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Northern Ireland - should we give it back to the Irish?

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Sluffy

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Admin
Seems there is a big falling out going on in Northern Ireland and sadly it is looking as the sides are once again lining up along religious lines.

On the face of it, it is a momentous economic balls up the 'combined' NI parliament has committed - basically it give subsidies to businesses to take up 'renewable' energy schemes (things like solar power, wind turbines, etc) but someone forgot to put a 'cap' on what could be claimed and for how long they could claim it - and consequently there is nothing to stop people burning away their renewable energy 24 hours a day 365 days a year - forever - and picking up massive subsidies for doing so - an eye watering BILLION pounds over the next twenty years alone it is calculated!!!

The current leader of the NI parliament is a protestant woman, who just happens to be the person responsible for the scheme before she got the top job.

Worse still it seems that a whistle-blower let her office know early on in the scheme about the abuse (one farmer was going to be paid £1 million for simply heating an empty shed for instance) but nothing was done about - indeed it seems the scheme was allowed to grow massively thereafter!

Instead of the leader falling on her sword (and presumably letting her deputy - a catholic take over) it seems that she and her party have done their utmost to cling on to power despite everything.

The deputy has now quit and says his party wont work with the protestant party and it seems inevitable that things are coming apart at the seams of the peace accord that has been in place for the last twenty years or so.

Apart from this billion being funded in the majority by us the English taxpayer in the main, it really doesn't look as the leaders of NI have really moved on in any way from their religious intolerance of each other.

People can say what they like but the honest truth is that Ireland has been artificially divided for nearly 100 years now and maybe now is the time to move on and let the Irish people to become one again (maybe Gibraltar to the Spanish and The Falkland Islands to the Argies too?).

What do you think?

Fabians Right Peg

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Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Self determination, it's up to the majority of those who live in these places to make a decision on their own future, if they decide they still want to be part of the UK then it is down to the government of the day to uphold that decision and protect the rights of it's citizens.

Soul Kitchen

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
If Henry VIII had kept Fagen under control then a lot of this shite would have been avoided!!
Allah Snackbar has a lot to answer for as well!!!
My mate told me a tale about a Rangers poster being put up in a classroom at Thornleigh when he attended and that went down well. Very Happy
You couldn't make it up.
God, I fooking hate religion and it's catalyst effect.

Sluffy

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Admin
Fabians Right Peg wrote:Self determination, it's up to the majority of those who live in these places to make a decision on their own future, if they decide they still want to be part of the UK then it is down to the government of the day to uphold that decision and protect the rights of it's citizens.

I hear what you say but we actually artificially partitioned the country in the first place to prevent this from happening!!!

Ireland would be a combined country now based on the majority of its people's wishes if we hadn't intervened.

And if you go further back in history the six counties wouldn't even have been majority protestant if we had not forcibly grabbed their land and allowed the Scottish protestant farmers to rule there.

I know we are where we are now - but so are places like Iraq and Syria, where we intervened against the populations wishes - and look at that mess!

Maybe there comes a time to say, sorry we got it wrong and let things revert back to their natural course.

We aren't talking about people wanting to take their country's back to how life was a thousand years ago and the protestant and catholic Irish get on just fine together away from NI, so maybe for the good of the majority it IS time to hand over authority for the province from London to Dublin?

Norpig

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Jussi Jääskeläinen
Jussi Jääskeläinen
There is no way the Protestant majority in NI will ever agree to a united Ireland, they see themselves as British and i can't see that changing anytime soon.

Soul Kitchen

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
The flying of the Union Jack/Israeli flags and conversely the Irish tricolour/Palestinian flags in the Belfast trouble areas still show feelings exist. Just hope the shit doesn't kick off again although things still go on hush hush.

rammywhite

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El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
Sluffy,

You put too much store into the religious angle here. Religion in Ireland now plays very little part in the ongoing political situation. Both sides of the divide use religion merely as a badge when it plays very little part in the political reality. The leaders of the DUP(and its allies) and Sinn Fein (and its allies) rarely if ever darken a church's door. Its simply a convenient label to stick on two sides of  the divide. The root cause is tribal. The south is celtic, the north is mainly Anglo-saxon and both hang on to ancient symbols to demonstrate their loyalty. One of these symbols is religion. The role religion plays in the ongoing political games is virtually zero 
One of the attractions of a United Ireland for the north is membership of the EU- and that will play a much bigger role in the fate of a united or dis-united Ireland than religion ever will.
Blaming religion  as a cause anywhere where something goes wrong, and where there is evidence of religious belief is too easy a bandwagon to jump on. A hundred years ago after the Easter rebellion and through the Irish civil war, religion played a part, but through the troubles of about 30 years ago in reality religion was absent. The basis was political  and that remains the problem.

The fact that the south is mainly (non practising) catholic and the north is mainly(non practising ) protestant is merely an historical accident and as such religious belief plays no part in the power politics that we are now seeing.

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
rammywhite wrote:Sluffy,

You put too much store into the religious angle here. Religion in Ireland now plays very little part in the ongoing political situation. Both sides of the divide use religion merely as a badge when it plays very little part in the political reality. The leaders of the DUP(and its allies) and Sinn Fein (and its allies) rarely if ever darken a church's door. Its simply a convenient label to stick on two sides of  the divide. The root cause is tribal. The south is celtic, the north is mainly Anglo-saxon and both hang on to ancient symbols to demonstrate their loyalty. One of these symbols is religion. The role religion plays in the ongoing political games is virtually zero 
One of the attractions of a United Ireland for the north is membership of the EU- and that will play a much bigger role in the fate of a united or dis-united Ireland than religion ever will.
Blaming religion  as a cause anywhere where something goes wrong, and where there is evidence of religious belief is too easy a bandwagon to jump on. A hundred years ago after the Easter rebellion and through the Irish civil war, religion played a part, but through the troubles of about 30 years ago in reality religion was absent. The basis was political  and that remains the problem.

The fact that the south is mainly (non practising) catholic and the north is mainly(non practising ) protestant is merely an historical accident and as such religious belief plays no part in the power politics that we are now seeing.
For the large part that is true, however I would add that religious discrimination in employment and opportunity is thought to be at the root of the economic and social divide that creates the lines of division.

rammywhite

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El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
Norpig wrote:There is no way the Protestant majority in NI will ever agree to a united Ireland, they see themselves as British and i can't see that changing anytime soon.

But the birth rate amongst the celtic ( nominally catholic) minority is growing quickly an probably in your lifetime you'll see a celtic voting majority in the north. If decisions are made through the ballot box then there is a likelihood that a vote for a United Ireland could happen.

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
rammywhite wrote:
Norpig wrote:There is no way the Protestant majority in NI will ever agree to a united Ireland, they see themselves as British and i can't see that changing anytime soon.

probably in your lifetime you'll see a celtic voting majority in the north. If decisions are made through the ballot box then there is a likelihood that a vote for a United Ireland could happen.
And that would be the appropriate and democratic time to hand over power and not before.

Sluffy

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Admin
wanderlust wrote:
rammywhite wrote:
Norpig wrote:There is no way the Protestant majority in NI will ever agree to a united Ireland, they see themselves as British and i can't see that changing anytime soon.

probably in your lifetime you'll see a celtic voting majority in the north. If decisions are made through the ballot box then there is a likelihood that a vote for a United Ireland could happen.

And that would be the appropriate and democratic time to hand over power and not before.

That would equate also to a time not so far in the future when an increasing Muslim birth rate overtakes a steadily declining non Muslim birth rate in England and a vote is held to replace the current system of law and order with Sharia Law.

It might be "appropriate and democratic" for the majority but totally unacceptable to the rest I would suspect!

:bomb:

Bread2.0

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Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Oh, FFS...... :facepalm:

Given that only about 4% of the UK's population describes itself as following Islam, I'm interested to hear you definition of "not so far in the future".

Sluffy

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Admin
Oh hello my personal troll has turned up again.

What a surprise!

Not really though is it, in fact it is SO predictable these days.



As for my previous post.

Did you miss my emoticon at the end of it?

The bomb?

The comment was illustrative, to invoke people to think about what the minority view to seminal change would be within their indigenous, historical community, becoming the minority within its own country.

But don't let that get in the way of your trolling crusade against me because I once didn't agree with you on something trivial on the internet.

Rolling Eyes

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
Sluffy wrote:
wanderlust wrote:
rammywhite wrote:
Norpig wrote:There is no way the Protestant majority in NI will ever agree to a united Ireland, they see themselves as British and i can't see that changing anytime soon.

probably in your lifetime you'll see a celtic voting majority in the north. If decisions are made through the ballot box then there is a likelihood that a vote for a United Ireland could happen.

And that would be the appropriate and democratic time to hand over power and not before.

That would equate also to a time not so far in the future when an increasing Muslim birth rate overtakes a steadily declining non Muslim birth rate in England and a vote is held to replace the current system of law and order with Sharia Law.

It might be "appropriate and democratic" for the majority but totally unacceptable to the rest I would suspect!

:bomb:

I thought exactly the same Sluffy. 
I see no reason why possession should be nine tenths of the law. 
If that's the case, it makes you wonder how long it will be before Spain or France becomes part of Britain, when the native population is forced out by the British immigrants.

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
Bread2.0 wrote:Oh, FFS...... :facepalm:

Given that only about 4% of the UK's population describes itself as following Islam, I'm interested to hear you definition of "not so far in the future".

Fair point, but do you think Islam is holding far more sway in our day-to-day lives than the supposed 4% would indicate ?

Bread2.0

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Andy Walker
Andy Walker
gloswhite wrote:
Bread2.0 wrote:Oh, FFS...... :facepalm:

Given that only about 4% of the UK's population describes itself as following Islam, I'm interested to hear you definition of "not so far in the future".

Fair point, but do you think Islam is holding far more sway in our day-to-day lives than the supposed 4% would indicate ?

Not really, no.

But if it is, it's because of the 0.0001% of Muslims in the world who seem intent on blowing shit up.

That makes the news.

And it skews things a bit and hands the initiative to the likes of Farage and his mob (coming soon to a certain football stadium dear to us all, by the way) and provides them with grist for their mill.

So no, I don't think we live in an "overly Muslimified" country, despite what the Daily Mail, The Express and certain right wing politicians would have us believe.

Bread2.0

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Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Sluffy wrote:

The comment was illustrative, to invoke people to think about what the minority view to seminal change would be within their indigenous, historical community, becoming the minority within its own country.

But don't let that get in the way of your trolling crusade against me because I once didn't agree with you on something trivial on the internet.

Rolling Eyes

I've read that through half a dozen times now and it still makes no sense.

I think I get your point but that was in spite of the syntax used rather than because of it.

Sluffy

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Admin
Bread2.0 wrote:
Sluffy wrote:

The comment was illustrative, to invoke people to think about what the minority view to seminal change would be within their indigenous, historical community, becoming the minority within its own country.

But don't let that get in the way of your trolling crusade against me because I once didn't agree with you on something trivial on the internet.

Rolling Eyes

I've read that through half a dozen times now and it still makes no sense.

I think I get your point but that was in spite of the syntax used rather than because of it.

Hahaha!

A classical troll diversion tactic - lets talk about the spelling or grammar so people forget I trolled in the first place.

Are you going to liken me to Hitler next?

Razz

Bread2.0

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Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Was he all about the numbers too?

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Sluffy wrote:
wanderlust wrote:
rammywhite wrote:
Norpig wrote:There is no way the Protestant majority in NI will ever agree to a united Ireland, they see themselves as British and i can't see that changing anytime soon.

probably in your lifetime you'll see a celtic voting majority in the north. If decisions are made through the ballot box then there is a likelihood that a vote for a United Ireland could happen.

And that would be the appropriate and democratic time to hand over power and not before.

That would equate also to a time not so far in the future when an increasing Muslim birth rate overtakes a steadily declining non Muslim birth rate in England and a vote is held to replace the current system of law and order with Sharia Law.

It might be "appropriate and democratic" for the majority but totally unacceptable to the rest I would suspect!

:bomb:

Even if there was a Muslim majority in the UK I doubt very much they would vote for Sharia law as they are mainly English born and bred with Western ideology and taste and the further into the future we go, the greater the English Muslim culture will be within the Muslim community.
But if there was a popular Muslim uprising at the ballot box and the majority did vote for Sharia surely as an Englishman you would support it in defence of our democratic rights?

Sluffy

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Admin
wanderlust wrote:
Sluffy wrote:
wanderlust wrote:
rammywhite wrote:
Norpig wrote:There is no way the Protestant majority in NI will ever agree to a united Ireland, they see themselves as British and i can't see that changing anytime soon.

probably in your lifetime you'll see a celtic voting majority in the north. If decisions are made through the ballot box then there is a likelihood that a vote for a United Ireland could happen.

And that would be the appropriate and democratic time to hand over power and not before.

That would equate also to a time not so far in the future when an increasing Muslim birth rate overtakes a steadily declining non Muslim birth rate in England and a vote is held to replace the current system of law and order with Sharia Law.

It might be "appropriate and democratic" for the majority but totally unacceptable to the rest I would suspect!

:bomb:

Even if there was a Muslim majority in the UK I doubt very much they would vote for Sharia law as they are mainly English born and bred with Western ideology and taste and the further into the future we go, the greater the English Muslim culture will be within the Muslim community.
But if there was a popular Muslim uprising at the ballot box and the majority did vote for Sharia surely as an Englishman you would support it in defence of our democratic rights?

True to form Lusty also turns up, fails to read a thread FULLY yet again, before posting something spurious and irrelevant!

See post 13 above.

Rolling Eyes

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Sluffy wrote:
wanderlust wrote:
Sluffy wrote:
wanderlust wrote:
rammywhite wrote:
Norpig wrote:There is no way the Protestant majority in NI will ever agree to a united Ireland, they see themselves as British and i can't see that changing anytime soon.

probably in your lifetime you'll see a celtic voting majority in the north. If decisions are made through the ballot box then there is a likelihood that a vote for a United Ireland could happen.

And that would be the appropriate and democratic time to hand over power and not before.

That would equate also to a time not so far in the future when an increasing Muslim birth rate overtakes a steadily declining non Muslim birth rate in England and a vote is held to replace the current system of law and order with Sharia Law.

It might be "appropriate and democratic" for the majority but totally unacceptable to the rest I would suspect!

:bomb:

Even if there was a Muslim majority in the UK I doubt very much they would vote for Sharia law as they are mainly English born and bred with Western ideology and taste and the further into the future we go, the greater the English Muslim culture will be within the Muslim community.
But if there was a popular Muslim uprising at the ballot box and the majority did vote for Sharia surely as an Englishman you would support it in defence of our democratic rights?

True to form Lusty also turns up, fails to read a thread FULLY yet again, before posting something spurious and irrelevant!

See post 13 above.

Rolling Eyes
I have absolutely no idea what you're on or on about. I thought the two points I made about the unliklihood of that vote and the defence of democracy are entirely valid additions to what has been contributed previously as nobody including you had made them earlier.
This is ostensibly a discussion but you are acting like a child IMO.

Sluffy

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Admin
wanderlust wrote:
Sluffy wrote:
wanderlust wrote:
Sluffy wrote:
wanderlust wrote:
rammywhite wrote:
Norpig wrote:There is no way the Protestant majority in NI will ever agree to a united Ireland, they see themselves as British and i can't see that changing anytime soon.

probably in your lifetime you'll see a celtic voting majority in the north. If decisions are made through the ballot box then there is a likelihood that a vote for a United Ireland could happen.

And that would be the appropriate and democratic time to hand over power and not before.

That would equate also to a time not so far in the future when an increasing Muslim birth rate overtakes a steadily declining non Muslim birth rate in England and a vote is held to replace the current system of law and order with Sharia Law.

It might be "appropriate and democratic" for the majority but totally unacceptable to the rest I would suspect!

:bomb:

Even if there was a Muslim majority in the UK I doubt very much they would vote for Sharia law as they are mainly English born and bred with Western ideology and taste and the further into the future we go, the greater the English Muslim culture will be within the Muslim community.
But if there was a popular Muslim uprising at the ballot box and the majority did vote for Sharia surely as an Englishman you would support it in defence of our democratic rights?

True to form Lusty also turns up, fails to read a thread FULLY yet again, before posting something spurious and irrelevant!

See post 13 above.

Rolling Eyes
I have absolutely no idea what you're on or on about. I thought the two points I made about the unliklihood of that vote and the defence of democracy are entirely valid additions to what has been contributed previously as nobody including you had made them earlier.
This is ostensibly a discussion but you are acting like a child IMO.

So you want an answer from me over something that is unlikely to occur in our lifetimes and would happen in a completely different socio-economic environment than you or I could possibly envisage and because I've said you once again have missed the point, that I am acting like a child!

If you say so.

Rolling Eyes

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Why does sluffy get a personal troll and I don't? I'm far more important.

Norpig

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Jussi Jääskeläinen
Jussi Jääskeläinen
i  would like to formally apply for the job Nat, please send me an application and i will return after i've wiped my arse on it

Boggersbelief

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Norpig wrote:i  would like to formally apply for the job Nat, please send me an application and i will return after i've wiped my arse on it
You don't need to apply, youre the perfect man for the job

Bread2.0

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Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Boggersbelief wrote:

You don't need to apply, youre the perfect man for the job


Ooooh......so close!

Norpig

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Jussi Jääskeläinen
Jussi Jääskeläinen
Boggersbelief wrote:
Norpig wrote:i  would like to formally apply for the job Nat, please send me an application and i will return after i've wiped my arse on it
You don't need to apply, youre the perfect man for the job
i'd certainly be a better candidate than you Boggers i'm better than you in all departments, i know it stings but just get used to it and try and move on

Boggersbelief

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Bread2.0 wrote:
Boggersbelief wrote:

You don't need to apply, youre the perfect man for the job


Ooooh......so close!

How sad are you Very Happy

Bread2.0

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Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Is that a question?

Sorry to ask but the new rule about sticking an emoji on the end of a question to stop it being a question has left me confused.

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