Do you HAVE to make a sub if you're losing?

We're 1-0 down. Half an hour still to play. The crowd's getting restless, and so starts the chanting, "Lennon, make a sub, Lennon, Lennon, make a sub".

Here's the thing. We were already playing really well!

I don't just mean better than usual. I mean we looked well and truly capable of winning the match 2-1. We were dominating possession in the right areas and the chances were falling for us.

It just makes me wonder, is there a conception that to stand a chance of turning a match round, you just have to make substitutions? And if so, is that just fair enough?

It also makes me wonder - especially reading the forums, listening to post match radio talk shows etc - do people make a point of expecting Lennon to make a sub early on so that if he doesn't and we still lose, it's an easy stick to poke him with?

You use your subs when you think it is best for your team.

If you go 1-0 after a minute you don't make a substitution and if you losing 3-0 with 20 minutes to go you probably do make substitutions (either to chase the game or bring off key players to save them from a booking, an injury or simply try to keep them fresher for the next game if you've given up on this one).

Lennon seems to bring on subs very late even when we are trailing in games and the fans have picked up on that and are becoming critical of it and are now demanding early changes.

If we were winning no one would even mention it but because we aren't it has in some peoples mind become one of the 'big' problems with Lennon's management abilities.

Substitutions are a big part of the game and can and do influence outcomes.

A good manager uses them to his advantage.

I don't unfortunately view Lennon as a good manager as he clearly isn't improving achievement from the squad at his disposal over the course of this season.

No you don't have to use your subs, and you'll know better than most on here as you were actually at the game. But my view was, losing at home in a must win game against a slow Mick McCarthy side who like nothing more than defending a 1-0 lead you have to get some pace on to beat a man. So for me Silva should have been on 15 minutes earlier - actually I'd start him every game purely for the fact he can produce a bit of quality the others can't.

i must have watched a different game Doffy because for me we were poor again. Hopeless in midfield and constantly giving it away too easily and barely a goal threat upfront as we had no natural centre forward.

Lennons changes are always too late, the crowd in the East Lower have had enough now and were chanting you don't know what you're doing when Silva came on when injury time started. He had a great impact in only a couple of minutes, imagine what he could have down if he came on with 20-25 minutes left?

Strange taking off Trotter as well as he was doing ok, it should have been Pratley as again he was woeful.

bwfc1874 wrote:No you don't have to use your subs, and you'll know better than most on here as you were actually at the game. But my view was, losing at home in a must win game against a slow Mick McCarthy side who like nothing more than defending a 1-0 lead you have to get some pace on to beat a man. So for me Silva should have been on 15 minutes earlier - actually I'd start him every game purely for the fact he can produce a bit of quality the others can't.

This. 

Norpig wrote:i must have watched a different game Doffy because for me we were poor again. Hopeless in midfield and constantly giving it away too easily and barely a goal threat upfront as we had no natural centre forward.

Lennons changes are always too late, the crowd in the East Lower have had enough now and were chanting you don't know what you're doing when Silva came on when injury time started. He had a great impact in only a couple of minutes, imagine what he could have down if he came on with 20-25 minutes left?

Strange taking off Trotter as well as he was doing ok, it should have been Pratley as again he was woeful.

Pratley should have scored to put us 1-0 up and that would have been a nice cushion. I'm glad to see Wilson is back. I have been impressed with his workrate in the games I have seen him play.

Completely agree about Silva.

But for the sake of argument, let's say he started as he should have done. And we're still losing. Hard to imagine when he's come on and made that big an impact in such a short space of time. But believe me, it has happened where Silva has played and we find ourselves in a losing position and the general talk has been "why's he not making a fuckin sub? we're losing in case you hadn't noticed Neil!"

Not necessarily "get Woolery on" or "get Pratley off". Half the time, it's as though people want him to just do something, not necessarily because there's something he can do that's blatantly gonna make a difference for the better.

Lennon stated Silva wasn't good enough in training and that's the heart of the matter.
Subs are an option if it's not going well but only if the manager believes they will improve our chances on the pitch. If we were in the ascendancy and Lennon didn't rate the options available to him  or wanted to show more faith in those already on, then it's understandable that he didn't make an early sub.
And TBF he sees them every day in training so he has to be in the best position to make that call.

If a manager thinks a player can make an impact in 7 minutes of extra time, why doesn't he put him on for the first 10 minutes, and after he's put us 1-0 up, take him off, and let the 'usual' team play on from there.
Having said that, sometimes a change, any change, helps a team, regardless of the position of the player, as long as they do something to make an impact. When stuck in a rut, any hard running player will make a difference.

I am still a Lennon supporter but I admit this is one aspect I agree with most on.  Other managers in the past have been slow to bring subs on and I can never understand it....depending on the situation of course.
To have Clough and Feeny upfront is always going to be lightweight in any game. Just not strong enough against your typical center half.  Clough is not the same player from last season to begin with.

Years back Utd went 2-0 nothing down after 15 minutes .....Fergie brought on all three subs after 20 minutes.....changed the whole look of the team .....they won it naturally. Realize your game plan is not working and change it asap.  That's all.

terenceanne wrote:

Years back Utd went 2-0 nothing down after 15 minutes .....Fergie brought on all three subs after 20 minutes.....changed the whole look of the team .....they won it naturally. Realize your game plan is not working and change it asap.  That's all.

You can only do that when you have high quality players to call upon.

No, if the game is running away from you, change something, and build on that.

gloswhite wrote:No, if the game is running away from you, change something, and build on that.

Replacing shit with shit doesn't produce any other result.

Boggersbelief wrote:

gloswhite wrote:No, if the game is running away from you, change something, and build on that.

Replacing shit with shit doesn't produce any other result.

But surely thats just giving up. Isn't it better to at least try something?

finlaymcdanger wrote:

Boggersbelief wrote:

gloswhite wrote:No, if the game is running away from you, change something, and build on that.

Replacing shit with shit doesn't produce any other result.

But surely thats just giving up. Isn't it better to at least try something?

Correct you are finlay ....
Just bringing fresh legs on sometimes make a difference. Week in week out you see teams lose a goal at the end of the game ...due to simply that the players are tired. So just using your subs wisely to me is a no brainer .....I would use all 14 players in most games.....always been a soap box issue for me this one.

Boggersbelief wrote:

terenceanne wrote:

Years back Utd went 2-0 nothing down after 15 minutes .....Fergie brought on all three subs after 20 minutes.....changed the whole look of the team .....they won it naturally. Realize your game plan is not working and change it asap.  That's all.

You can only do that when you have high quality players to call upon.

Brilliant   the comparison is striking, the greatest manager of all time and one of the most winningest clubs in football history... and Bolton.

Just a bit of devil's advocate.

Silva comes on for 5 minutes against Ipswich, makes a massive impact. He comes on today for half an hour, does absolutely fuck all.