triple murderer rang Mrs Cartwright up to five times a week for nearly four years from Channings Wood prison in Devon.
The calls included terrifying veiled threats that coincided with the attacks on her animals.
In the worst incident, a horse's head was hacked at with an axe the night before Mrs Cartwright and her son were due to give evidence.
Another of Mrs Cartwright's horses had to be put down days after her husband Peter had resisted giving Roberts a character reference.
Other assaults between 2002 and 2006 led to a horse losing an eye; a donkey dying after its pelvis was shattered, probably with a baseball bat; the family's pet cat being electrocuted, and a peacock being strangled.
Roberts also coerced Mrs Cartwright to visit him in jail, so he could repeat his threats to her face.
After several parole hearings Roberts was refused release in December 2006 because of Mrs Cartwright's evidence. But he had another chance to apply this year, which was turned down last week.
Mrs Cartwright was only able to speak about her ordeal after The Mail on Sunday persuaded a judge to lift a court order shielding her identity.
Roberts has denied all the allegations.
Yet far from being relieved about last week's decision to keep Roberts behind bars, Mrs Cartwright and her son believe they are now at even greater risk with the police killer remaining in jail.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1202193/Triple-police-killer-Harry-Roberts-stay-jail-revelations-The-Mail-Sunday.html#ixzz3GxXXbetr

5Harry Roberts Empty Re: Harry Roberts on Thu Oct 23 2014, 10:48

Bwfc1958

Bwfc1958
Tinned Toms - You know it makes sense!
If you take a life you should give your own IMO. If we had the death penalty shit like this wouldn't be happening would it because he'd be dead. My partners sister got stabbed 82 times by her ex after she left him. He got 18 & a half years minimum. Not even close to being enough but One day he'll be out and she lives in fear as he's threatened her as well. Death penalty for these evil bastards would mean people could sleep that little easier knowing their life is not under threat

6Harry Roberts Empty Re: Harry Roberts on Thu Oct 23 2014, 10:57

Guest


Guest
@Bwfc1958 wrote:If you take a life you should give your own IMO. If we had the death penalty shit like this wouldn't be happening would it because he'd be dead. My partners sister got stabbed 82 times by her ex after she left him. He got 18 & a half years minimum. Not even close to being enough but One day he'll be out and she lives in fear as he's threatened her as well. Death penalty for these evil bastards would mean people could sleep that little easier knowing their life is not under threat


Sorry, can't agree.

The death penalty doesn't deter people from committing violent crime - if it did, nobody would ever be murdered in those US states that still have it on their statute books but they're still dying in their thousands.

I have a strong moral objection to the death penalty in principle, as it all seems a bit "Old Testament" to me and I don't think any society can call itself civilised if it uses it.

And the logic has always seemed flawed to me:

You kill someone - Bad thing obviously.

You're tried in a court of law - Fine so far.

You're found guilty - Ok.

You're sentenced to death - Er.....hang on.

Isn't that why you're on trial in the first place?

You know, killing someone......?

Doesn't stack up for me.

7Harry Roberts Empty Re: Harry Roberts on Thu Oct 23 2014, 11:12

Reebok Trotter

Reebok Trotter
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I certainly think there is a decent argument for bringing back the death penalty in certain circumstances. Child murderers and the like for sure. I agree the death penalty will not stop people committing murder but by disposing of the scumbags permanently it means they are no longer a threat to society anymore and surely that has got to be a good thing?

8Harry Roberts Empty Re: Harry Roberts on Thu Oct 23 2014, 11:16

Bwfc1958

Bwfc1958
Tinned Toms - You know it makes sense!
Maybe I would agree with you breadman if this terrible thing had never happened to us but as Iv said my mrs lives in fear of the future. Why should she? Her sisters life has been taken in a horrific way. Her life has been threatened by this monster and cannot rest easy because it might happen to her. Then there is our kids we need to worry about as well. I could go on. Why waste tax payers money keeping this scumbag in prison? If the law could guarantee he would be in there till the day he dies I would possibly agree but it can't guarantee it. Even then, as proven in the above story, you cannot assure victims safety. So remove the threat. Simple.

9Harry Roberts Empty Re: Harry Roberts on Thu Oct 23 2014, 11:38

Guest


Guest
I get what you're saying, 58 and I can't even start to imagine how terrible it must be for your wife and her sister and they have my utmost sympathy.

I honestly don't know what I'd do in your shoes if it was my wife at risk.

Life should mean life in certain circumstances and if this guy was deemed to still pose a threat to your wife if he were to be released, he'd be a strong candidate for never seeing daylight again in my book.

I just don't think that the state killing people is the answer.

And going back to RT's point, without a confession, there's always the chance that the perpetrator has been wrongly convicted but with a custodial sentence, at least he can try and appeal.

If you've already executed him but it subsequently comes to light that he was innocent, what then....?

10Harry Roberts Empty Re: Harry Roberts on Thu Oct 23 2014, 12:04

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
If you disagree with the death penalty, but recognise that putting someone up full board in a hotel for life is a financial penalty that society shouldn't have to pay, what are the alternatives?

There are no jobs for prisoners so how can they be productive now that mailbags and broken rocks are less in demand?

Surely we could get prisoners to pay for themselves and for new prisons by reinstating the "hard labour" sentence? If prisoners had to do even a basic 40 hour working week we could tap into the huge labour potential and focus on products that the UK can export.

Give the prisoners a skill/trade at the same time to help them reintegrate into society if they are ever released.

Productivity could become a parole criterion.

In this way prisoners could genuinely "repay their debt to society" and at least some benefit would come out of this appalling situation.

Moreover, taxpayers will be better off as the money saved could be used for schools, hospitals, services etc to improve our lives.

11Harry Roberts Empty Re: Harry Roberts on Thu Oct 23 2014, 12:07

Reebok Trotter

Reebok Trotter
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Breadman wrote:I get what you're saying, 58 and I can't even start to imagine how terrible it must be for your wife and her sister and they have my utmost sympathy.

I honestly don't know what I'd do in your shoes if it was my wife at risk.

Life should mean life in certain circumstances and if this guy was deemed to still pose a threat to your wife if he were to be released, he'd be a strong candidate for never seeing daylight again in my book.

I just don't think that the state killing people is the answer.

And going back to RT's point, without a confession, there's always the chance that the perpetrator has been wrongly convicted but with a custodial sentence, at least he can try and appeal.

If you've already executed him but it subsequently comes to light that he was innocent, what then....?

I take on board what you say Breaders but the days of beating a confession out of a suspect has long gone. The Police and Criminal Evidence Act completely reformed the way the Police were able to operate. Modern advances in science like the discovery of DNA etc have made it much easier for juries to make an informed opinion.
I am happy for life to mean life and I am sure most of the general public feel the same. If there was a referendum on bringing back the death penalty then I think the majority of us would vote for it. Of course there would have to be stringent checks and balances in place to ensure justice prevails.

12Harry Roberts Empty Re: Harry Roberts on Thu Oct 23 2014, 12:31

Guest


Guest
Not convinced, RT.

Sorry to bang on about this again, but given the caliber of some of the clowns I did jury service with last year, I wouldn't want my life in their hands.

We had one 18 year old empty-headed bint arguing that it was perfectly reasonable to accept the defence counsel's assertion that a profoundly deaf 8 year old Pakistani girl who couldn't speak and who was living in abject poverty in a small village in the hills would have actively sought out a 30 year old man in a neighbouring house and propositioned him for sex.

Yes - 8 yrs old, disabled, can't speak and yet sexually promiscuous......

It took us two days to finally convince her that it was utter bollocks and she kept saying "It could have happened and why would the defence barrister lie?"

Honestly, they should bring in an IQ test for jurors and interview people before letting 'em loose......

13Harry Roberts Empty Re: Harry Roberts on Thu Oct 23 2014, 13:03

Bwfc1958

Bwfc1958
Tinned Toms - You know it makes sense!
On this point I have to agree breaders. My sister in law did jury duty earlier this year. Now, she herself is no bright spark if I'm being honest. Then there was an 18 year old drug dealer on the jury. He was heard saying how he was going to "sort someone out" for not paying him on time because he had given drugs out on tick. They were jurors on the case of a school teacher accused of sexual abuse. Very important for the victims and defendant respectively. The least they could do is appoint jurors that have at least a couple of brain cells between them but apparently it is totally random picking jurors. Amazing really

14Harry Roberts Empty Re: Harry Roberts on Thu Oct 23 2014, 13:19

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Critical reasoning/verbal comprehension are widely tested in the management job market so it would be easy to introduce testing.

I just don't think that there is a will to ensure that juror's understand the nuances of the evidence and have the capacity to process it objectively.

Perhaps this is because jury service would then fall upon a very small proportion of society which would be unworkable as well as potentially unethical.

As demonstrated in the UK, stupid people are allowed to vote so why not let them decide people's fate as well?

15Harry Roberts Empty Re: Harry Roberts on Thu Oct 23 2014, 13:29

Guest


Guest
The judge said to us something along the lines of "Base your decisions and conclusions on the evidence presented but remember to draw on your own personal life experience to add colour to the picture because context and circumstance are both relevant when forming a bigger picture."

What "life experience" have you got at 18?

We had one "expert" witness from the Home Office who personally guaranteed that every single person passing through Heathrow for the last twenty years has had their passport thoroughly scrutinized and there was absolutely no chance that anyone could have entered the country on a false passport.

A couple of us in the box received stern looks from the judge for our stifled laughter.

And yet one kid, (a different one this time) said "It must be true otherwise he wouldn't have sworn on the bible....."

Honestly, that whole experience has shaken my faith in the jury system.

16Harry Roberts Empty Re: Harry Roberts on Thu Oct 23 2014, 17:36

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
I'm old enough to remember the killing of the three policemen - the whole country was in shock at the time.

I believe fwiw that not everything should be equal.  What I mean is that if someone is killed that the killer should be treated the same no matter who he had killed - I don't think that is right (although in does seeem to be a resonable view).

I think crimes against people trying to uphold law and order (and probably against children too) -  let's face it would be anarchy without them - should be dealt with more strongly than other crimes.

It's no coincidence that terrorist groups in many countrys target the police and armed forces specifically in an attempt to break down society and scare people from standing up against them - look at how the Syrian army ran away allowing Mosel to fall for example.

When I was younger I too didn't believe in the death penalty, it probably isn't a deterent but as I got older and more cynical I changed my views to something amounting to what is the point in keeping someone like Roberts locked up for 48 years - what value is it to society, would the cost of keeping him and others like Brady, Huntley, the bloke who chopped the soldiers head off in London recently, Sutcliffe, etc, be better off spent elsewhere like a new hospital or school perhaps?

I'm sure the fathers of the murdered policemen, or the mothers of the killed children, etc, would happily push the button or flick the switch in order to send these monsters to their graves.

I'm probably in a minority but I simple don't believe that inherently evil people change no matter how many years they spend locked away from society - so what's the point of giving them free food and shelter for the next 30, 40, 50 years or so?

May as well accept the inevitable and draw a line under that persons existence sooner rather than later.

17Harry Roberts Empty Re: Harry Roberts on Thu Oct 23 2014, 18:56

Reebok Trotter

Reebok Trotter
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Sluffy wrote:

I'm probably in a minority but I simple don't believe that inherently evil people change no matter how many years they spend locked away from society - so what's the point of giving them free food and shelter for the next 30, 40, 50 years or so?



I don't think you are in the minority. I think most people probably share your viewpoint.

18Harry Roberts Empty Re: Harry Roberts on Thu Oct 23 2014, 20:23

Copper Dragon

Copper Dragon
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Does anyone remember the sick chant  about this episode from football fans up and down the country?

19Harry Roberts Empty Re: Harry Roberts on Thu Oct 23 2014, 20:26

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Copper Dragon wrote:Does anyone remember the sick chant  about this episode from football fans up and down the country?
Did it start 'Harry Roberts is our friend.......'?

20Harry Roberts Empty Re: Harry Roberts on Thu Oct 23 2014, 20:28

Copper Dragon

Copper Dragon
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Yes it did Bonce.  Evil or Very Mad

21Harry Roberts Empty Re: Harry Roberts on Thu Oct 23 2014, 21:00

Guest


Guest
That got re-cycled in the 80's with Winston Silcott replacing Harry Roberts.

22Harry Roberts Empty Re: Harry Roberts on Thu Oct 23 2014, 21:05

Banks of the Croal


Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
Roberts was eventually caught in Bolton ? just also read, he was caught somewhere else.

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/1096263.0/?act=complaint&cid=33767



Last edited by Banks of the Croal on Thu Oct 23 2014, 21:41; edited 1 time in total

23Harry Roberts Empty Re: Harry Roberts on Thu Oct 23 2014, 21:11

Reebok Trotter

Reebok Trotter
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
That bastard from Farnworth who killed that young copper John Egerton who caught him breaking into a scrap metal yard should have got a permanent life tariff as well.

24Harry Roberts Empty Re: Harry Roberts on Thu Oct 23 2014, 21:47

Copper Dragon

Copper Dragon
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Around the same sort of time some football fans used to sing about Aberfan as well when one of the Welsh sides turned out.

Fucking awful human beings.  Sad

25Harry Roberts Empty Re: Harry Roberts on Thu Oct 23 2014, 22:03

Guest


Guest
It seems utterly bizarre now to think that I actually saw blokes throwing bananas on the pitch at black players and singing "Zigger Zagger Zigger (etc)" as recently as 25 years ago at Burnden.

And nobody batted an eyelid.

Sky have ruined football in this country but in other areas we've definitely moved on for the better.

26Harry Roberts Empty Re: Harry Roberts on Thu Oct 23 2014, 22:07

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Clyde Best used to get a lot of stick.
Remember a banana being thrown at him at Upton Park.

27Harry Roberts Empty Re: Harry Roberts on Sun Oct 26 2014, 08:19

rammywhite

rammywhite
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
Breadman wrote:
@Bwfc1958 wrote:If you take a life you should give your own IMO. If we had the death penalty shit like this wouldn't be happening would it because he'd be dead. My partners sister got stabbed 82 times by her ex after she left him. He got 18 & a half years minimum. Not even close to being enough but One day he'll be out and she lives in fear as he's threatened her as well. Death penalty for these evil bastards would mean people could sleep that little easier knowing their life is not under threat


Sorry, can't agree.

The death penalty doesn't deter people from committing violent crime - if it did, nobody would ever be murdered in those US states that still have it on their statute books but they're still dying in their thousands.

I have a strong moral objection to the death penalty in principle, as it all seems a bit "Old Testament" to me and I don't think any society can call itself civilised if it uses it.

And the logic has always seemed flawed to me:

You kill someone - Bad thing obviously.

You're tried in a court of law - Fine so far.

You're found guilty - Ok.

You're sentenced to death - Er.....hang on.

Isn't that why you're on trial in the first place?

You know, killing someone......?

Doesn't stack up for me.

Bredders is correct here. The argument goes beyond whether juries are efficient, get things right- we all know that they don't ,that they'll make mistakes from time to time.
The real argument is about the extent to which we ,as a society, can take rights to ourselves. I don't think that ,as a civilised society, we can take to ourselves the right to kill people-apart from self defence or in times of war.
Take murder, killing someone, as an example. We all regard that as  a horrific, heinous crime, something detestable that cannot be allowed to happen without serious punishment.
And the punishment that we want to inflict is exactly the same- we'll kill someone.
It seems that its utterly unacceptable for one person to kill another- but its fine if we gang together and kill that person. I  know its called 'the law' but there has to be boundaries around what we can do collectively.
We have every right to protect ourselves by jailing someone for life as a means of protecting ourselves from sick dangerous people, but I would argue that there is a mark in the sand that, as moral, civilised people we should not go beyond, and for me that  prevents us from formally killing people.
The death penalty is immoral and degrades us as human beings. It puts us at the same level as the killer- we collectively become killers too.

28Harry Roberts Empty Re: Harry Roberts on Sun Oct 26 2014, 09:53

Bwfc1958

Bwfc1958
Tinned Toms - You know it makes sense!
You are entitled to your opinion rammy but I wonder how different that opinion would be if you had experienced what my family went through in 2008. He not only admitted what he had done he was proud of what he had done. There was no jury involved. This guy asked people how long they thought he would get for killing my sister in law. The plans were in motion for the murder he was going to commit well in advance of carrying out his threat. It later came out in the police interviews that it was my partner he was going to murder but thought it would hurt her more if he killed her sister instead. He then went round when he knew she was alone and stabbed her 82 times. He did this in front of her 2 young sons. One was 2 years old and the other was almost 4. They witnessed their mother being butchered on their own living room floor. The handle broke off the knife while he was doing it so he just carried on holding just the blade. The only reason he stopped is because it was hurting his own hand. He then grabbed the kids and marched them 2 miles to his mothers house and left them there and fled. They had the blood of their mum on their coats. That is how close they were to what happened. The aforementioned children - my nephews, were put in foster care and subsequently adopted and we have never seen them since. We tried for custody but because of what those poor children had witnessed the authorities were afraid they would have issues and could not trust them around our own child who at the time was 2 years old. We will hope this guy never sees the light of day again but that is not how it works these days is it. He has again threatened the life of people close to me. Why should we live in fear? Executing this murdering scumbag would mean safety not just for my family but for the general public as a whole. If he got the death penalty he would be killed in a much more humane way than he would ever deserve. Instead he sits there with nothing but time to think about how he is going to kill more of my family. There is no such thing as rehabilitation for people like this. All they are doing is spending years and years with like minded scum bragging about who committed the most horrific killing. The worst part of it is that it is us, the law abiding good people of this country who are paying to keep them full board in what is, let's face it, a full board hotel. It would not make us murderers on a par with this man. It would make us protectors of communities and families just like yours, mine and everyone else. People have said in previous posts that the death penalty would not deter monsters from committing these horrific acts of violence. What if, when he asked people how long he would get for this murder, they told him he would be executed, he would have changed his mind. I suppose we will never know, but he asked the question so it was obviously a factor for him. Sorry for waffling so much but it is a subject that holds significant importance for me and my family and had to get that off my chest

29Harry Roberts Empty Re: Harry Roberts on Sun Oct 26 2014, 10:19

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
Evil - beyond words.

RIP

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/7908338.stm



My heart goes out to you and your family BWFC1958.

30Harry Roberts Empty Re: Harry Roberts on Sun Oct 26 2014, 10:34

Bwfc1958

Bwfc1958
Tinned Toms - You know it makes sense!
Cheers sluffy I appreciate that but I would also like to say that it's not sympathy I'm after. I just wanted to point out that wanting the death penalty for people like this does not, and never will, put me on a par with them. It's easy to say from the outside, that it is wrong. Especially when to others it is just another news story. Another statistic. It isn't. It is mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, sons and daughters whose life will never be the same again. To have something so precious taken away in this manner is something you can never understand unless it happens to you and I truly hope none of you ever get to find out

Back to top  Message [Page 1 of 2]

Go to page : 1, 2  Next

Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum