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Brexit negotiations

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91 Re: Brexit negotiations on Thu Aug 03 2017, 23:09

JAH

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Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
gloswhite wrote:XM, whereas I can see your desire to have us chained to a lumbering, unelected, and some say doomed, entity, have you not considered that they are not the be all and end all of world trade and politics? Just because we are neighbours, doesn't mean we have to follow slavishly, the same ideals and political views as the EU. its fairly well known, that we had very little voice in any major decisions for the past few years anyway. They have our money, and our commitments, but tend not to entertain our views or ideals. 
Tell me, in a couple of sentences, leaving out the supposed financial benefits/drawbacks, how it is better for us in the EU ?

EASY TRAVEL
LIVING ABROAD
EQUAL PAY & NON-DISCRIMINATION
PAID LEAVE
FOREIGN STUDY
CHEAP FLIGHTS
CHEAP TELEPHONE CALLS
CONSUMER PROTECTION
FOOD LABELLING
CLEAN RIVERS AND CLEAN AIR

92 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Aug 04 2017, 11:28

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Perhaps the biggest advantage of being a member of a regional trading bloc apart from the tariff - free trade is perhaps the stability it provided our economy which propped up the value of the pound - because that directly impacts the three things that people are entirely dependent on - wages, investment in services and the cost of living.
Confidence in the economy is everything and it's clear that the referendum vote totally undermined everything we had achieved given the substantial devaluation of the pound and the rise of foreign investors snapping up cheap British stocks as reported in FTSE trading since.
Because it's about confidence, the markets don't have to wait until we actually leave the EU - they are responding to the decision now.
Whichever way you stack it up, we have voted for a poorer standard of living because regardless of what may happen in the negotiations - and they aren't looking at all promising - if the world doesn't believe it was a good decision, we get hammered and we'll all be poorer for it, especially when on top of all that we face an additional bill of £billions to set up and run the systems of governance and legislation we were previously getting from the EU.
IMO our biggest loss in leaving the EU is international confidence in Britain - and nobody other than British Brexiteers think leaving the EU is a sensible idea.

93 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Aug 04 2017, 11:34

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Looking on the bright side post brexit we will be eating chlorine washed chicken and meat full of antibiotics, antihistamines and growth hormones banned in the EU because Uncle Sam wouldn't have it any other way.

94 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Aug 05 2017, 19:22

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
JAH wrote:
gloswhite wrote:XM, whereas I can see your desire to have us chained to a lumbering, unelected, and some say doomed, entity, have you not considered that they are not the be all and end all of world trade and politics? Just because we are neighbours, doesn't mean we have to follow slavishly, the same ideals and political views as the EU. its fairly well known, that we had very little voice in any major decisions for the past few years anyway. They have our money, and our commitments, but tend not to entertain our views or ideals. 
Tell me, in a couple of sentences, leaving out the supposed financial benefits/drawbacks, how it is better for us in the EU ?

EASY TRAVEL
LIVING ABROAD
EQUAL PAY & NON-DISCRIMINATION
PAID LEAVE
FOREIGN STUDY
CHEAP FLIGHTS
CHEAP TELEPHONE CALLS
CONSUMER PROTECTION
FOOD LABELLING
CLEAN RIVERS AND CLEAN AIR
Did nobody ever tell you its rude to shout ? 
What makes you think all the above will finish? (your list looks a bit like me,me,me) There are enough people in this country to ensure these things still go through. We won't become a third world country overnight, and if you had a bit of common sense, you would realise that.

95 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Aug 05 2017, 19:29

karlypants

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
gloswhite wrote:
JAH wrote:
gloswhite wrote:XM, whereas I can see your desire to have us chained to a lumbering, unelected, and some say doomed, entity, have you not considered that they are not the be all and end all of world trade and politics? Just because we are neighbours, doesn't mean we have to follow slavishly, the same ideals and political views as the EU. its fairly well known, that we had very little voice in any major decisions for the past few years anyway. They have our money, and our commitments, but tend not to entertain our views or ideals. 
Tell me, in a couple of sentences, leaving out the supposed financial benefits/drawbacks, how it is better for us in the EU ?

EASY TRAVEL
LIVING ABROAD
EQUAL PAY & NON-DISCRIMINATION
PAID LEAVE
FOREIGN STUDY
CHEAP FLIGHTS
CHEAP TELEPHONE CALLS
CONSUMER PROTECTION
FOOD LABELLING
CLEAN RIVERS AND CLEAN AIR
Did nobody ever tell you its rude to shout ? 
What makes you think all the above will finish? (your list looks a bit like me,me,me) There are enough people in this country to ensure these things still go through. We won't become a third world country overnight, and if you had a bit of common sense, you would realise that.
:clap:

96 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Aug 05 2017, 19:37

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
xmiles wrote:Here are 10 benefits of EU membership that we are now giving up:
freedom of UK citizens to live, work and retire anywhere in EU;
access to the Single Market with no tariff barriers or customs procedures;
the EU Working Time Directive which introduced paid holidays for 2 million British employees who did not receive any paid holiday at all and capped the working week at 48 hours;
unified approach to safety regulations regarding drugs, medicine and food labelling;
better rights for workers;
stronger challenge to tax avoiding multi-nationals;
massive subsidies to farming and various poorer regions;
the Good Friday agreement in Ireland;
lots of jobs as various firms migrate their offices/headquarters to the EU.

It is a xenophobic fantasy to describe us as the "whipping boys of Europe". Do you honestly believe that?

We can trade with whoever we want now but we will be in a weaker position to negotiate after we leave. Trump believes in putting America first and why would the EU give us better trading terms than we currently have?

Agreed on all your list, but what makes you think it will all end overnight ?
'Xenophobic' ? really ? Is that instead of calling me racist ? Hhhmmm. 
If you can give me an example of when we managed to push changes through the EU, that mainly benefited the UK, and wasn't either vetoed, or voted down, let me know. Our only worth to the EU, is our money, as politically, we are ignored. The current situation has now given other countries the opportunity to openly insult us. 
I'm fast losing faith with our negotiating team, piss poor performances that are now picked up, and commented on by our so-called 'friends'. Now that we have shown a shambolic front, and we somehow remained in the EU, how would we be seen, and treated ? I think we've shot our bolt with the EU, whatever happens, and trying to cling on to their coat-tails will reduce our standing, and future dealings with all of them.

97 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Aug 05 2017, 20:42

bwfc71

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
gloswhite wrote:
xmiles wrote:Here are 10 benefits of EU membership that we are now giving up:
freedom of UK citizens to live, work and retire anywhere in EU;
access to the Single Market with no tariff barriers or customs procedures;
the EU Working Time Directive which introduced paid holidays for 2 million British employees who did not receive any paid holiday at all and capped the working week at 48 hours;
unified approach to safety regulations regarding drugs, medicine and food labelling;
better rights for workers;
stronger challenge to tax avoiding multi-nationals;
massive subsidies to farming and various poorer regions;
the Good Friday agreement in Ireland;
lots of jobs as various firms migrate their offices/headquarters to the EU.

It is a xenophobic fantasy to describe us as the "whipping boys of Europe". Do you honestly believe that?

We can trade with whoever we want now but we will be in a weaker position to negotiate after we leave. Trump believes in putting America first and why would the EU give us better trading terms than we currently have?

Agreed on all your list, but what makes you think it will all end overnight ?
'Xenophobic' ? really ? Is that instead of calling me racist ? Hhhmmm. 
If you can give me an example of when we managed to push changes through the EU, that mainly benefited the UK, and wasn't either vetoed, or voted down, let me know. Our only worth to the EU, is our money, as politically, we are ignored. The current situation has now given other countries the opportunity to openly insult us. 
I'm fast losing faith with our negotiating team, piss poor performances that are now picked up, and commented on by our so-called 'friends'. Now that we have shown a shambolic front, and we somehow remained in the EU, how would we be seen, and treated ? I think we've shot our bolt with the EU, whatever happens, and trying to cling on to their coat-tails will reduce our standing, and future dealings with all of them.

Politically we are not ignored but like any true democracy the majority vote wins.   It seems that just because little old UK does not get its way then the EU is non-democratic!

What EU officials re now seeing is that the leaders of the UK are on a self-destruct mission to leave the EU and the EU officials are just setting out their goals, whilst the UK are not showing their hand - mainly because there is no hand to show.  Even from our point of view we do seem to be like children not getting their own way - and we are now crying because f it thus trying to make the EU officials give in to our blackmail ideologies of leaving the EU and the deal that the UK wants (again it is down the other 27 other countries whether the deal is agreed or not as it only takes 1 country to say to the deal  and then UK is scuppered without actually walking away - true democracy in action.

Why should the UK be listened to now, UK has given formal notice that we are leaving and as such the EU needs to concentrate on other matters on seeking deals for themselves - rather than giving 100% attention to UK - the irritant of Europe.   Why else would the EU countries be growing far quicker than the UK now, and the UK influence across Europe (including non-EU/EFTA countries) as well in the G8/G20 countries is weakening fast.

If we walk away from the EU with no deal, or if we continue to be the petulant child in any relationship with the EU then no other serious country will want to trade with us in the fear that we walk away from it or become a nuisance in the del - hence we will end up in a situation that the only deals we will get will not be in our favour and it will worsen and weaken, even further, our wold influence and not help the UK financially and push us deeper into debt into a situation that Greece never reached.

Lets not forget that when we joined the EU/EEC we were on our knees and both IMF and World Bank had  stopped lending to us, our Credit Reference was one of the worst in the world and global powers had warned about lending to the UK in case we defaulted or even worse became a bankrupt nation.   This Brexit is now taking us down that road again!

98 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Aug 05 2017, 20:55

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I went to Norway a couple of years ago.

I didn't see people fighting in the streets over the last Haribo, I didn't see people bringing their cash in wheelbarrows to buy one loaf of bread, and I didn't see a country in ruin.

Guess what, they're a European country who aren't in the EU.

99 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Aug 05 2017, 22:37

xmiles

avatar
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Natasha Whittam wrote:I went to Norway a couple of years ago.

I didn't see people fighting in the streets over the last Haribo, I didn't see people bringing their cash in wheelbarrows to buy one loaf of bread, and I didn't see a country in ruin.

Guess what, they're a European country who aren't in the EU.

Norway is indeed a very nice country to live in. However Norway follows most single-market rules drawn up in Brussels and must accept the free movement of EU workers. It also has no say in drawing up these rules and rubber-stamps legislation handed down from the EU. When the EU created the passport-free Schengen zone, for example, Norway had to join to avoid a 1,000-mile hard border with Sweden. It has signed up to agencies that foster co-operation in anti-terrorism, research and defence. Pressed by Brussels, it pays whopping grants to support research projects and civil society in eastern Europe; its per-head payments to the EU approach those of Britain. It joins EU-starred military missions abroad and accepts refugees according to formulae crunched in Brussels.

There is more in this article published by The Economist: https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiDjrqXhcHVAhVNblAKHQlcCLEQFggyMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.economist.com%2Fnews%2Feurope%2F21716039-sooner-or-later-britain-will-face-trade-offs-between-sovereignty-and-access-norways-deal&usg=AFQjCNGhF_PI7z3XDrE0NzKqvAxjchXwwA

100 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Aug 05 2017, 23:17

wanderlust

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Natasha Whittam wrote:I went to Norway a couple of years ago.

I didn't see people fighting in the streets over the last Haribo, I didn't see people bringing their cash in wheelbarrows to buy one loaf of bread, and I didn't see a country in ruin.

Guess what, they're a European country who aren't in the EU.
This statement sums up the naivety that allowed the media to push the leave agenda through. Norway and the other Scandinavian states have a massively lower cost base than the UK so it's a more profitable nation than the UK and therefore will never run out of Haribo's whilst they are in demand.

You have to look at income and GDP and divide it by population to get even the most basic "profitability" figure and whilst we have a massive GDP compared to most countries we also have a massive aging population with high unemployment and a skills shortage to pay for.

Norway is the 13th richest country per capita in the world. The UK is 38th. Ireland and the Falkland Islands are richer per capita than the UK.

Which is why our stupidly naive negotiators will get laughed off the park.

101 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Aug 06 2017, 08:36

bwfc71

avatar
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Natasha Whittam wrote:I went to Norway a couple of years ago.

I didn't see people fighting in the streets over the last Haribo, I didn't see people bringing their cash in wheelbarrows to buy one loaf of bread, and I didn't see a country in ruin.

Guess what, they're a European country who aren't in the EU.

They are part of EFTA which means they pay towards the EU, whilst getting no money back in form of grants, and they have to follow all EU main principles such as freedom of work, people and movement.  Therefore to say they are not in the EU is correct but they pay to be part of the single market and allow EU laws.   Why would they need to fight in the streets when they have access to the largest single market I the world and thanks to a low cost base actually make a financial success?

UK has the best option of all European countries, with regards to the EU especially with the many opt-outs we have which no other European country enjoys, and we are no throwing back in their faces - just how do you think other trading nations will feel trading with us knowing that we can break contracts at any time - UK will be a country not to be trusted with trade,

102 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Aug 06 2017, 09:58

xmiles

avatar
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
I think Vince Cable makes a good point:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40842017

103 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Aug 06 2017, 10:09

gloswhite

avatar
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
71, I like the cool, calm, and collected way you put forward your points. I don't necessarily agree with them all, but its nice to see.

Regarding Vince Cables remarks, I think he's using very emotive language that doesn't really help, however, having said that, he does make a some good points. I don't believe we, the older generation, have deliberately 'shafted' the younger ones, and oddly enough, some, myself included, feel that we will all be better off in the longer term. I have two daughters, 30 and 37, and I wouldn't deliberately throw a spanner in the works of daily living, if it was to severely affect them, but I would stand up for what I feel is better in the long term, and my age gives me a different perspective on the methods and outcomes. Buying into the 'one size fits all' logic of the EU just doesn't sit right with me.

104 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Aug 06 2017, 10:16

Bwfc1958

avatar
Tinned Toms - You know it makes sense!
gloswhite wrote:71, I like the cool, calm, and collected way you put forward your points. I don't necessarily agree with them all, but its nice to see.
Roughly translated - 

71, you're talking bollocks. You have constructed your bullshit in a very articulate way, but it's bullshit all the same. 

Very Happy

105 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Aug 06 2017, 10:19

xmiles

avatar
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
I, like my two sons aged 36 and 34, feel that leaving the EU is a big mistake. As for it being "better in the long term", as Keynes said "in the long run we are all dead".

106 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Aug 06 2017, 10:21

gloswhite

avatar
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
58, have you thought of a job in diplomacy ? (just like 71) Very Happy

107 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Aug 06 2017, 10:25

gloswhite

avatar
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
xmiles wrote:I, like my two sons aged 36 and 34, feel that leaving the EU is a big mistake. As for it being "better in the long term", as Keynes said "in the long run we are all dead".
XM, If we all thought like that, we wouldn't do anything. With my daughters, one is for Brexit, and one against. The one for, says nothing, whilst the one against, like me, is depressed about the speed and direction of the discussion, but still feels its right.
Sounds like you're on a downer this morning XM, cheer up, were going to win today  Very Happy

108 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Aug 06 2017, 10:43

xmiles

avatar
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
gloswhite wrote:
xmiles wrote:I, like my two sons aged 36 and 34, feel that leaving the EU is a big mistake. As for it being "better in the long term", as Keynes said "in the long run we are all dead".
XM, If we all thought like that, we wouldn't do anything. With my daughters, one is for Brexit, and one against. The one for, says nothing, whilst the one against, like me, is depressed about the speed and direction of the discussion, but still feels its right.
Sounds like you're on a downer this morning XM, cheer up, were going to win today  Very Happy

Beating Leeds would certainly cheer me up!

109 Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Aug 07 2017, 10:56

xmiles

avatar
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Anybody surprised?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40846830

110 Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Aug 07 2017, 11:35

Norpig

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Jussi Jääskeläinen
Jussi Jääskeläinen
Not surprised at all, blame Thatcher Lite for calling an unneccessary election and weakening her own position and the country as a whole.

111 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Aug 08 2017, 15:07

wanderlust

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
xmiles wrote:Anybody surprised?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40846830
On the day that true figure for UK payments to the EU is released (less than half the number that appeared on the Leave campaign bus) it's surprising that they are blaming the poor start to negotiations on the Cabinet disagreeing on what we actually want. 

Could there be a more compelling case for the Government to admit that Brexit is an absolute shambles? As well as a disgrace.

112 Re: Brexit negotiations on Tue Aug 15 2017, 10:15

wanderlust

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
After confirming last week that the UK will be leaving the customs union, UK negotiators now proposing a "temporary" customs union during Brexit.

Assuming that the penny still hasn't dropped, presumably they think this will be to buy some time whilst they seek to negotiate 27 separate tariff deals?

I don't see why they can't try to secure a bloc deal covering all of the EU whilst they are sat at the table with them. Technically that would mean we have left the customs union in line with the current political dogma but would have the advantage of minimising the impact of the coming administrative nightmare for British exporters. Obviously the best way forward would be to stick with the excellent deals we already have but that wouldn't be politically acceptable to the Tories so I guess the nation will just have to take the economic hit in order to secure the Tories' political posture.

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