Teachers

Maybe a bit controversial this. Every year the teaching unions (there are more than one of them) have their annual meeting over the Easter weekend and every year they act like the kids who they are supposed to be educating. Yet again they 'demand' this and that and then threaten 'industrial' action. That amounts to not turning up to work for a couple of days, giving kids time off but seriously inconveniencing parents. They lose some of their wages and that money stays with local authorities but they've got to cover the lost teaching material anyway later on.
 
Are the ones who turn up just a bunch of left wing losers- or would you take them seriously. Personally I find them with their threats and demands simply inconsequential.

What do you think about them?
PS Apologies to any of you who are, or are married to, teachers- this isn't personal

One thing they are right about is their opposition to Morgan's insane plan to make all schools academies. Even Tory MPs and Tory councils realise this is a deeply stupid political dogma idea.

Briefly although some academies turn around failing schools equally as many take over successful schools and turn them into failing schools because guess what - the owners are only interested in making money from them. Plus the larger chains are remote from local people and suffer from exactly the same inefficiencies as the local authorities are supposed to.

Just listened to Nicky Morgan (the education secretary) get booed and heckled by the teachers at the NASUWT conference. To me they sounded like a bunch of yobs.
They had Corbyn along yesterday and they gave that clown a standing ovation for spouting his usual rabble rousing nonsense. I hope this shower aren't representative of the teaching 'profession'  (which it isn't!) as a whole. They make me want to vote Tory!!

What's your opinion on the imposition of academies?

bwfc1874 wrote:What's your opinion on the imposition of academies?

Not really sure and it's difficult to get dispassionate ,neutral view of them. I've neither kids nor grand kids in school and I'm not a schoolteacher myself- but I'm involved in teaching at tertiary level.
But in trying to form an opinion I won't listen to politicians of any hue nor politically belligerent teachers. it would be good to get the views of unbiased educationalists who can bring rationale arguments to the table

It smacks of privatisation of the education sector via the back door to me.

We all know that the Tories love privatising things with their staunch belief that the free market delivers a better service (even though that's bollocks and even they don't really believe it and only do it to provide an opportunity for their mates to make a few bob) and this feels the same.

They've done it with prisons, they're doing it with the NHS and now they're trying it with schools.

And I think it's dangerous.

Because when profit comes before quality of service, you're in bother.

rammywhite wrote:

bwfc1874 wrote:What's your opinion on the imposition of academies?

Not really sure and it's difficult to get dispassionate ,neutral view of them. I've neither kids nor grand kids in school and I'm not a schoolteacher myself- but I'm involved in teaching at tertiary level.
But in trying to form an opinion I won't listen to politicians of any hue nor politically belligerent teachers. it would be good to get the views of unbiased educationalists who can bring rationale arguments to the table

The teachers are unbiased educationalists though? The fact you don't like their collective opinion doesn't change that.

bwfc1874 wrote:

rammywhite wrote:

bwfc1874 wrote:What's your opinion on the imposition of academies?

Not really sure and it's difficult to get dispassionate ,neutral view of them. I've neither kids nor grand kids in school and I'm not a schoolteacher myself- but I'm involved in teaching at tertiary level.
But in trying to form an opinion I won't listen to politicians of any hue nor politically belligerent teachers. it would be good to get the views of unbiased educationalists who can bring rationale arguments to the table

The teachers are unbiased educationalists though? The fact you don't like their collective opinion doesn't change that.

I don't think they're unbiased though. It's like saying that you're an unbiased football supporters when clearly your allegiance is to the Wanderers.
They'll naturally oppose anything that government (particularly Tory government ) proposes. They'll want the status quo to be maintained as they can manipulate it to some degree to maintain their bargaining position. Change the system radically and you'll change the balance of power.
I'd still rather hear from experienced educationalists who can take a more balanced view.

It's not just NASUWT and NUT who oppose the change, it's teachers as a whole - many of which aren't a member of either Union and if you know people who work in these academies it's easy to see why. Understaffed, too great a reliance on trainees, an incredibly rigid approach to all stages of planning and constant pressure to assess children of all ages - proven to be a negative factor in learning, but when you have big academy groups head office need a way of tracking performance.

Then Nicky Morgan stands at the front of the meeting and tells teachers they should be more positive and it's their fault there's low take up of teaching jobs. No wonder she got heckled.

At the end of the day the people best placed to make this judgement are those that do the job, you seem to be condemning teachers for opposing the governments policy, with little understanding of the effect the policy has. Do you think your prejudging the Union based on your own views?

bwfc1874 wrote:It's not just NASUWT and NUT who oppose the change, it's teachers as a whole - many of which aren't a member of either Union and if you know people who work in these academies it's easy to see why. Understaffed, too great a reliance on trainees, an incredibly rigid approach to all stages of planning and a constant 

Then Nicky Morgan stands at the front of the meeting and tells teachers they should be more positive and it's their fault there's low take up of teaching jobs. No wonder she got heckled.

At the end of the day the people best placed to make this judgement are those that do the job, you seem to be condemning teachers for opposing the governments policy, with little understanding of the effect the policy has. Do you think your prejudging the Union based on your own views?

I'm neither for nor agin academies as I don't know enough about them to form a judgement.
What amuses me is the year in year out calls for strike action by people who should have more intelligence. A hundred years of labour history shows that strikes are a blunt instrument- they achieve nothing. In the century before last ,with the great dockers strike,and the match girls strike they brought the employers to their knees-but its just a blunt instrument nowadays and achieves nothing. Look at the miners strike under Scargill- that just helped finish off the coal industry. Has the junior doctors strike achieved anything? No-and further action won't either.
If teachers feel that they have a real grievance then they need to do something better than pass silly motions saying that they'll withdraw their labour for a couple of days. It's impotent. They need to do something much more constructive than something as ineffective as closing schools for a couple of days and seriously inconveniencing parents- the ONLY people who would be in any way be affected by a strike.
Nicky Morgan said much more about teaching  and education than just academies-which might or might not happen as so much that this and every other government says will happen ( remember social housing starts,immigration figures,flood defence spending) - yet the atmosphere in the Hall was immediately and pervadingly hostile. It seems to me that the person who is making major decisions (in this case the Minister for Education) is not someone you spit on (metaphorically) as  soon as you set eyes on her,but listen to,form a relationship with and try and negotiate effective changes through conversation and co-operation. Yet again with the teachers all there is, as all there ever is, is confrontation. As educationalists they  must be aware of the impact of learning, but that's something that they themselves seem incapable of understanding when it cones to affecting change and developing policy
It'll be the same tomorrow when their Conference finishes- more calls for 'industrial 'action and strikes. It all reminds me of student union politics in my university days. It'll be repetitive ,predictable and a waste of everyone's time as it will achieve precisely nothing.
It's not just my feelings- it's about medieval politics -an historical anachronism

I do think the only recourse in certain situations is to withdraw labour. I wonder, given the seriousness of this plan to make all schools 'Academies', we should go along the path of referendums. As Rammy said, to withdraw labour would punish the parents and the students. Lose a week these days in education and it's gone forever. Let the government put it in their manifesto pre next election. As far as Corbynski is concerned, Labour should have left well alone during Babs Catle's era. Let the professionals do the job and recommendations. Save a lot of tears that way. Of course, I'm biased as I am not allowed to strike.

rammywhite wrote:

bwfc1874 wrote:It's not just NASUWT and NUT who oppose the change, it's teachers as a whole - many of which aren't a member of either Union and if you know people who work in these academies it's easy to see why. Understaffed, too great a reliance on trainees, an incredibly rigid approach to all stages of planning and a constant 

Then Nicky Morgan stands at the front of the meeting and tells teachers they should be more positive and it's their fault there's low take up of teaching jobs. No wonder she got heckled.

At the end of the day the people best placed to make this judgement are those that do the job, you seem to be condemning teachers for opposing the governments policy, with little understanding of the effect the policy has. Do you think your prejudging the Union based on your own views?

I'm neither for nor agin academies as I don't know enough about them to form a judgement.
What amuses me is the year in year out calls for strike action by people who should have more intelligence. A hundred years of labour history shows that strikes are a blunt instrument- they achieve nothing. In the century before last ,with the great dockers strike,and the match girls strike they brought the employers to their knees-but its just a blunt instrument nowadays and achieves nothing. Look at the miners strike under Scargill- that just helped finish off the coal industry. Has the junior doctors strike achieved anything? No-and further action won't either.
If teachers feel that they have a real grievance then they need to do something better than pass silly motions saying that they'll withdraw their labour for a couple of days. It's impotent. They need to do something much more constructive than something as ineffective as closing schools for a couple of days and seriously inconveniencing parents- the ONLY people who would be in any way be affected by a strike.
Nicky Morgan said much more about teaching  and education than just academies-which might or might not happen as so much that this and every other government says will happen ( remember social housing starts,immigration figures,flood defence spending) - yet the atmosphere in the Hall was immediately and pervadingly hostile. It seems to me that the person who is making major decisions (in this case the Minister for Education) is not someone you spit on (metaphorically) as  soon as you set eyes on her,but listen to,form a relationship with and try and negotiate effective changes through conversation and co-operation. Yet again with the teachers all there is, as all there ever is, is confrontation. As educationalists they  must be aware of the impact of learning, but that's something that they themselves seem incapable of understanding when it cones to affecting change and developing policy
It'll be the same tomorrow when their Conference finishes- more calls for 'industrial 'action and strikes. It all reminds me of student union politics in my university days. It'll be repetitive ,predictable and a waste of everyone's time as it will achieve precisely nothing.
It's not just my feelings- it's about medieval politics -an historical anachronism

Fair enough Rammy, although I'd argue the reason so many strikes fail is because they are a last resort. The point of a strike is that it can't be ignored removing labour is the only thing that can put pressure on an employer (or whoever is concerned) to shift their position. 

If they don't strike, what can they do to force a negotiation?

Unfortunately the politicisation of the education system has been going on for years, which does of course play into the hands of the politicians, rather than the people it is supposed to help. Unfortunately, the putting of political, and personal, aims first, has reduced any serious planning of the most beneficial teaching methods/results, for the education, to the bottom of the list. The sad part is that the teachers, who have neither the skill nor power to confront the politicians and their backers on a fair footing, come across as a ragamuffin bunch who want nothing but to withdraw their labour. I still think a lot of them, the silent majority, still see their work as a calling rather than a career, and are just quietly hoping things work out.
I have no idea of the benefits or not of the Academies, but I do know that, having been involved in serious disputes when working for this government, they are a duplicitous, conniving bunch, who will do anything and everything to further their argument, including changing the law. (They're doing it with the junior doctors at the moment). Based on my experience with them, I would say that its all about money, eventually, to their benefit of course, and would say 'no' on principle.

Teachers have it easy. How many full-time jobs give you 13-14 weeks holiday every year?

They're always moaning about something, sack the fooking lot of 'em.

gloswhite wrote:Unfortunately the politicisation of the education system has been going on for years, which does of course play into the hands of the politicians, rather than the people it is supposed to help. Unfortunately, the putting of political, and personal, aims first, has reduced any serious planning of the most beneficial teaching methods/results, for the education, to the bottom of the list. The sad part is that the teachers, who have neither the skill nor power to confront the politicians and their backers on a fair footing, come across as a ragamuffin bunch who want nothing but to withdraw their labour. I still think a lot of them, the silent majority, still see their work as a calling rather than a career, and are just quietly hoping things work out.
I have no idea of the benefits or not of the Academies, but I do know that, having been involved in serious disputes when working for this government, they are a duplicitous, conniving bunch, who will do anything and everything to further their argument, including changing the law. (They're doing it with the junior doctors at the moment). Based on my experience with them, I would say that its all about money, eventually, to their benefit of course, and would say 'no' on principle.

Glos- I've never experienced a direct confrontation but I can see the evidence of what you are saying particularly with junior doctors. In my line of work we've had a 1% pay rise for each of the last six years and as I'm at the top of the scale there are no increments either- so I'm losing out. Luckily(or otherwise) I'm now of pensionable age and drawing both my state pension and 80% of my work pension -so I'm as well off as I've ever been.
We negotiate with vice-chancellors (who are grossly overpaid) but at least they are sympathetic as the vast majority have come up through the ranks and not been parachuted in as political appointments. Rather than strike (which for us is genuinely laughable) we've adopted the following tactics ,and generally been successful particularly as regards the salaries of junior members of staff who have got far higher rises than simply the 1% that the geriatrics like me have been offered
We've:
a) refused to mark exams and assessed assignments
b) refused to pass any marks on to administrators
c) refused to do references for students ( employers soon get on side about this)
d) refused to do admissions
e) refused to do sick cover
f) refused to attend admin meetings

.....plus lots of other minor irritations ,which added together creates rather a bad press and gets the negotiators to the table.
There are alternatives to strikes which are  much more effective

Teaching is an extremely time-consuming and stressful job, made worse by government's constant meddling. A succession of education ministers who themselves have no experience of teaching have pig-headedly refused to listen to the genuine concerns of dedicated professionals..... those at the sharp end. 

Instead, especially under Gove and now his puppet, Morgan, they have embarked on a campaign of public criticism, undermined morale and tried to sway public opinion quite grotesquely......in the same way that they have deliberately sought to devalue the work of others who genuinely care, for example doctors and social workers.

 All this is, of course, is to do with the government's prime objective to save money.
 Academies = privatisation through the back door with absolutely no proven benefits to the education of young people by staff who joined the profession because they genuinely care.

Marking, lesson planning, form-filling, report writing, meetings, counselling etc  at the end of an exhausting day in the classroom, all eat into evenings, weekends and holidays, often at the expense of teachers' own families. Constant changes to the curriculum result in new schemes of work to be devised, taking up massive amounts of time beyond the classroom where declining standards of behaviour drain teachers' energy. Most teachers work through the lunch break too, either on duty or running clubs, activities that continue after school as well. Yet the latest idea is that the school day should be lengthened! The effect on the children too would be exhausting.

Those making criticisms should actually try it:- most would not last a day!

I note that the meddling has gone as far as "experts" (!) telling teachers to use an array of different colours when writing lengthy advice on individuals' work.

The current discontent is a build-up of despair at having concerns ignored whilst being told to take on more and more tasks, a situation exacerbated by the fact that classes are now populated by pupils who speak no English.

It is time that ignorant ministers actually LISTENED to those who know and understand the issues in public services. Then they would not dig themselves into holes where they have to back down or face heckling and strike threats. Fancy going to a meeting, as Morgan did, to speak to members of a profession, having announced the day before that they will not be listened to! Good grief!

PS The closure of Sure-Start centres is a national disgrace! The under-privileged and vulnerable are being systematically ignored.....or worse!

rammywhite wrote:

gloswhite wrote:Unfortunately the politicisation of the education system has been going on for years, which does of course play into the hands of the politicians, rather than the people it is supposed to help. Unfortunately, the putting of political, and personal, aims first, has reduced any serious planning of the most beneficial teaching methods/results, for the education, to the bottom of the list. The sad part is that the teachers, who have neither the skill nor power to confront the politicians and their backers on a fair footing, come across as a ragamuffin bunch who want nothing but to withdraw their labour. I still think a lot of them, the silent majority, still see their work as a calling rather than a career, and are just quietly hoping things work out.
I have no idea of the benefits or not of the Academies, but I do know that, having been involved in serious disputes when working for this government, they are a duplicitous, conniving bunch, who will do anything and everything to further their argument, including changing the law. (They're doing it with the junior doctors at the moment). Based on my experience with them, I would say that its all about money, eventually, to their benefit of course, and would say 'no' on principle.

Glos- I've never experienced a direct confrontation but I can see the evidence of what you are saying particularly with junior doctors. In my line of work we've had a 1% pay rise for each of the last six years and as I'm at the top of the scale there are no increments either- so I'm losing out. Luckily(or otherwise) I'm now of pensionable age and drawing both my state pension and 80% of my work pension -so I'm as well off as I've ever been.
We negotiate with vice-chancellors (who are grossly overpaid) but at least they are sympathetic as the vast majority have come up through the ranks and not been parachuted in as political appointments. Rather than strike (which for us is genuinely laughable) we've adopted the following tactics ,and generally been successful particularly as regards the salaries of junior members of staff who have got far higher rises than simply the 1% that the geriatrics like me have been offered
We've:
a) refused to mark exams and assessed assignments
b) refused to pass any marks on to administrators
c) refused to do references for students ( employers soon get on side about this)
d) refused to do admissions
e) refused to do sick cover
f) refused to attend admin meetings

.....plus lots of other minor irritations ,which added together creates rather a bad press and gets the negotiators to the table.
There are alternatives to strikes which are  much more effective

Guessing you're a lecturer Rammy? I suppose the major difference in your version of striking is scale, you refusing to do the extra bits has a direct effect on the leadership team you're negotiating with. Teachers would be harming their students and more senior colleagues - most of which are on their side anyway - but doing nothing to effect the government.   Not to mention the fact there has to be publicity to put pressure on the government to act, so something as public and obvious as a strike has that effect.

okocha wrote:
Marking, lesson planning, form-filling, report writing, meetings, counselling etc  at the end of an exhausting day in the classroom, all eat into evenings, weekends and holidays, often at the expense of teachers' own families.

Like most jobs then. Except teachers get 13-14 weeks holiday.

Stop making excuses for them. If they don't like it they are free to walk away and try something else.

I used to think that, but my girlfriend started in September. She get's up at 5 every day comes home and works on lesson plans until 11.30pm most nights, has been forced to teach extra lessons on a subject she knows nothing about and gets little to no support as most of the teachers in the school are trainees - consequence of working for an academy.

So when Nicky Morgan has the audacity to tell NASUWT they should be more positive about their profession and it's their fault there's a low uptake of new teachers it's little surprise she got laughed at. Teaching's one of the most important professions in the country, they should be treated as such.

Late starts, early finish.
loads of time off, no weekends, or not a lot anyway.
It's just a perfect job.