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Bolton Nuts » BWFC » Wandering Minds » How many Tories are there?

How many Tories are there?

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1 How many Tories are there? on Fri Jan 05 2018, 15:47

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo

2 Re: How many Tories are there? on Fri Jan 05 2018, 16:01

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Obsessed.

3 Re: How many Tories are there? on Fri Jan 05 2018, 16:12

Norpig

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Lets face it, who would want to admit they are a Tory party member? It's only slightly less embarrassing than admitting you have genital warts.

4 Re: How many Tories are there? on Fri Jan 05 2018, 16:14

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Norpig wrote:Lets face it, who would want to admit they are a Tory party member? It's only slightly less embarrassing than admitting you have genital warts.

Who gave you genital warts?

5 Re: How many Tories are there? on Fri Jan 05 2018, 16:19

Norpig

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Nat how could you forget our night of passion? Mine took ages to go, how about yours?

6 Re: How many Tories are there? on Fri Jan 05 2018, 17:21

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
@Norpig wrote:Nat how could you forget our night of passion? Mine took ages to go, how about yours?

Laughing

7 Re: How many Tories are there? on Fri Jan 05 2018, 22:27

Angry Dad

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Ha Ha what a load of cock.

8 Re: How many Tories are there? on Fri Jan 05 2018, 23:16

wessy

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Andy Walker
Andy Walker
I wish there was a lot less. Don't know how they sleep at night.

9 Re: How many Tories are there? on Sat Jan 06 2018, 09:47

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@wessy wrote:I wish there was a lot less. Don't know how they sleep at night.

Very well. We haven't declared war under the Tories.

10 Re: How many Tories are there? on Sat Jan 06 2018, 10:02

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
@Natasha Whittam wrote:
@wessy wrote:I wish there was a lot less. Don't know how they sleep at night.

Very well. We haven't declared war under the Tories.

Is that all that matters?

11 Re: How many Tories are there? on Sat Jan 06 2018, 10:13

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@xmiles wrote:Is that all that matters?

No, but it's bigger than everything else.

Sending soldiers to die for a pointless war is pretty bad leadership, maybe you'll agree?

On second thoughts, don't bother, we all know you foam at the mouth at the mere mention of Brexit, and nothing else exists in your life.



12 Re: How many Tories are there? on Sat Jan 06 2018, 10:20

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
@Natasha Whittam wrote:
@xmiles wrote:Is that all that matters?

No, but it's bigger than everything else.

Sending soldiers to die for a pointless war is pretty bad leadership, maybe you'll agree?

On second thoughts, don't bother, we all know you foam at the mouth at the mere mention of Brexit, and nothing else exists in your life.




Sending soldiers to die for a pointless war is terrible leadership and I opposed the unjustified invasion of Iraq in 2003. I also thought we should have withdrawn our troops from Afghanistan immediately after overthrowing the Taliban government.

13 Re: How many Tories are there? on Sat Jan 06 2018, 10:37

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@xmiles wrote:
Sending soldiers to die for a pointless war is terrible leadership and I opposed the unjustified invasion of Iraq in 2003. I also thought we should have withdrawn our troops from Afghanistan immediately after overthrowing the Taliban government.

Fair comment, so why would you want to risk another Labour government?

14 Re: How many Tories are there? on Sat Jan 06 2018, 11:35

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
@Natasha Whittam wrote:
@xmiles wrote:
Sending soldiers to die for a pointless war is terrible leadership and I opposed the unjustified invasion of Iraq in 2003. I also thought we should have withdrawn our troops from Afghanistan immediately after overthrowing the Taliban government.

Fair comment, so why would you want to risk another Labour government?

Because those wars were down to Blair and Brown rather than the Labour party generally and in just about every area of policy Labour offer more attractive policies than the Tories. To take just one example look at the level of funding needed by the NHS.

However the Labour party is far from perfect and I have no respect for that hypocritical idiot Corbyn.

15 Re: How many Tories are there? on Sat Jan 06 2018, 13:27

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@xmiles wrote:
@Natasha Whittam wrote:
@xmiles wrote:
Sending soldiers to die for a pointless war is terrible leadership and I opposed the unjustified invasion of Iraq in 2003. I also thought we should have withdrawn our troops from Afghanistan immediately after overthrowing the Taliban government.

Fair comment, so why would you want to risk another Labour government?

Because those wars were down to Blair and Brown rather than the Labour party generally and in just about every area of policy Labour offer more attractive policies than the Tories. 
Those wars were down to the protection of strategic American interests and our "special relationship".

16 Re: How many Tories are there? on Sat Jan 06 2018, 13:42

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Sadly people still persist with the delusion that there is a "special relationship". There isn't. The Americans do nothing for us that is not in their own interests and never have.

17 Re: How many Tories are there? on Sat Jan 06 2018, 14:42

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@xmiles wrote:Sadly people still persist with the delusion that there is a "special relationship". There isn't. The Americans do nothing for us that is not in their own interests and never have.
We still kowtow to the Americans and are tied to them economically and militarily whether we like it or not.

18 Re: How many Tories are there? on Sat Jan 06 2018, 17:41

rammywhite

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Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
@xmiles wrote:
@Natasha Whittam wrote:
@xmiles wrote:
Sending soldiers to die for a pointless war is terrible leadership and I opposed the unjustified invasion of Iraq in 2003. I also thought we should have withdrawn our troops from Afghanistan immediately after overthrowing the Taliban government.

Fair comment, so why would you want to risk another Labour government?

Because those wars were down to Blair and Brown rather than the Labour party generally and in just about every area of policy Labour offer more attractive policies than the Tories. To take just one example look at the level of funding needed by the NHS.

However the Labour party is far from perfect and I have no respect for that hypocritical idiot Corbyn.

Corbyn himself isn't a problem- he's a nice old bloke who hasn't really moved on from the sixth form politics of his youth.
It's the wrecking balls Watson and McDonnel that he brings with him  who are the problem and worst of all Comrade Len McLuskey in the background pulling their strings

19 Re: How many Tories are there? on Sat Jan 06 2018, 17:57

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
@rammywhite wrote:
@xmiles wrote:
@Natasha Whittam wrote:
@xmiles wrote:
Sending soldiers to die for a pointless war is terrible leadership and I opposed the unjustified invasion of Iraq in 2003. I also thought we should have withdrawn our troops from Afghanistan immediately after overthrowing the Taliban government.

Fair comment, so why would you want to risk another Labour government?

Because those wars were down to Blair and Brown rather than the Labour party generally and in just about every area of policy Labour offer more attractive policies than the Tories. To take just one example look at the level of funding needed by the NHS.

However the Labour party is far from perfect and I have no respect for that hypocritical idiot Corbyn.

Corbyn himself isn't a problem- he's a nice old bloke who hasn't really moved on from the sixth form politics of his youth.
It's the wrecking balls Watson and McDonnel that he brings with him  who are the problem and worst of all Comrade Len McLuskey in the background pulling their strings

But which party is more likely to save the NHS? Just compare the funding provided by Labour and the Tories over the last 30 years.

20 Re: How many Tories are there? on Sat Jan 06 2018, 18:39

rammywhite

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Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
@xmiles wrote:
@rammywhite wrote:
@xmiles wrote:
@Natasha Whittam wrote:
@xmiles wrote:
Sending soldiers to die for a pointless war is terrible leadership and I opposed the unjustified invasion of Iraq in 2003. I also thought we should have withdrawn our troops from Afghanistan immediately after overthrowing the Taliban government.

Fair comment, so why would you want to risk another Labour government?

Because those wars were down to Blair and Brown rather than the Labour party generally and in just about every area of policy Labour offer more attractive policies than the Tories. To take just one example look at the level of funding needed by the NHS.

However the Labour party is far from perfect and I have no respect for that hypocritical idiot Corbyn.

Corbyn himself isn't a problem- he's a nice old bloke who hasn't really moved on from the sixth form politics of his youth.
It's the wrecking balls Watson and McDonnel that he brings with him  who are the problem and worst of all Comrade Len McLuskey in the background pulling their strings

But which party is more likely to save the NHS? Just compare the funding provided by Labour and the Tories over the last 30 years.

I don't think either of them can save the NHS in the sense that most people expect. Just throwing more and more money at it won't save it as the demands on the NHS caused by increasing population, the incidence of much more expensive drugs and equipment, an expectation on the part of large sections of the population that they can transfer responsibility for their health to NHS professionals for immediate, successful and expensive treatment, an increasingly elderly population and the acknowledgement' of more and more difficult to identify and treat mental illnesses- all of these are putting inordinate pressure on an already hugely expensive service.
There is a real question about whether the NHS, as envisaged and founded by Aneurin Bevan , with a free service for all at the point of delivery, can be sustained in todays world.
I don't think it can and I think in the not too distant future there will need to be a radical rethink of how the NHS actually operates .What those change will be, I don't know.
 It might be much more reliance on private provision through insurance ( like give tax relief for BUPA and tell everyone with private insurance that they can't use the NHS unless they pay) or using overseas services for some things ( like going to Budapest to get your teeth done) or a serious hypothecated (ring fenced) tax on some companies like tobacco, sugary drinks and alcohol producers, or the permanent seizure of all the assets of convicted drug dealers. Stuff like that  is absolutely loaded with immense problems,  but they might be at least a partial answer- but I think that a fully funded NHS which we all want might now be something we can't have unless we have huge swingeing increases in tax, something that many healthy people might not want to subscribe to, to  'subsidise' less healthy NHS clients.
I'm not being political here as I've personally had fantastic ( and expensive ) treatment at Christies over the past few months- but the economic arguments for the NHS we would all like to see are becoming much more difficult to sustain.

21 Re: How many Tories are there? on Sat Jan 06 2018, 18:58

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
I take your point rammy but there is no doubt that we spend a lot less on health than any comparable European country. Yes there needs to be some serious thinking about the future of the NHS but under the Tories the NHS has been starved of funds. The 1% that they put into the NHS every year doesn't even match inflation let alone the increasing demands of an aging population. The Tories are systematically destroying the NHs so that they sell off the profitable bits to their chums.

22 Re: How many Tories are there? on Sat Jan 06 2018, 20:02

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@rammywhite wrote:Corbyn himself isn't a problem- he's a nice old bloke who hasn't really moved on from the sixth form politics of his youth.
It's the wrecking balls Watson and McDonnel that he brings with him  who are the problem and worst of all Comrade Len McLuskey in the background pulling their strings

Watson beens sidelined since the failed coup, so can't agree with that. McDonnells economic ideas at least provide answers to the real problems of inequality and lack of growth, continued austerity is only enhancing those issues.

McCluskey pulling the strings, a fair point in as much as any poltical party is beholden to their benefactor - as Unite are the largest union you could make an argument that McCluskey holds more sway than most. But the main driver behind the party now is it's membership (the largest in Europe). 

It's an easy choice between a party driven by unions and members, or one by shady billionaires looking to undermine democracy?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/dec/30/company-boss-david-ord-tory-donor-receives-knighthood

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/nov/05/lord-ashcroft-offshore-trust-wealth-tory-peer-paradise-papers

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2015/apr/01/tory-100-industry-captains-party-donors-tax-avoiders

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/lobbyists-linked-to-100000-tory-donations-7593588.html

23 Re: How many Tories are there? on Sat Jan 06 2018, 20:04

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
When you're the opposition it's easy to spout a load of bollocks. It doesn't matter who is in charge, things will not change until a radical plan is agreed upon. And sadly, with the way our politics is in 2018, that will never happen. Tories say one thing, Labour disagree, and vice versa.

24 Re: How many Tories are there? on Sat Jan 06 2018, 21:35

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
What radical change are you after then Nat?

25 Re: How many Tories are there? on Sat Jan 06 2018, 22:08

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@T.R.O.Y wrote:What radical change are you after then Nat?

I've already stated my radical plan - an end to free treatment for non-life threatening conditions.

26 Re: How many Tories are there? on Sat Jan 06 2018, 22:31

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
@Natasha Whittam wrote:When you're the opposition it's easy to spout a load of bollocks. It doesn't matter who is in charge, things will not change until a radical plan is agreed upon. And sadly, with the way our politics is in 2018, that will never happen. Tories say one thing, Labour disagree, and vice versa.

It's not about what they say it's about what they do.

Tories restrict spending increases on NHS to 1% every year which means less every year in real terms whereas when Labour are in power they give far more money to the NHS.

27 Re: How many Tories are there? on Sat Jan 06 2018, 23:59

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Tories like to claim the NHS has been in a continuous state of crisis, caused by external factors and no government could solve the issue. This is a distortion of the facts.

Under Labour performance targets were (on the whole) being met, and investment was keeping up with demand - it’s as simple as that. 

Yes healthcare was still a political issue (it is in any developed country), but what we have seen since 2010 is a sustained corrosion of the service.

28 Re: How many Tories are there? on Sun Jan 07 2018, 08:47

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Stop trying to make out the NHS was all hunky-dory under Labour, it wasn't. The NHS has been in a mess for 30 years or more.

On a happier note, I see May has decided against another vote on fox hunting - she clearly values my vote.

29 Re: How many Tories are there? on Sun Jan 07 2018, 09:46

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Exactly, you prove my point ignore the facts and just claim it was as bad under Labour providing no supporting evidence. 

I'm not suggesting that the NHS was perfect, in fact I think PFI has opened up a very dangerous area which private companies can exploit. 

But when you look at the state of the NHS when Labour came in, and then what they left behind the improvement is clear. Look at waiting times, and the article below from the FT. Yes not a perfect approach, but they had a radical plan, instigated it and got results. 

How new Labour succeeded with NHS policy
https://www.ft.com/content/168e1278-2b24-11df-93d8-00144feabdc0

The government have no reform policies for the NHS, they're throwing the minimum they can get away with at it and watching it burn. You know that as well as I do.

30 Re: How many Tories are there? on Sun Jan 07 2018, 12:33

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Nat never responds with facts. Just abuse and a few repeated slogans and cliches.

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